Masturbation

[david_x]

You are the one who has got it wrong. That verse is probably one of the most misunderstood ones in the NT. That verse, properly understood, requires an actual intent given opportunity. It has nothing at all to do with general sexual fantasy constituting lustful thoughts.

Not only that but the use of the word 'adultery' clearly confines its application to a married relationship, and in the context of the issues Jesus was teaching about in that whole section known as the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was referring to a common practice amongst one of the Pharisaical schools at the time, who sanctioned very easy divorce.

The most common teaching on that verse reflects just how 'demonised' human sexuality has become within some Christian circles. Unfortunately that causes a lot of unnecessary angst by far too many Christians as they struggle with their developed sexuality.

John
NZ

It's hardly the only time...

Proverbs 6:Warning against adultery
Job 31:1
1 Timothy 5:1,2

 

[Zebra1552]

Coveting: envy, wanting something that in not yours

If the Greek means coveting, I fail to see how that is any different.

Coveting isn't merely wanting something. It's not just fantasy. Fantasy is fictional, with the recognition that it isn't real. It's not just envy either. It's actually intending to take what isn't yours if you had the chance.

 

[Zebra1552]

David, your best decision would be to stop arguing with these guys. They believe that lust is only a sin if you are purposing in your mind to commit physical adultery. They don't believe that the lust talked about in Matthew means to guard your mind.

Oh, it means to guard your mind, but not against pure fiction. It's to guard it against that which will actually do harm.

 

[Kencj]

You are the one who has got it wrong. That verse is probably one of the most misunderstood ones in the NT....

The most common teaching on that verse reflects just how 'demonised' human sexuality has become within some Christian circles. Unfortunately that causes a lot of unnecessary angst by far too many Christians as they struggle with their developed sexuality.

John
NZ

Amen brudder!

The difference is between the simple desire for sex, which is not wrong, and the desire for what belongs to someone else, which is covetousness.

Fantasy can go either way and sex is only a tiny part of all the things people can fantasize about for good or ill.

 

[david_x]

Coveting isn't merely wanting something. It's not just fantasy. Fantasy is fictional, with the recognition that it isn't real. It's not just envy either. It's actually intending to take what isn't yours if you had the chance.

Your definition is fantasy, I can't find anything like that as a definition for coveting.

 

[Zebra1552]

Your definition is fantasy, I can't find anything like that as a definition for coveting.

Because masturbation doesn't always involve coveting and often involves fantasy.

 

[david_x]

Because masturbation doesn't always involve coveting and often involves fantasy.

Now who's being vague. Examples?

 

[Zebra1552]

Now who's being vague. Examples?

I'm not being vague at all. Fantasy is pure fiction, coveting is not. I went over that with you already.

 

[Kencj]

This is actually kind of an interesting discussion.

For example, if I imagine someone who I intensely dislike being run over by a freight train, is that morally wrong? If I imagine having sex with someone else's wife, is that?

Masturbation doesn't have to involve fantasy about any particular person at all, and in the vast majority of cases, I strongly suspect, doesn't. It's mostly about particular body parts, without going into the details.

 

[Zebra1552]

This is actually kind of an interesting discussion.

For example, if I imagine someone who I intensely dislike being run over by a freight train, is that morally wrong? If I imagine having sex with someone else's wife, is that?

Masturbation doesn't have to involve fantasy about any particular person at all, and in the vast majority of cases, I strongly suspect, doesn't. It's mostly about particular body parts, without going into the details.

Indeed. Er... no details is probably best. Young viewers and all that.

 

[david_x]

I'm not being vague at all. Fantasy is pure fiction, coveting is not. I went over that with you already.

This type of fantasy can never be pure fiction, the people in it are very much real people that you have seen, or at least your feelings are for the real person should you enjoy cartoons. A pure fiction would be in a made up place.

Fantasy would be the imagination part, but fiction would entail invention. Since you did not invent these bodies, or people (God did) you can not claim that it is "pure" fiction though some aspects of it are.

As an example and in no way to draw a parallel between the two, we can compare your fantasy to that of a homicidal individual(HI). You see real people, and desire sex with them since this is unattainable you divert the feeling to masturbation. The HI sees someone, and desires to kill them since this is unattainable he diverts the feelings to homicidal masturbation, video games would be good for this comparison.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is of course those outside of this that touch to the very sensation of the action, etc. This is a gray area scientifically, studies are inconclusive as to it's health benefits. As far as Christians are concerned it is something that could cause another to stumble, be careful with it.

 

[RMDY]

Our bodies are a temple of God. We are to not use them for self-gratification to satisfy a lust, under the reason that we need a release.(1 Cor. 6:19). "You were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."(1 Corinthians 6:20) "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." (Rom. 12:1 NIV)


We are born with a sin-nature, therefore what may seem innocent may be merely ignorance...

 

[Zebra1552]

This type of fantasy can never be pure fiction, the people in it are very much real people that you have seen, or at least your feelings are for the real person should you enjoy cartoons. A pure fiction would be in a made up place.

ALL fiction has SOME basis in reality, that does not make it non-fiction. Red herring, David.

Fantasy would be the imagination part, but fiction would entail invention. Since you did not invent these bodies, or people (God did) you can not claim that it is "pure" fiction though some aspects of it are.

Then Narnia, LOTR, Star Wars, and many, many other fictional things, under your very definition, are not fictional either. You cannot apply your principles to just sexual things and have your principles still be logical.

As an example and in no way to draw a parallel between the two, we can compare your fantasy to that of a homicidal individual(HI). You see real people, and desire sex with them since this is unattainable you divert the feeling to masturbation. The HI sees someone, and desires to kill them since this is unattainable he diverts the feelings to homicidal masturbation, video games would be good for this comparison.

What is wrong with a healthy outlet for our emotions?

There is of course those outside of this that touch to the very sensation of the action, etc. This is a gray area scientifically, studies are inconclusive as to it's health benefits. As far as Christians are concerned it is something that could cause another to stumble, be careful with it.

It is not a gray area, and the studies are VERY conclusive: masturbation is healthy, and will not cause your hair to fall out, produce hair on your palms, or in any way impact your life. Go Google it. The only possible way my activities might make someone stumble is if their faith is weak and if they actually know about it. Give me an example of the latter happening in the course of a normal day.

 

[Zebra1552]

Our bodies are a temple of God. We are to not use them for self-gratification to satisfy a lust, under the reason that we need a release.(1 Cor. 6:19). "You were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."(1 Corinthians 6:20) "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." (Rom. 12:1 NIV)

Then why do we eat, read, watch TV, or play video games? Entertainment is healthy. To argue that it's wrong because it's 'self gratification' and ignore other forms of 'self gratification' is inconsistent and hypocritical. And to NOT ignore those forms and say that anything that satisfies you is sin is unhealthy. It's a religious rut, and Jesus warned us against things like that. Jesus ate and drank. He embraced people. He went off by himself to have fun. Why can't we?

We are born with a sin-nature, therefore what may seem innocent may be merely ignorance...

Slippery slope. ANYTHING that we see as innocent might be suspect, according to this argument, and this is not a healthy way to live.

 

[RMDY]

...Entertainment is healthy.

Godschild87, in your opinion, is touching yourself is a form of entertainment?




P.s. - I am awaiting your response before I address the rest of your post.

 

[Kencj]

Our bodies are a temple of God. We are to not use them for self-gratification to satisfy a lust, under the reason that we need a release.(1 Cor. 6:19).

Isn't that just what happens when someone eats by reason of being hungry?

And how could sex even in marriage even be possible under this kind of thinking? They can only have sex when they DON'T really feel like it?

"Lust" in the Bible simply means "strongly desire" -it has nothing inherently evil about it, and more than hunger or wanting something good badly.
Again someone is stumbling over this word and falling into a terrible kind of phariseeism -not even phariseeism, more like neo-platonism.

 

[david_x]

ALL fiction has SOME basis in reality, that does not make it non-fiction. Red herring, David.

You just ignored my whole post, I said it wasn't PURE fiction like you tried to say. It still has elements of fiction in it. It is not a red herring, it is the whole problem with your view. You think that these bodies are you invention and the are NOT.

Then Narnia, LOTR, Star Wars, and many, many other fictional things, under your very definition, are not fictional either. You cannot apply your principles to just sexual things and have your principles still be logical.

Addressed above.

What is wrong with a healthy outlet for our emotions?

Like fishing, sports, games, or REAL relationships. Nothing.

It is not a gray area, and the studies are VERY conclusive: masturbation is healthy, and will not cause your hair to fall out, produce hair on your palms, or in any way impact your life. Go Google it. The only possible way my activities might make someone stumble is if their faith is weak and if they actually know about it. Give me an example of the latter happening in the course of a normal day.

There isn't anything very conclusive, and the dirty secret you never hear is that it is NOT needed. You don't have to touch.

 

[Zebra1552]

Godschild87, in your opinion, is touching yourself is a form of entertainment?




P.s. - I am awaiting your response before I address the rest of your post.

Of course. It's fun, isn't it?

 

[Zebra1552]

You just ignored my whole post, I said it wasn't PURE fiction like you tried to say. It still has elements of fiction in it.

Then all that we consider to be fiction really is not fiction. Your argument does not work when you apply it elsewhere. It's inconsistently applied and fallacious. It's ambiguous.

It is not a red herring, it is the whole problem with your view. You think that these bodies are you invention and the are NOT.

I never stated that. A red herring followed up with a straw man. And your argument is a red herring because fiction ALWAYS has some basis in reality SOMEWHERE along the line, making your argument off topic to masturbation.

Like fishing, sports, games, or REAL relationships. Nothing.

That doesn't answer the question.

There isn't anything very conclusive, and the dirty secret you never hear is that it is NOT needed. You don't have to touch.

Then why is there a sex drive? Why do I tend to lust and want sex with REAL people when I don't do it?

There is conclusive evidence:
masturbation healthy - Google Search

 

[david_x]

Then all that we consider to be fiction really is not fiction. Your argument does not work when you apply it elsewhere. It's inconsistently applied and fallacious. It's ambiguous.

...are you being thick headed on purpose? You tried to say it was PURE fiction, that was false. Pure fiction would mean that everything was invented by the mind of the creator. It doesn't exist.

That doesn't answer the question.

It should have, I was saying that there are MUCH healthier ways to release stress and have fun.

Then why is there a sex drive? Why do I tend to lust and want sex with REAL people when I don't do it?

Naturalistic fallacy.

There is conclusive evidence:
masturbation healthy - Google Search

Like I said, nothing conclusive.