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Masturbation question

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Rhamiel

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Max
If the masturbation hurts no one. Lusting is no more than sexual daydreaming. I think its sad that anyone would want to make a sin out of day dreaming. No one is hurt no one is killed.
but sin hurts the soul
I am sorry if I sound uptight or prudish, maybe I am just one of those people with a guilt complex you mentioned, but I think touching yourself is an evil and that it hurts people, you have been told where the Catholic Church stands on the issues and why, please do not debate in OBOB, this is not because I fear open debate, OBOB is just not the place for non-Catholics to debate, if you wanna continue this else where just send me a PM with a link to the thread, you seem like a smart man and even though we do not agree on this it has been nice going back and forth with you
 
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ukok

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I can see the argument against masturbation by showing what happened to onan because he was spilling his seed... but a female loses nothing in the process, so why stop them?

One of the the things that i love about my Catholicity is that it has taught me that although i led a 'secular existance' before my conversion, my purity, in the eyes of God ....and of my future husband (if God wills that i have one)...my purity, can be made new.

In attempting to remain chaste for my future spouse (if God wills it) and because that is what the Lord asks of me, i choose to make that sacrifice of offering God my sexuality.

I still battle against impure thoughts, but the committment i have to not succumbing to the lures of the flesh will, i hope, remain.

From my perspective, as a woman, i offer God my whole self, that includes my sexuality. If i marry, in that union that so closely reflect the Holy Trinity, i will offer my husband my whole self.

And y'know, somethings are worth waiting for. To experience love in the context of the marital union is certainly worth the sacrifice of my not succumbing to sexual desires prior to marriage.


I definitely agree MOST masturbation is sinful because people tend to lust over things which are not theirs... and that is wrong (remember bathsheba)... but is all sexual fantasy wrong?

I don't know for sure, but i would say that for most people who 'pleasure themselves' it involves lusting after someone, or envisioning some sexual scene or something. Is that really what God gave us the gift of sexual intimacy for? I believe there is a chasm of difference between fleeting self-gratification and spousal intimacy. Sexual pleasure is a gift from God, it is a beautiful experience, and it's one of those things which is always best shared, with your spouse.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Max, please remember that you are in the Catholic forum and are therefore not permitted to debate Catholic teachings. If you do not agree with them, I don't suppose it matters much, because you do not identify yourself as a Catholic - therefore, you would not see these teachings as applying to you. But we are sharing the Catholic teachings on the matter, and those are not up for debate.
 
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In attempting to remain chaste for my future spouse (if God wills it) and because that is what the Lord asks of me, i choose to make that sacrifice of offering God my sexuality.

And that is a very noble sacrifice. But so is fasting. That doesn't make food evil. Sacrifice doesn't necessarily mean giving up something you shouldn't have anyway. While it's not a good point to prove masturbation as being wrong, I'm sure God sees your heart condition, your willingness to serve, your dedication, and your self-control and greatly appreciates the effort!

But sacrificing food being a good display of dedication doesn't make food wrong.

So... the two main points I didn't see an answer to:

1: If masturbation is wrong -because- of it's solo aspect... what if such an act that's normally viewed as wrong (such as manual stimulation or oral sex) is used in order to bring everyone "up to speed" so that procreative copulation can take place?

I've been told "non-vaginal sex" is wrong because it's not procreative... but what if it's a tool used as part of the procreative act? When it's not used as a substitute for procreative sex, but as a way to initiate it?

Also, 2: is it selfish or wrong for a person to touch with the intent of practicing -for their partner-... for example, when people don't know how to use their body, some people get distracted or don't know how to respond to certain things and end up not being able to "finish" and loose interest. This can be very insulting and damaging. Others get confused during a sometimes chaotic event, lose control and finish too soon. Either way turns procreative sex into a selfish act. If used to make marriage more unifying, is masturbation in THAT case a moral, or even loving thing to do in order to better perform for your partner to make procreative sex a more unifying experience?

(for this one, please assume that "practicing" improves sexual performance. The reason being MOST common sexual disorders are psychological. By learning to control your mind in the middle of what can be a chaotic act, you end up understanding how to respond to different things... what works and what doesn't work.
 
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Davidnic

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Let me explain who can debate here:

Christians and churches who are united in full communion with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI

And what is fellowship:


DEFINITION OF A FELLOWSHIP POST

1) It is not debate or apologetics (defense).

Those who disagree with a congregation’s Statement of Faith will not discuss reasons for or against any subject being discussed on this sub-forum. This includes questions that essentially are rebuttal or argumentative in nature. Those who disagree will not engage in theological discussions that defend their particular point of view on scriptural, theological, doctrinal, social, or political issues.

2) It is not answering questions or teaching.

Only a member of the congregational forum may give answers to and instruct on doctrinal questions. While there may be many very good ideas on the subject from non-members, they may not give instruction. Earnest questions are always welcome, from anyone.

3) What Fellowship is:

Essentially fellowship is defined as the discussion of topics of association, of companionship - i.e. discussions of things like friends, family, work..... these topics are fellowship. Posts that offer friendship would certainly be described as fellowship.
 
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Rhamiel

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I am episcopalian and we consider ourselves "catholic"...just not Roman Catholic. We are part of the "universal church" ..sorry but thats a fact.
it is a fact you view yourself as catholic, but we do not view the Anglican church as catholic, and since this is our forum our definition is really what matters, not to be rude, but if you wanna debate what is Catholic go to GT or the Apostolic Churches subforum, in OBOB you have to play by the forum rules
I am not trying to kick you out, i like your style, but you shoould not debate here
 
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Maggie893

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A few thoughts for consideration.

Lust is a sin. Jesus said, " But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart."

You will not find a single passage in scripture which uses the term lust in anyway but the most negative terms. It's not acceptable. It's degrading and devoid of virtue. You may be attracted to people but when your attraction turns selfish it becomes lust. Doesn't really matter whether the object of your lust (object being the key word) is your spouse or a stranger, it's still sinful.

Catholic teaching on adultery....

Adultery
2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.172 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.173 2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents' stable union

So sex with yourself is basically adultery. It's marital infidelity.

It's also contrary to chastity as noted:
2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.


As for Onanism, it's faulty to disregard scripture to suit a personal desire. Up until the 1900's every Christian and Jewish tradition fully understood that Onan commit a grave sin deserving of death by "spilling his seed on the ground". There are plenty of great studies on this. A few quick links:
http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp

The bottom line on Onan is this, there was a prescribed punishment for breaking levirate law. It was public humiliation. Death was reserved by God's law for sins that destroyed life/pro-creation.

There is no logical basis to believe that God killed Onan for disobeying the law and if you read the above mentioned links there is good reason to believe that God considers it a grave sin.

One way that I've described the disordered nature of masturbation to my youth group is this.

God gave us our senses to assist our intelligence in understanding Him more fully and for living our life here on earth in the span of time.

For instance, he gave us the sense of taste. If we didn't have the sense of taste, would we eat? Would we no the difference between good food and bad food. God knows that we need to eat to live. He graciously gave us a sense of taste to allow us to enjoy eating and thereby ensure that we will continue to eat to live. This sense of taste however can be misused. When we begin to eat simply because we like the taste, we have disordered our senses. The pleasure of taste becomes the focus rather than the efficacy of eating to live.

The same holds true with sex. God gave us intercourse to procreate and to give us an example or means of simply experiencing the unity that He has as the Trinitarian unification. Man and woman become one. He graciously gave us a sense of pleasure to allow us to enjoy intercourse and thereby ensure that will will continue to procreate and experience the unification of marriage. When we begin to find was to experience the pleasure of sex without the unifying and procreative means of intercourse, we have disordered our senses. The pleasure becomes the focus rather than the unification and procreation.

And honestly, if someone could please show me a single instance of a dissatisfied man or woman who had refrained from all sexual experiences prior to marriage. If you know nothing about sex prior to marital relations that how can you be dissatisfied? Or have you fabricated something in your mind based on tv, the movies, books, etc. that insinuate a certain level of pleasure and satisfaction? The dissatisfaction that is currently studied is not of virginal respondents but of men and women who have already disordered their senses. Step outside of societies pummelling of our senses. Get a Godly view and live in a chaste manner and you will find that there is a greater pleasure given in marriage.

Each person will make his/her own decision about masturbation but it is not wise to disregard, ignore or refuse to hear what the Church teaches in this regard. It is a grave sin. It will not lead to a better life with spouse or eternally.

There is a vast amount of writings on the connection between the marriage covenant and the Divine covenant. On sexuality within the context of marriage. On ordered love vs disordered love. As has been recommended already, theology of the body, humanae vitae, and many other Catholic sources.

It would be well invested time to pray and read to understand the wholeness of Church teaching before disregarding it as archaic based on message board responses.

Lean on your own understanding at your own risk. ;)
 
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Hoankan

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:yellowcard:
Mod Hat On

This is a subforum for those of the Roman Catholic Church. Other members are welcome to post in fellowship only. If you are unsure what fellowship posting is, please check the rules found here. Also keep thread on topic.

Thread has under major clean up after the reminder of what is a fellowship post so kindly given by David.

Mod Hat Off
:yellowcard:
 
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Globalnomad

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Bump - in reply to your last message (post#44) addressed to UKOK.
The question is, what constitutes masturbation within the definition of the sin.

Without getting too graphic myself, Gregorian, the examples that you brought up can almost completely come under the category of "foreplay". Including the "practice" aspect, which can be undertaken after marriage and can be (in fact, it's much nicer if it is) mutual rather than self-directed. Manual stimulation as foreplay has never been outlawed by the Church. Whether self-stimulation in the context of foreplay is allowed; or whether it is allowed for the woman to reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] other than by penile stimulation; those details have never been defined: the Church does not go into graphic details, either! All we are told is that the man may not reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] other than inside the vagina.

Going away from the graphic details and into the true spirit of these moral laws, lust is selfish sexual desire. You can lust after your spouse too, if your desire is selfish and does not take into account their wishes and pleasure. A man who habitually goes home and grabs his tired and headachy wife for a quickie, is certainly sinning. (But this is a complex subject of marital give-and-take, and of being able to give in to the other's wishes gladly and lovingly from time to time, let's not get into it.)

Yes, in the end, selfish pleasure-seeking is at the root of this whole subject.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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..I think it is fairly obvious that sex was meant to be between two people, and it's not supposed to be a selfish thing either. This makes masturbation sinful for two reasons: it's a) not natural ie: not what God intended and b) lustful/selfish.

I don't understand how this could be disagreed with.. lol..
it seems to me that people who are supporting masturbation are coming up with all sorts of excuses for it, like "it's healthy" etc, but it's NOT healthy for the soul.
 
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Hoankan

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Thanks Globalnomad, for responding to Gregorian. I did respond to him but in the 'clean up' my post was removed. I have pm'd a mod to ask why that was since i don't think i posted anything wrong.

Posts quoting a deleted post had to be removed as part of the clean up. It wasn't the rightness or wrongness of many of the posts, but the wrongness of what they were quoting.
 
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ukok

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Posts quoting a deleted post had to be removed as part of the clean up. It wasn't the rightness or wrongness of many of the posts, but the wrongness of what they were quoting.

Really?

When i was a mod we used to just remove the quote from the post. It isn't hard to do.

I think there was some valuable info in the post that directly answered the question that Gregorian specifically asked me. I don't have the time to write it all out again. Even if i could remember all i wrote. So now it looks like i didn't respond to Gregorian, when i did....and just because i quoted him, all that i took the trouble to say, was also wiped out. That hardly seems fair.
 
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The question is, what constitutes masturbation within the definition of the sin.

Without getting too graphic myself, Gregorian, the examples that you brought up can almost completely come under the category of "foreplay". Including the "practice" aspect, which can be undertaken after marriage and can be (in fact, it's much nicer if it is) mutual rather than self-directed. Manual stimulation as foreplay has never been outlawed by the Church. Whether self-stimulation in the context of foreplay is allowed; or whether it is allowed for the woman to reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] other than by penile stimulation; those details have never been defined: the Church does not go into graphic details, either! All we are told is that the man may not reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] other than inside the vagina.

Going away from the graphic details and into the true spirit of these moral laws, lust is selfish sexual desire. You can lust after your spouse too, if your desire is selfish and does not take into account their wishes and pleasure. A man who habitually goes home and grabs his tired and headachy wife for a quickie, is certainly sinning. (But this is a complex subject of marital give-and-take, and of being able to give in to the other's wishes gladly and lovingly from time to time, let's not get into it.)

Indeed... that sounds very reasonable. I'm glad to hear it. Too many people present the catholic church's viewpoint on sex as entirely unreasonable. But I'm relieved to see that it isn't the case.

As for Ukok... it happens. I appreciate the thought of you answering, and if it was as clear as the above answer, I appreciate it. It's obvious why max's posts were deleted, but I'm still curious as to why my own were. Do you guys think I was bullying or pushing my own agenda? I thought I was doing very well at not presenting my own viewpoint... and trust me, I have my own, and scriptural evidence to back it up, but I held fast this whole time to only ask for clarification on what you guys believe so as to give it a fair shot.

(note, I'm not discussing any particular moderator action, only clarifying whether or not I've offended anyone so that I can apologize if I had.)
 
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ukok

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Many thanks to Davidnic for sorting things out so i could repost tis without the quote it had previously contained.

Gregorian, this was the post i made in response to you. I won't respond further, but felt it only fair to re-post this, in the hope that it will help you gain further understanding about this subject, from a Catholic viewpoint.

" The Church has not, to my knowledge, stated anywhere that it is wrong for married couples to engage in mutual sexual stimulation prior to sexual intercourse.

In fact, JPII had a fabulous understanding of the area of moral theology and said quite clearly in The Theology of the Body and also in Love and Responsibility that because men and womens bodies respond differently during sex, the onus is upon husbands (who are more quickly aroused) to ensure that they consider their wives needs first. In fact you will find if you read either of the books i just menitoned, that JPII (along with other moral theologians) had an amazing insight into the sexual needs of husbands and wives and recognised/stated that in order for the wife to be aroused to the extent to engage in penetrative sex, sexual stimulation may be given/recieved. The same can happen for the husband but he must not be bought to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] outside of the womans body. Hence, mutual masturbation, oral sex or whatever you want to call it, is allowed, but only when it leads to sexual intercourse and only when it is unitive and only when it is in the confines of marriage.

Okay, this has got a lot more explicit than i ever intended my response to be, and i feel uncomfortable continuing. I am going to leave you with some links to read through that exlpain the Catholic viewpoint much better than i just did. I think they adequately explain the Catholic teachings. As have other Catholics who have posted in your thread.

Catholics and foreplay 1

Catholics and foreplay 2

Catholics and foreplay 3

Catholics and foreplay 4

Hope this helps!

God Bless
 
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Rhamiel

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..I think it is fairly obvious that sex was meant to be between two people, and it's not supposed to be a selfish thing either. This makes masturbation sinful for two reasons: it's a) not natural ie: not what God intended and b) lustful/selfish.
Too many people forget that touching yourself is by its very nature un-natural
 
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Monica Too many people forget that touching yourself is by its very nature un-natural

I won't -present- any information, but I will suggest you do a bit more research on the topic from non-biased sources. Animals... unborn babies... etc. .... of course "Natural" does not equate to "morally acceptable." Killing over territory is perfectly natural and definitely sinful.

(note, I'm not saying to research one way or another... just saying... do some open research.)
 
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Rhamiel

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killing over territory is not natural, but an effect of sin
pagans in Rome and China (the stoics and the Taoists) had a very good understanding of natural law and what it was, I do not count neo-darwinian evolutionist science to be un-biased.
So can pagans from differant sides of the globe who wrote there ideas before the birth of Christ be counted as un-biased?
... dude, I am sorry if I sound too confrontational, i am a little wound up, peace be with you brother
 
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isabella1

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Many thanks to Davidnic for sorting things out so i could repost tis without the quote it had previously contained.

Gregorian, this was the post i made in response to you. I won't respond further, but felt it only fair to re-post this, in the hope that it will help you gain further understanding about this subject, from a Catholic viewpoint.

" The Church has not, to my knowledge, stated anywhere that it is wrong for married couples to engage in mutual sexual stimulation prior to sexual intercourse.

In fact, JPII had a fabulous understanding of the area of moral theology and said quite clearly in The Theology of the Body and also in Love and Responsibility that because men and womens bodies respond differently during sex, the onus is upon husbands (who are more quickly aroused) to ensure that they consider their wives needs first. In fact you will find if you read either of the books i just menitoned, that JPII (along with other moral theologians) had an amazing insight into the sexual needs of husbands and wives and recognised/stated that in order for the wife to be aroused to the extent to engage in penetrative sex, sexual stimulation may be given/recieved. The same can happen for the husband but he must not be bought to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] outside of the womans body. Hence, mutual masturbation, oral sex or whatever you want to call it, is allowed, but only when it leads to sexual intercourse and only when it is unitive and only when it is in the confines of marriage.

Okay, this has got a lot more explicit than i ever intended my response to be, and i feel uncomfortable continuing. I am going to leave you with some links to read through that exlpain the Catholic viewpoint much better than i just did. I think they adequately explain the Catholic teachings. As have other Catholics who have posted in your thread.

Catholics and foreplay 1

Catholics and foreplay 2

Catholics and foreplay 3

Catholics and foreplay 4

Hope this helps!

God Bless
Some really good resources, and your post was well done. And yes you are right on target in what you are presenting. Nothing wrong with explaining it within the Churches teachings so people can clearly understand what is acceptable and what is not.
 
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No, I didn't mean to insinuate "natural" for people, I was talking about animals. Many animals throughout nature kill over territory. Basically I was covering my butt in case the mods thought I was "teaching" something.

"You may want to do your own research as to whether or not many animals throughout nature (and unborn humans) touch on a regular basis." I'm not saying whether they do or don't... but "it'd be an interesting thing to look up."

However, to cover my butt... even if you did find it to be natural... not all things that are "natural" are morally correct. Wolves kill over territory. Lions kill cubs that aren't theirs just to breed with more females. That's part of nature, but that doesn't give us the excuse to harm our brothers.

Of course, I have no idea what results you'll find. I'm sure it's completely in line with official catholic doctrine. :thumbsup:
 
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