Masturbation

[RMDY]

So what you really meant was "Our bodies are a temple of God. We are to not use them for self-gratification to satisfy a lust, under the reason that we need a release unless we're married"?

Saint Paul said:

- ...for married christians to not deprive one another lest they be tempted by Satan
- If people burn with passion, they should marry




Kenj, what is your view of Saint Paul's words?

 

[Kencj]

That's odd -your previous post was changed after my question was asked, yet appears before it, which will probably look confusing since you address my above question in the lower part of your post.

-then you made another post while I made this one! Ack!

 

[Kencj]

Kenj, what is your view of Saint Paul's words?

Would you really want to marry someone entirely for the sex?

 

[david_x]

You just said that you don't consider masturbation a sin, but you do consider "wishful thinking" a sin?

Yes

 

[Zebra1552]

Yes

You've already said you think masturbation is wishful thinking, so you may as well just say masturbation is a sin.

 

[david_x]

Oh? Then why condemn the activities that are a part of it?


It DOES matter because you've put words in my mouth that are not there. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

Prove it.

Address the point I made, please.

You are making a straw man, as that is not what I am arguing.


That's not what lust is. So your questions are a red herring.


And if you claim it is not necessary, this is a claim that, unless backed, falls apart.

I think something got lost in translation, your responses were... not related to what I posted..

 

[david_x]

You've already said you think masturbation is wishful thinking, so you may as well just say masturbation is a sin.

Masturbation is not wishful thinking, I don't remember making that parallel but i'll clear up that.

 

[Zebra1552]

I think something got lost in translation, your responses were... not related to what I posted..

Then you can start over by providing evidence for you claims that:

-Masturbation is unhealthy
-The health benefits of masturbation are disputed

 

[Kencj]

Yes

You realize that that makes no sense at all don't you?
Would you really tell a fellow Christian that all wishful thinking is a sin but masturbation isn't?
Wouldn't they think you were kinda nuts?
Wishful thinking certainly could be for anything, good or ill, couldn't it?

I've already given lots of verses showing that what was translated "lust" in Matthew 5 simply means "strong desire", a word that was applied even to the angels who "strongly desire to look into such things", or "lust" if you will.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

Our bodies are a temple of God. We are to not use them for self-gratification to satisfy a lust, under the reason that we need a release.(1 Cor. 6:19). "You were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."(1 Corinthians 6:20) "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." (Rom. 12:1 NIV)


We are born with a sin-nature, therefore what may seem innocent may be merely ignorance...

Do you realize that some people will use that as an arguement that sex is just for procreation? They put a very high value on self-control in marriage. They believe that should come first otherwise we are acting like lustful heathens or dogs in heat that can't control themselves.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

Masturbation is not wishful thinking, I don't remember making that parallel but i'll clear up that.

There seems to be a theme to your posts that you consider lust to be any form of sexual desire or arousal. Where did you get this definition? Lust is where a person not only has sexual desire for someone but they start putting a plan together to get with them. It's a form of coveting. If someone has sexual desire or arousal for someone but they don't have any intention to get together with them that's not lust.

Our sexual drives, desires, and arousal aren't sinful or dirty things. It's terrible that some misguided people are putting this into the minds of young people. This doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the Gnostic and Greek philosophers who felt that anything dealing with the body was evil and the spirit was good. They created a very strong and negative view of sex and it's still around today. It seems like a lot of young people seem to have these ideas that just about anything sexual is sinful, even with one's spouse. They have a very broad definition of lust, so broad that it more or less covers anything and everything to do with sexuality, and I wonder where they are getting this from?

 

[david_x]

You realize that that makes no sense at all don't you?
Would you really tell a fellow Christian that all wishful thinking is a sin but masturbation isn't?
Wouldn't they think you were kinda nuts?
Wishful thinking certainly could be for anything, good or ill, couldn't it?

I've already given lots of verses showing that what was translated "lust" in Matthew 5 simply means "strong desire", a word that was applied even to the angels who "strongly desire to look into such things", or "lust" if you will.

Lulz, sorry. I assumed that you knew I was talking about ill wishful thinking. It goes back to where I said our thoughts should be about Godly things not sinful things.

Lust is a very useful word you're right. Lust for women is a term however, in this context it means strong desire for sexual relations.

 

[david_x]

Then you can start over by providing evidence for you claims that:

-Masturbation is unhealthy
-The health benefits of masturbation are disputed

First i'll redefine those goals:

-Masturbation is not spiritually/mentally healthy in many contexts.
-The health/unhealthy debate is ongoing. There have been reports and disputes for awhile. I feel it is to early to judge the matter, so I stay out.

I'll get to the "evidence" when I have more time.

 

[Kencj]

Do you realize that some people will use that as an arguement that sex is just for procreation? They put a very high value on self-control in marriage. They believe that should come first otherwise we are acting like lustful heathens or dogs in heat that can't control themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Could you explain it please?
Are you arguing that any sex is sinful unless it's for the specific purpose of procreation?

 

[Johnnz]

There seems to be a theme to your posts that you consider lust to be any form of sexual desire or arousal. Where did you get this definition? Lust is where a person not only has sexual desire for someone but they start putting a plan together to get with them. It's a form of coveting. If someone has sexual desire or arousal for someone but they don't have any intention to get together with them that's not lust.

Our sexual drives, desires, and arousal aren't sinful or dirty things. It's terrible that some misguided people are putting this into the minds of young people. This doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the Gnostic and Greek philosophers who felt that anything dealing with the body was evil and the spirit was good. They created a very strong and negative view of sex and it's still around today. It seems like a lot of young people seem to have these ideas that just about anything sexual is sinful, even with one's spouse. They have a very broad definition of lust, so broad that it more or less covers anything and everything to do with sexuality, and I wonder where they are getting this from?

Preach it. There's a lot more to human sexuality than many Christians have been told. And a lot less to worry about too.

John
NZ

 

[david_x]

There seems to be a theme to your posts that you consider lust to be any form of sexual desire or arousal.

I don't. What we have here is a bias formed by years of paranoid defense...

 

[Kencj]

Our sexual drives, desires, and arousal aren't sinful or dirty things. It's terrible that some misguided people are putting this into the minds of young people. This doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the Gnostic and Greek philosophers who felt that anything dealing with the body was evil and the spirit was good. They created a very strong and negative view of sex and it's still around today. ... I wonder where they are getting this from?

I agree totally and I think you answered your own question!
Check out Plato's Symposium, where he struggles to find a concept of sexual morality in a pagan society, for some of it's earliest written origins. Augustine clearly picks it up again from neo-platonists like Plotinus, who were very influential in his time. And Aristotle played a big part when his writings were rediscovered in the Middle Ages and accepted by the church as authoritative. So it has a very long history.

It does not in any way originate in what Jesus teaches, as everyone should know. His first miracle was to turn water into wine at a wedding, not wine into water at a chastity ring ceremony, like all these "religious leaders" we're cursed with today,

 

[RMDY]

Would you really want to marry someone entirely for the sex?

That's beside the point. I'm not interrogating you or anything, I just want to understand your view concerning what Saint Paul says.

 

[RMDY]

Do you realize that some people will use that as an arguement that sex is just for procreation? They put a very high value on self-control in marriage. They believe that should come first otherwise we are acting like lustful heathens or dogs in heat that can't control themselves.

"Stop depriving one another."
- Saint Paul (1 Cor 7:5)

 

[Kencj]

That's beside the point. I'm not interrogating you or anything, I just want to understand your view concerning what Saint Paul says.

But my question was intended to be the answer.
I wouldn't want to marry someone I didn't love just for the sex, would you?
Not that it hasn't happened plenty of times.