Masturbation

[david_x]

No, not really. Please address the point I made about sexual desire being from hormones.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough it seems.

Hormones would account for the temptations that I described. By which I mean that hormones influence us to think about others in sexual ways without our consent. Therefore it is not a sin to have these ideas pop into your head.

David, you clearly didn't bother to read the site at all.

Liberated Christians
is the name of the site...

And dismissing it as biased does not dismiss the information. Address the article:

Ignoring what I stated about the definition of lust to support your own interpretation isn't going to fly with me. Address the point or concede it.

I don't mean to ignore anything, i'm sorry if you took it that way. I posted two links that were meant to show what most people translate the verses to be. I tried to use good sources that had little chance of being overtly biased.

 

[david_x]

I joined before the site overhaul. Why would I assume that the defaults are all the same? Why would I assume there isn't some tech issue? Your logic does not account for any number of other possible explanations either. So I'll ask again. Why should I make assumptions?

Because it's polite.

 

[Kencj]

To me your posts indicate you are a couple of "Right Fighters" rather than seekers of truth. I haven't seen anything of substance in about 20 pages.

Personally, I've enjoyed this -it's my first thread on this site. If this had been a "real life" conversation it may have gotten emotional but being a thread it's been orderly and reasonable.

I've learned a lot from going over the adultery-in-the-heart verses in Matthew about 100 times and we have made progress in this discussion.

For example, here are David X's quotes, in sequence, re sex;

"It is a sin of our nature to think about it, it is a sin of choice to keep thinking about it.”

“Nor did I say a "desire" for sex is sinful. When you linger on it and entertain it, you sin.”

"Desire that is dwelt upon becomes sin."

“Let me define my position for you then. Lust (the negative context) is a sin we choose to do, it is the entertainment of the temptation.”

“Temptation is not a sin, though it births it. James 1:15”

It seems to me he's gone from an unreasonable to a more reasonable position. The only real hangup, it seems to me, is the insistence on using an english dictionary to define the greek word that is sometimes translated "lust", which is completely misleading. This was covered in depth pages and pages ago, so if anyone's interested, please look back to earlier pages.

Now I need to get some work done!

 

[david_x]

Personally, I've enjoyed this -it's my first thread on this site. If this had been a "real life" conversation it may have gotten emotional but being a thread it's been orderly and reasonable.

I've learned a lot from going over the adultery-in-the-heart verses in Matthew about 100 times and we have made progress in this discussion.

For example, here are David X's quotes, in sequence, re sex;

"It is a sin of our nature to think about it, it is a sin of choice to keep thinking about it.”

“Nor did I say a "desire" for sex is sinful. When you linger on it and entertain it, you sin.”

"Desire that is dwelt upon becomes sin."

“Let me define my position for you then. Lust (the negative context) is a sin we choose to do, it is the entertainment of the temptation.”

“Temptation is not a sin, though it births it. James 1:15”

It seems to me he's gone from an unreasonable to a more reasonable position. The only real hangup, it seems to me, is the insistence on using an english dictionary to define the greek word that is sometimes translated "lust", which is completely misleading. This was covered in depth pages and pages ago, so if anyone's interested, please look back to earlier pages.

Now I need to get some work done!

My position hasn't really changed, I've cut out some of the bigger bites to get to the core of the issue first. The core being the bias translation you choose to use to justify you position.

 

[Kencj]

OK, let me make one last point, relating to David X's earlier post on James 1:15.

Here it is in the ISV, which like the NIV, avoids using the word "lust";

"...each person is tempted by his own desire, being lured and trapped by it. When that desire becomes pregnant, it gives birth to sin; and when that sin grows up, it gives birth to death."

The word "desire" here, not surprisingly, is the noun version of EPITHUMEO, EPITHUMIA. The desire itself, whatever it is, is not "sin", it's when it's taken another step and becomes action it "gives birth to sin".

Sound good?

 

[Kencj]

My position hasn't really changed, I've cut out some of the bigger bites to get to the core of the issue first. The core being the bias translation you choose to use to justify you position.

Sorry, that's lame.

 

[david_x]

OK, let me make one last point, relating to David X's earlier post on James 1:15.

Here it is in the ISV, which like the NIV, avoids using the word "lust";

"...each person is tempted by his own desire, being lured and trapped by it. When that desire becomes pregnant, it gives birth to sin; and when that sin grows up, it gives birth to death."

The word "desire" here, not surprisingly, is the noun version of EPITHUMEO, EPITHUMIA. The desire itself, whatever it is, is not "sin", it's when it's taken another step and becomes action it "gives birth to sin".

Sound good?

Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying.
Temptation is not a sin.

 

[Zebra1552]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough it seems.

Yeah, and it's getting to be a pattern.

Hormones would account for the temptations that I described. By which I mean that hormones influence us to think about others in sexual ways without our consent. Therefore it is not a sin to have these ideas pop into your head.

Then we are naturally tempted! How is this any different from a desire to eat or sleep? Seriously, you're avoiding the point I'm making about sexual desire being physical.

I don't mean to ignore anything, i'm sorry if you took it that way. I posted two links that were meant to show what most people translate the verses to be. I tried to use good sources that had little chance of being overtly biased.

The site I linked you is not biased, and your 'sources' are English dictionaries. We are talking about the Greek, not the English.

Because it's polite.

It's polite to make assumptions about people? Wow...

 

[Zebra1552]

My position hasn't really changed, I've cut out some of the bigger bites to get to the core of the issue first. The core being the bias translation you choose to use to justify you position.

That's a cop out. You haven't shown that there is bias. Pointing and shouting doesn't mean you actually see something.

 

[david_x]

Yeah, and it's getting to be a pattern.

Uncalled for.

Then we are naturally tempted! How is this any different from a desire to eat or sleep? Seriously, you're avoiding the point I'm making about sexual desire being physical.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it is physiological. Also, I have yet to call such a thing sinful.

The site I linked you is not biased, and your 'sources' are English dictionaries. We are talking about the Greek, not the English.

You didn't follow either of the links than, neither were English dictionaries. One was a site and the other a Bible dictionary. 1 2

It's polite to make assumptions about people? Wow...

It's always polite to assume the best.

 

[Zebra1552]

Uncalled for.

It was perfectly called for. We've spent over 100 posts debating this, and multiple users have all said that the definition you are using is fallacious.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it is physiological. Also, I have yet to call such a thing sinful.

You're now contradicting yourself:

1. I will not argue that masturbation is in and of itself a sin, nor will I argue against it.
2. Lust, in it's negative sense, is a sin. Especially in the verb form. 1

This is the verb form, according to your dictionary:
"6. to have intense sexual desire."

Sexual desire is the result of hormones. So you're saying that something physical is sin. Get your facts straight.

You didn't follow either of the links than, neither were English dictionaries. One was a site and the other a Bible dictionary. 1 2

Both were very much English dictionaries. Your first is Vine's, which is outdated. Your second link ignores the Greek completely, it lists two dictionaries (both outdated, btw), and an encyclopedia that doesn't give jack about coveting and focuses on unsimilar Hebrew words denoting desire, which when you read the verse and word in context can hardly be the meaning.

And you ignore my link in favor of two outdated dictionaries and an encyclopedia that goes off on a red herring. Why should I pay any attention to them?

It's always polite to assume the best.

Sorry, I'm a bit more realistic than that.

 

[david_x]

You're now contradicting yourself:

This is the verb form, according to your dictionary:
"6. to have intense sexual desire."

That's not the right context.

Here is how the dictionary actually defines it:

(1) Epithumia is used most frequently, and means a longing for the unlawful, hence, concupiscence, desire, lust. The following references hold the idea, not only of sinful desire known as "fleshly," "worldly," as opposed to "spiritual" "heavenly," "the will of man" as opposed to "the will of God," but also the sensual desire connected with adultery, fornication; verb in Matthew 5:28 Mark 4:19 John 8:44 Romans 1:24 1 Corinthians 10:6; Galatians 5:16, 17, 24 Titus 2:12 1 Peter 1:14; 1 Peter 1 John 2:16; Jude 1:16, 18 Revelation 18:14.​

Sexual desire is the result of hormones. So you're saying that something physical is sin. Get your facts straight.

Not what I meant.

 

[Zebra1552]

That's not the right context.

Here is how the dictionary actually defines it:

(1) Epithumia is used most frequently, and means a longing for the unlawful, hence, concupiscence, desire, lust. The following references hold the idea, not only of sinful desire known as "fleshly," "worldly," as opposed to "spiritual" "heavenly," "the will of man" as opposed to "the will of God," but also the sensual desire connected with adultery, fornication; verb in Matthew 5:28 Mark 4:19 John 8:44 Romans 1:24 1 Corinthians 10:6; Galatians 5:16, 17, 24 Titus 2:12 1 Peter 1:14; 1 Peter 1 John 2:16; Jude 1:16, 18 Revelation 18:14.​

It's the right context. You linked this:
Lust Definition | Definition of Lust at Dictionary.com

And then stated that the verb form is sin. The following two are the verb form:
–verb (used without object) 6. to have intense sexual desire. 7. to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving (often fol. by for or after).

I can read, David.

Not what I meant.

Then you are again changing your story. I suggest you take some time and gather your thoughts so you don't keep changing what you mean and contradict yourself. And by the way, this illustrates evidence for my earlier statement:
"Yeah, and it's getting to be a pattern."

You lack good communication skills, as did I two years ago. You're not going to get any better by denying them.

 

[david_x]

It's the right context. You linked this:
Lust Definition | Definition of Lust at Dictionary.com

And then stated that the verb form is sin. The following two are the verb form:
–verb (used without object) 6. to have intense sexual desire. 7. to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving (often fol. by for or after).

I can read, David.

I said the negative verb form, you tried to say I meant the positive one. Of course I mean the excessive one.

Then you are again changing your story. I suggest you take some time and gather your thoughts so you don't keep changing what you mean and contradict yourself. And by the way, this illustrates evidence for my earlier statement:
"Yeah, and it's getting to be a pattern."

You lack good communication skills, as did I two years ago. You're not going to get any better by denying them.

I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this eventually.

 

[Zebra1552]

I said the negative verb form, you tried to say I meant the positive one. Of course I mean the excessive one.

And I have told you many times, that is vague. Who determines what is 'excessive'? Do you realize how similar our definitions really are? Lust requires an intent to act on the desire- that is, it is a longing to the point where you'd do it if you could get away with it. Do you agree? It's basically coveting.

I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this eventually.

Oh goodie.

 

[david_x]

And I have told you many times, that is vague. Who determines what is 'excessive'? Do you realize how similar our definitions really are? Lust requires an intent to act on the desire- that is, it is a longing to the point where you'd do it if you could get away with it. Do you agree? It's basically coveting.

Excessive: where something comes between you and God. Not to be vague, but it's a definition that applies to everyone according to where they are at in their walk. For you it may very well be that your definition fits into this. Some people are less mature and have a looser definition, some more mature with the stricter sense.

Oh goodie.

I don't know if you can appreciate how much restraint that took, lul.

 

[Zebra1552]

Excessive: where something comes between you and God. Not to be vague, but it's a definition that applies to everyone according to where they are at in their walk. For you it may very well be that your definition fits into this. Some people are less mature and have a looser definition, some more mature with the stricter sense.

So you're saying it's along the lines of Romans 14, then.

I don't know if you can appreciate how much restraint that took, lul.

Oh, I can. There have been a number of times I've been very frustrated with people on forums...

Just to share, this is an issue that I was dead set on when I was 20- masturbation was wrong- and it took about 50 posts and a full week for me to realize that the argument I was using to support the idea of it being a sin- lust and all- was wrong and unbiblical. You've no idea how much I embarrassed myself. I acted like a little kid... It was someone who had the guts to say, 'look, you're wrong, here's where you're wrong' for me to get over being wrong.

 

[david_x]

So you're saying it's along the lines of Romans 14, then.

Perhaps

Oh, I can. There have been a number of times I've been very frustrated with people on forums...

Lul, so true.

Just to share, this is an issue that I was dead set on when I was 20- masturbation was wrong- and it took about 50 posts and a full week for me to realize that the argument I was using to support the idea of it being a sin- lust and all- was wrong and unbiblical. You've no idea how much I embarrassed myself. I acted like a little kid... It was someone who had the guts to say, 'look, you're wrong, here's where you're wrong' for me to get over being wrong.

I was wrong to impose the expectations of myself on you, who am I to judge the servant of another?

 

[Zebra1552]

Perhaps

There you go being cryptic again.

I was wrong to impose the expectations of myself on you, who am I to judge the servant of another?

Um... what do you mean?

 

[Yab Yum]

"Don't knock it, it's sex with someone you love". (Woody Allen).