Materialism versus theism

[paul becke]

When it comes to scientific ineptitude, indeed, vacuity, it's difficult to beat materialism.

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dc8z67wz_5fwz42dg9&pli=1

 

[Socrastein]

Paul you seem to be posting a lot of links and pasting works written by others. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be more interested in hearing YOUR thoughts and opinions on the subject matter in question. If people want to read articles and websites they tend to surf around on Google and Wikipedia. Forums are geared more toward personal discussions and debates.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be more interested in hearing YOUR thoughts and opinions on the subject matter in question.

So you can vent them, ridicule them, send them to FSTDT,* and/or consider Paul 'backwater'?

(Just asking [from experience].)

* Do they give out awards or something to the one(s) submitting the best entry(ies)?

 

[Socrastein]

So you can vent them, ridicule them, send them to FSTDT,* and/or consider Paul 'backwater'?

(Just asking [from experience].)

* Do they give out awards or something to the one(s) submitting the best entry(ies)?

You seem to be making some rather negative and unjustified assumptions friend. I think my pointing out that online forums are geared toward personal discussion, not so much for reading articles in private, is reason enough for me to ask for someone's personal thoughts and opinions on a topic on which they've offered none. I can't see any good reason to try and read my mind and attribute other intentions to my words that are not actually stated or even implied.

This is called poisoning the well, and the ironic thing about the way you've done it is you're preemptively ridiculing what you anticipate my motivations are because you think there's a good chance I will ridicule Paul's personal contribution to a discussion of materialism. You're actually doing to me what you think I'll possibly do to Paul!

Let's do less mind reading and more reading of one's actual statements. As I said, if I wanted to read articles on materialism (or any other topic) I would be on Google and Wikipedia and other similar sites. Instead, I peruse forums when looking for interpersonal discussions. This is reason enough for my request that Paul link less and express his own opinions more.

 

[AV1611VET]

You seem to be making some rather negative and unjustified assumptions friend.

Is that why I worded it as a question, friend?

ETA: And you might want to fix this in your profile, unless it's a joke:

Occupation: Proffesional Human Being

It looks unprofessional.

 

[Farinata]

More babble. Seriously, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you link to articles with statements like this?

5. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. -

7. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9) -

16. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. -

Do your faith the favor of believing it on faith. Don't try to reverse engineer science into it; you'll only end up embarrassing your religion.

 

[thaumaturgy]

So you can vent them, ridicule them, send them to FSTDT,* and/or consider Paul 'backwater'?

(Just asking [from experience].)

* Do they give out awards or something to the one(s) submitting the best entry(ies)?

Maybe people wouldn't do that to certain posters if they didn't say such funny things.

Or maybe you all could band together and put up a website in which atheists say stupid things about religion, like real howlers. I honestly think that would be funny and probably pretty good. Many atheists know more about religion than fundamentailists know about science, but still there have got to be some real howlers out there from atheists on religious topics.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Paul you seem to be posting a lot of links and pasting works written by others. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be more interested in hearing YOUR thoughts and opinions on the subject matter in question. If people want to read articles and websites they tend to surf around on Google and Wikipedia. Forums are geared more toward personal discussions and debates.

I agree. To merely post a link and slag it without some sort of context (especially a book link) is like posting: "Yeah I went to the library the other day and saw a buncha books about things I find stoopid. Ha ha!" And then calling it a "thread".

Granted, it almost always generates a thread but it has no value certainly the OP only invites people to start slamming each other over unrelated topics.

Materials is a rich topic of discussion and at least Farinata put a valiant effort into quoting something.

But frankly I fail to see anything particularly humorous about materialism as foundational start.

At least materialism has going for it "observation". We only know that which we can experience. Yes, Quantum Mechanics has opened the door to really, really strange things about our fundamental understanding of the reality in which we live.

But from that it does not follow that there's any "religious" overtones whatsoever. If QM were required to understand God then God would never have been known and would probably still never be "known".

How could a bunch of people who think "speaking in tongues" is giving them insight into God's nature possibly understand the mathematical necessities that give rise to the truly strange stuff in QM?

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe people wouldn't do that to certain posters if they didn't say such funny things.

Maybe they wouldn't say 'such funny things' if they weren't pressed to come up with stuff that the asker knows isn't in the Bible.

Like continually being asked, "Where did the Flood waters go?"

Or maybe you all could band together and put up a website in which atheists say stupid things about religion, like real howlers.

I would be more than happy to make my contributions:

1. The Hebrews were ignorant, Bronze Age, goat herders.
2. Israel is not the Promised Land, since God doesn't exist.
3. Christians should be crusading, witch hunting, and/or inquisitioning.
4. Islamists should be crusading against their 'Great Satan'.
5. I can't wait until tomorrow's science proves today's science wrong.
6. Science isn't a religion.
7. There are 'weak atheists' and 'strong atheists'. The difference between strong and weak atheism is a subtle and very important logic point.
8. Atheism isn't a religion.
9. You're not an anumismatist, so I'm not an atheist.
10. Where does black become white on this grayscale?
11. What missing links? we have thousands of them, if not millions!
12. What I believe is called 'science', what you believe is called 'religion'.
13. If God exists then he must relish human blood.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Maybe they wouldn't say 'such funny things' if they weren't pressed to come up with stuff that the asker knows isn't in the Bible.

Well, to be fair humanity has written a lot of stuff other than the Bible.

I would be more than happy to make my contributions:

1. The Hebrews were ignorant, Bronze Age, goat herders.
2. Israel is not the Promised Land, since God doesn't exist.

No. 1 is admittedly silly and ignorant. #2 is arguably the reason so many people die today. If God exists then he must relish human blood. Because we have a couple different religions claiming holy land status and we see them fighting over it for hundreds and hundreds of years. At what point does God step in and say "Hey, actually I meant it was holy for the Jews...not the Muslims, so stop with the strapping bombs on yourself!"?

1. Christians should be crusading, witch hunting, and/or inquisitioning.

No one says Christians should be crusading only that they were driven to crusade by religious organizations that made them think it was going to serve a religious purpose. Incorrectly or not, it was used and people who were not particularly well educated did what they thought was "right" based on this religious indoctrination (remember this was at a time when few people were literate enough to read). And indeed a lot of crusades may have been motivated more by politics at the top, but you don't get medieval people to go mincing off into the desert to die for some esoteric point. And indeed, not all crusades were bald-faced political plays. Some of them were intent on destroying heresy. (In other words "Crusading" was a bit more complex, containing both ideals of "piety" and ideals of political and worldly gain).



Witch hunting? Well, in a time when people believed in witches as real powers for evil one need only look at Ex 22:18 to see why that would be considered a viable religious stance. Spin it as you like to explain why you or most modern people wouldn't go on a witch hunt, it doesn't make any less real a part of Christianity why people in the past did.

1. Science isn't a religion.

Well, in order for words to have "meaning" it is good to know what something isn't as well as what something "is".


If you dislike what science says and you, yourself, have religious faith, then calling science equivalent to religious faith is to effectively denigrate religious faith. It's the "Well so are you..." schoolyard taunt.

1. There are 'weak atheists' and 'strong atheists'.

Well, this isn't actually the kind of thing I was talking about...I mean it should be "funny" and "factually incorrect" or at least stupid.


The difference between strong and weak atheism is a subtle and very important logic point. (It's a part of inferential reasoning that is actually quite important in a number of areas, not just religion, atheism, etc.)



Now if you find "logic" to be hilariously funny then I can see why you'd include this one.

1. Atheism isn't a religion.

You've heard it before: Atheism is a religion like 'not collecting stamps' is a hobby.

1. What missing links? we have thousands of them, if not millions!

We do have lots of missing links, it's just a game with creationists because for every missing link you provide they now need one on either side. It's Xenos paradox.



Again, if you find logic and philosophy "funny" I can see why your website would have lots of things in it.


But sadly it wouldn't actually be funny....it would really mostly be sad.


I was hoping you could find a few more along the lines of atheists mischaracterizing what the Bible actually says, not examples where you disagree with what history and logic have shown.


But by all means, buy a domain name and start populating it. The sadness will be, in itself, kind of funny. It will be like a "Meta-FSTDT"!

 

[AV1611VET]

If God exists then he must relish human blood.

-- Thanks for another one.

 

[paul becke]

Paul you seem to be posting a lot of links and pasting works written by others. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be more interested in hearing YOUR thoughts and opinions on the subject matter in question. If people want to read articles and websites they tend to surf around on Google and Wikipedia. Forums are geared more toward personal discussions and debates.

Well, Socrastein, many of us do not participate in fora for the purpose of socialising but, rather, for the purpose of learning and sharing beliefs or utter convictions.

In these posts, however, I have been imparting information concerning established scientific discoveries, arrived at and substantiated by empirical research, all of which point unambiguously to the truth of ID and theism, and rebutting even the remotest possibility of materialism as an explanation of the existence of our universe. No empirical evidence has yet been adduced for it, in any case. Ever. Just weird conjectures which owe nothing to empirical science.

I have any amount of time for true agnostics, but little to time for atheists, since they are fundamentally irrational and eristic in their arguments. However, I appreciate your asking this polite question, as I suspect other atheists may share your puzzlement.

On this forum, my aim has never been to address atheists, but rather to help other Christians to realise just how strong the empirical evidence of a Creator God, ID, etc are, and how atheism has effectively been roundly disproved.

Atheist scientists and apologists are simply refusing to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. They have finally reached the mountain top, where the theologians and churchmen have been sitting for thousands of years, but prefer to believe they have been snow-blinded and are looking at a mirage.

You will perhaps have noticed that such evidence is never rebutted by the materialists on that Uncommon Descent forum.

Below the following fascinating quote from a respondent re the fine-tuning, is the article it addresses:

"These certainly are interesting times to be alive given the significant strides we have made in our scientific understanding of the “world”. - One requirement is a strong nuclear force that binds atoms together. If the strength of this force were to decrease by just 1 part in 10,000 billion billion billion billion, the only element left in the universe would be hydrogen.
- If the rate of expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the Universe would have recollapsed before it ever reached its present state.
- Another is the force of gravity.
Imagine a ruler divided into one inch increments, stretched across the entire length of the universe, or 14 billion light years.
So if the ruler represents the possible range for gravity.
The setting for the strength of gravity just happens to be situated in the right place so that life is possible.
If you were to change the force of gravity by moving the setting just one inch compared to the entire width of the universe — the effect on life would be catastrophic."

Uncommon Descent | Either I have lost my mind, or materialists have lost theirs

Until the truth of the markings on the Shroud of Turin were finally verified, the soul source of faith in Christ in human beings had been his own infusion of supernatural grace in us. We face paradoxes/ mysteries as imponderable as those of quantum physics and cosmology. Simply counter-logical, flying in the face of reason, as it is understood by our analytical intelligence. In view of the infinite capacity of human perversity however, strictly speaking, it remains true that reason will not even begin to convince the determined atheist.

But in terms of simple logic, it has been made immeasurably easier to place all one's credence in Christ, the coming-together of theism's jigsaw evidently greatly assisting the journey. Nevertheless, one should not mistake mere credence, mere belief, for Christian faith, which signifies rather commitment to the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity - a commitment of the heart. "Not everyone who calls me, Lord! Lord.....!" But belief solely with the mind can be a start.

 

[thaumaturgy]

-- Thanks for another one.

If that's all you got out of my post, then I'd be proud to be listed on your "sad, sad board".

 

[TerranceL]

So you can vent them, ridicule them, send them to FSTDT,* and/or consider Paul 'backwater'?

(Just asking [from experience].)

* Do they give out awards or something to the one(s) submitting the best entry(ies)?

What AVVET you think you can call for people who disagree with you to be tarred and feathered and get away without it being recognized?

 

[Blayz]

Well, Socrastein, many of us do not participate in fora for the purpose of socialising but, rather, for the purpose of learning and sharing beliefs or utter convictions.

soooo.... what have you learned so far?

In these posts, however, I have been imparting information concerning established scientific discoveries, arrived at and substantiated by empirical research,

This describes nothing you have posted. Most of what you posted is not even wrong.

Just weird conjectures which owe nothing to empirical science.

That, on the other hand, is a very precise description of what you posted.

On this forum, my aim has never been to address atheists, but rather to help other Christians to realise just how strong the empirical evidence of a Creator God, ID, etc are, and how atheism has effectively been roundly disproved.

Might I suggest that you post these nuggets on one of the many forums on this board that we atheists cannot post in (and largely do not read).

Atheist scientists and apologists are simply refusing to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. They have finally reached the mountain top, where the theologians and churchmen have been sitting for thousands of years, but prefer to believe they have been snow-blinded and are looking at a mirage.

Fascinating but entirely incorrect description of me as an atheist scientist. Here's a more correct one: "Atheist scientists do not give a tinker's cuss one way or the other on the question of God, and even less on the opinion of...well anyone really... since the scientific method precludes the question of God, one way or the other, and relies on evidence, not opinion."

fine tuning snipped

load o' PRATT.

On the bright side, a fair bit of that was your thoughts rather than copypasta, so well done there.

 

[paul becke]

soooo.... what have you learned so far?


Might I suggest that you post these nuggets on one of the many forums on this board that we atheists cannot post in (and largely do not read).

I think you mean, 'thread', not 'forum', though I could be mistaken.

Alas, it is not for me to deny you your two cents' on this Christian forum, futile though your suggestion is. Indeed, since it is a Christian forum, I wonder why your wall-to-wall piffle is tolerated on it at all.