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Masturbation question

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DarkNLovely

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Please remember that you are in a Catholic forum, and that our beliefs are based on a two-thousand-year-old tradition. Our beliefs were in formation before Scripture was even written down, so Scripture is not our only authority; we look to Holy Tradition, which has been preserved and passed down through the centuries, as another facet of Authority.

Scripture constantly tells us to flee immorality (2 Tim 2:22), avoid sexual immorality and impropriety, refrain from falling into sexual sin, fornication, and adultery. Just because Scripture does not say something explicit, like "Thou shalt not touch thy privates", that does not mean that something is free game.

Masturbation is, by its very nature, a sexual act. It involves sexual arousal, sexual stimulation, and sexual release. Sure, you can touch thinking about chlorophyll and what makes the leaves change colour if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you are sexually stimulating yourself because you desire sexual release. Just because you don't INTEND something to be immoral, that does not mean it is automatically made acceptable.

Catholics believe that this is sinful, we have always believed that it is sinful, and we do not believe that just because someone really, really wants a personal sin to be "okay", that that person will suddenly be absolved of all sinfulness.

That is the problem with sin. We always want it to be "okay".

To Gwen: I am well aware of the fact that I am in a Catholic forum which is why I asked if anyone could direct to me any OFFICIAL written information that I could read and interprete for myself.

While I am "pro-touching yourself" I never said I did it, and I don't appreciate being told what I should do or how touching yourself is going to effect my life or anyone even addressing my "sex life" if it could be called that. I didn't ask anybody to defend the Catholic position and certainly didn't ask to be the subject here and I find it very rude that anybody would even do such a thing!

I do not want to forget the OP so I will just leave this board as I don't want to high-jack someone else's thread with this craziness.
 
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Gwendolyn

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I'm sorry, I was using "you" in the plural and hypothetical sense. Perhaps I should have substituted "one" for "you", since it is easily misinterpreted.

We have been explaining to you what Catholics believe. All our writings are similarly clear and concise. But if you would like an excerpt from our catechism:

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139


If you would like to read the full section of the catechism concerning lust, chastity, and its place in our everyday lives, you can find a great online version of the catechism here. The section I quoted about lust and chastity can be directly found here. You might think it is a bit lengthy, but there is no "simple" answer to the question, "Is masturbation wrong? Why?" This is because the understanding of lust and chastity are linked to the understanding of the human person as a whole, the nature of love, etc. Everything is interconnected, as you will find very quickly with Catholic theology.

Basically all the catechism is, is a summary of our beliefs, like we've been trying to explain here. We've explained it properly, but I guess if you want something "official", there is nothing more detailed and in-depth than the catechism.

If you are interested in the issue of human sexuality as a whole, author Christopher West has done a great series based on Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body. I read Christopher West's commentary on Theology of the Body, as the original book is written in high, lofty language, and his commentary makes everything more accessible. I also read another book written by him... it was very brief and to-the-point, basically a summary of Theology of the Body. I can't remember what it was called, though.

Christopher West has written very extensively on this aspect of Catholic theology as it relates to human sexuality. If you feel inclined, you can definitely check out a list of all his articles and books at his website.
I hope that helps!
 
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fated

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First, JPII indicated that one should, ideally, not lust after their wife. You could say its important to be affectionate and open to one another.

Masturbation denatures ones sexuality, and objectifies one sexual faculties. It can also be addictive, just as people go into addiction centers for sex addiction, which leads you in the wrong direction. One should seek to control their sexuality, lest some more tragic sin occur.
 
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Sianelle

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Masturbation denatures ones sexuality, and objectifies one sexual faculties. It can also be addictive, just as people go into addiction centers for sex addiction, which leads you in the wrong direction. One should seek to control their sexuality, lest some more tragic sin occur.

Exactly, - well said :thumbsup:.
 
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Lust is always bad because it's objectifying ones spouse for gratification. Sex is about giving, not getting.

Masturbation is wrong for both sexes for that reason.

It is also dangerous because it's isolating, the opposite of giving.

What if your fantasy is that OF pleasing your spouse? Your deepest desire is to please your spouse, and the sheer thought of pleasing your spouse physically pleases/stimulates you?

Is that inherently wrong? Or is that considered desire within marriage? Is it only lust if it's selfish?

benedictoo said:
Lusting for you spouse is also a sin too.

... but I thought the reason for lust BEING wrong is that you're committing adultery in your heart? How can you commit adultery with your own wife spouse? We can all agree that sex within marriage is not only "OK," but commanded (very bluntly in... 1 Corinthians 7 I think)... so what about "getting your spouse in the mood" before the actual act. That part isn't inherently procreative, but it's what leads up TO marital intercourse. In that case, is it OK for "non genital-genital" stimulation to occur? .... assuming the intent is to get to that point?
 
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Besides it being a sin of impurity, it is also a sin of selfishness, since a person is not involved in a sexual act with their spouse, but only with themselves.
But is the blame not being shifted? Is masturbation ITSELF sinful, or the selfishness? If masturbation is sinful BECAUSE you're not with your spouse... (and I don't want to get too graphic here, but...) what about if "non-genital-genital" stimulation is occurring in order to make sex plausible. You can't just drop your pants and say "ready.... go." If nothing else, that's a right good way to offend a woman.
bafriend said:
It is a sin because the Church says it.
Please... I don't want sarcastic comments. I actually do want to know the logical, bible-based reasoning for the blanket statement that masturbation is inherently sinful under all circumstances.

Even I know that it CAN be. It CAN be a very unhealthy thing. People HAVE died because of it (although you have to be pretty imaginative, and not too bright.) ... but it's hard to prove to me that anything is ALWAYS a certain way... which is why I'm asking for honest guidance on the subject from people who have a different biblical interpretation than I do. "Because the church says so" is a secondary effect. "The church" is bible-based... The church can only say so if the bible says so... so to say something is a certain way "because the church says so" only begs the question of "what in the bible causes the church to say so." Because we can't assume the church is saying something not supported by the bible.

... and you guys are way ahead of me... I'm only done reading through page 1... I'll read more when I get back.


I have a lot of questions still... but I learn via asking questions, so I honestly really do appreciate your guys' input. Please don't think my asking questions means I'm rejecting any of the answers you guys give... it's just for me to fully understand an answer, I have to ask more questions to clarify it.
 
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max1120

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No one here is going to like my response but I am going to offer it.

1. Onan seems to keep poping up whenever masturbation is mentioned. Onan did not sin because he masturbated himself. Here is what did happen. God had killed Onan's brother, Er. Juda asked Onan to have sex with Tamara the widow of his brother Er. This was so he would impreganate her and that the offspring would be declared Er's heir. He had sex with her and at the moment of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] he pulled out and spilt his seed upon the ground rather in the womb of his brothers widow. You see this was more to do with Er's widow's need for an heir so she could claim an inherritance. Onan's sin was his deciet that sin was against his brother Er. God struck him down not for masturbation but for cheating his brother's widow.

2. Masturbation is a perfectly natural and normal function of both male and female sexuality. It is a release and even has physical benifits (at least in males) as it helps to prevent prostate cancer. Many people have been harmed by church teachings otherwise. Such teachings can cause psychological problems for young people that can only become worse in adulthood.

I understand the feelings of those who differ with me on this issue. But it causes a great deal of harm to others when you attempt to put guilt or shame upon others for norman natural sexual feelings.
 
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In particular, if the man finds that he cannot "finish", so he "pleasures" his wife manually rather than leaving her excited and unsatisfied - that's a specific point that was never really defined in our moral teaching. It's certainly a loving and unselfish thing to do.

Exactly! K, I'm glad to see someone shares this opinion. See... masturbation is wrong BECAUSE it's selfish. But that's to say that selfishness is wrong, which we all know. Would you agree that not all instances of manual stimulation are necessarily wrong because it's a very common way to initiate the actual act... to get things going. Therefore it's not the act itself that's wrong, but the selfish intents the act often (but not always) comes with.

Is that all fair to say?

... again... I don't mean to be graphic here... but I noticed it's mostly ladies answering this question. One mentioned that they've heard masturbation can lead to sexual dysfunctions. Like anything, when over-used, that CAN be true... however there IS an issue that's very important for women. MANY women are under-pleased during the act partially because they don't know their own bodies. And how can your husband know your body better than you can? Many sex-therapists point out (and I agree) that it's very good for a loving relationship for the woman to "get to know herself." By doing so, she knows how to use her own body and can "have more fun." Of course, all of this is from secular studies, and even among women, masturbation itself can be viewed as selfish if you're denying your husbands the body you gave him at marriage... but the whole fun of sex is pleasing the other person. So for a woman to learn what she needs, not only does she get "more fun" in the marriage bed, but the husband feels more accomplished by having pleased his wife rather than just "done his duty" and felt selfish himself.

Which brings us back to the problem of masturbation. Do you guys think it's considered selfish to "Practice?" To better please and better be pleased by your spouse, thereby pleasing your partner emotional as well as physically? (assuming that's the actual intent)
it strengthens the sexual instinct
Before marriage, this is a bad thing and can lead to regrettable actions, but within the marriage bed, a strong physical relationship is very healthy, and biblically sound. If, as you say, masturbation strengthens sexual instinct... is that not a GOOD thing within marriage?
gwendolyn said:
the fact that you are sexually stimulating yourself because you desire sexual release
And such a thing is selfish and makes sense that it would be sinful... but Gwen... What if your honest intent is not selfish release, but "practice?" A lot of guys suffer from pre-mature "release." Which is 99% psychological. Is it really selfish to practice to learn the warning signs of your own body so as not to disappoint your wife? Is it not a loving thing to do FOR your wife?

Again... I'm NOT justifying all masturbation or saying that it should have the blanket statement of "it's OK" like secular sex therapists do... But I'm not sure we can make the blanket statement that it's ALWAYS immoral.

While I am "pro-touching yourself" I never said I did it

;)

Ok, I'm sorry, I COULDN'T resist that. I'm a boy and anatomy references are hilarious. ... if this offended anyone, please tell me and I'll edit it out. If you can say before God that you didn't chuckle at all even in your mind! Everyone's naturally childish to some extent.

(woohoo, I'm caught up on the thread)
 
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No one here is going to like my response but I am going to offer it.

Aye, and many people agree with what you pointed out... Even the people here who are against masturbation understand that Onan's a poor example. But the point of this thread isn't to argue for and against... there are plenty of those, and there's an overwhelming number of people who unfairly claim their opinion as fact, and the "anti-masturbation" side doesn't get a fair chance to speak. Therefore this thread is specifically for understanding THEIR side of the argument... not bolstering our own. It's like debate class in highschool... you already know the side you have... this is for people like us to give the other side a fair chance. I know what it's like to be outnumbered in an argument... I'm a JW. And the JW church also teaches that masturbation is wrong, and I've had plenty of conversations on the topic with them as well... which is why I already have so many darn examples thought of. I feel it's important to fully understand my faith... by questioning and testing every aspect of it so I know I have the right one.

But to question my own faith, I have to give opposing viewpoints the chance to fully explain their viewpoints... Either I'll strengthen my own beliefs or learn more correct ones and have those strengthend. Either way, I learn something, I get a SLIGHTLY more accurate understanding of God and his message, therefore I win.

(I'm practicing my conflict resultion/diffusal techniques ^_^)
 
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touching yourself is a sin, it is the use of sexual organs for something other then sex, so it is in the same class as, but on a lower leval then, homosexual sex and beastiality.

Interesting viewpoint... so you say it's a sin flat out, regardless of the situation?

Boys' sexual organs are also used to urinate... nonsexually. Girls use their sexual organs to have babies... and pushing a baby through there is not exactly sexual.

... I think you need to word that a little more carefully. Unless you consider urination and having a baby a sin.
 
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Globalnomad

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YES, Rhamiel....

we all know that, this is a Catholic board! The discussion is going beyond this! The question is, what constitutes masturbation within the definition of the sin.

Without getting too graphic myself, Gregorian, the examples that you brought up can almost completely come under the category of "foreplay". Including the "practice" aspect, which can be undertaken after marriage and can be (in fact, it's much nicer if it is) mutual rather than self-directed. Manual stimulation as foreplay has never been outlawed by the Church. Whether self-stimulation in the context of foreplay is allowed; or whether it is allowed for the woman to reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] other than by penile stimulation; those details have never been defined: the Church does not go into graphic details, either! All we are told is that the man may not reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] other than inside the vagina.

Going away from the graphic details and into the true spirit of these moral laws, lust is selfish sexual desire. You can lust after your spouse too, if your desire is selfish and does not take into account their wishes and pleasure. A man who habitually goes home and grabs his tired and headachy wife for a quickie, is certainly sinning. (But this is a complex subject of marital give-and-take, and of being able to give in to the other's wishes gladly and lovingly from time to time, let's not get into it.)

Yes, in the end, selfish pleasure-seeking is at the root of this whole subject.
 
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Bartek

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First, JPII indicated that one should, ideally, not lust after their wife. You could say its important to be affectionate and open to one another.

Masturbation denatures ones sexuality, and objectifies one sexual faculties. It can also be addictive, just as people go into addiction centers for sex addiction, which leads you in the wrong direction. One should seek to control their sexuality, lest some more tragic sin occur.

I know 3 men, who are serious added. All of them have to use psychotherapy and one is yet divorced, because his wife had enough pornography in their hous and touching yourself of her husband.
Maybe it is a good question - is my personal pleasure (because it's only one job and effeckt of touching yourself) really worth so much. If someone thinks, that touching yourself is ok - he/she should look aroud, there are enough many people, who have problem with touching yourself or even broken life because of that to still keep thinking that it's ok.
 
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Rhamiel

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... I think you need to word that a little more carefully. Unless you consider urination and having a baby a sin.
thank you, I do have to be more careful with my wording but I wrote that early in the morning before I had any sleep. those are natural things and ofcourse not sinful.

Globalnomad
we all know that, this is a Catholic board!
some people were saying touching yourself was natural and healthy, I was just pointing out that it is based on disorder, I did not see anybody mention the un-natural quality of touching yourself in this thread, just that it is a sin, not that it is a sin that goes agianst Gods design of nature
 
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max1120

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I disagree with the concept that "lust" is selfish. Think of this way you "lust" after your wife. This physical urge drives you to perform a sexual act with your spouse, from which you both derive sexual pleasures. This thus strengthens the bonds of your relationship. How can the "lust" therefore be wrong. Assume we are married and over 50 or 60 (i am not) but assume that to be the case. There is no realistic expectation of procreation if my spouse and I have sex. Therefore our being drawn together sexually is going to have to come from lust. Otherwise why would we bother to have sex at that point in life.

Sex is a from of recreation. It is only selfish if the other party treats it as such. What if both parties to act do not expect more than sexual pleasure from the act? How is either of them harmed. How could there be a "selfishness" to the act under those circumstances?
 
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max1120

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Ah, so you can lust? Lust is not only good its healthy...masturbation prevents prostate cancer in males. It should not be used as weapon to cause others pain. Telling people that its a sin makes them feel it is wrong and gives them guilt issues that can damage them for t he rest of their lives. Seeing children harmed by this mentality is really sad.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Like I already said, do not confuse desire for one's spouse with sinful lust. It is not the same thing. You can desire your spouse, and not lust; but you can also lust after your spouse and therefore sin. Lusting after your spouse would entail not caring about him/her, using him/her as a means to an end, only caring about getting off, etc.
 
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Rhamiel

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masturbation prevents prostate cancer in males.
well if I kill people and take there cash, I can buy better things for myself and have a more comfrotable life, looking at worldly benefits does not make something not a sin
It should not be used as weapon to cause others pain. Telling people that its a sin makes them feel it is wrong and gives them guilt issues that can damage them for t he rest of their lives. Seeing children harmed by this mentality is really sad.
sin is sin, people do not like to hear what they do is a sin, but it can be done is a responsible and loveing way. the goal is not to mess up kids, but to lead them to a healthy relationship with God
 
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max1120

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Rhamiel, I think comparing masturbation or lust to killing people and taking their cash.

1. Most (all) people do not agree to be killed or have their cash. Most would be quite opposed to such as thing being done to them. I am one of them..lol

2. If the masturbation hurts no one. Lusting is no more than sexual daydreaming. I think its sad that anyone would want to make a sin out of day dreaming. No one is hurt no one is killed.

3. Looking at another man/woman lustfully is going to happen. Its natural. It occurs in other animals not just humans.
 
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