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Masturbation... is it wrong?

Eph. 3:20

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Chavez said:
The thing within the heart that can grow monstrous and deceitful. And that thing is lust.

Can you prove it Biblically? Let's make sure we have the proper definition of the word before we start to dictate what is and isn't sinful behaviour...

The word used as lust "epithumeo" (Strongs #1937) is the exact same word used in Rom. 7:7, 13:9, "...for the Law said, thou shall not covet." That is what Christ was trying to teach us. It is wrong to put your "fixation" on a object, person or whatever and "desire" to have that "thing" for our own. It is "to strongly desire to have what belongs to someone else..." (pg. 291. 25.20, The Greek-English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains).

We know in most cases lust has a very bad connotation, but unless we know more, we won't know exactly what God wants us to avoid.

Notice these passages...
"If you see a beautiful woman and desire her..." Duet. 21:11. Obviously this is a man who has seen a woman physical beauty and desires to have her and it is approved and provided for in His law. The question is what makes this different from lust of the eyes? Why is one condemned but the other approved? What about the fact that many of the OT saints looked upon a beautiful unmarried woman and desired to have her as his second or third wife . All of this occurred with God's approval hundreds if not thousands of times in the OT. It's obvious that this does not constitute "lust of the eyes" or "committing adultery in one's heart." It should be apparent that "lust of the eyes" is something more than looking with sexual appreciation.

Human nature is such that every "normal" male is sexually attracted to a pretty woman. He doesn't have to work into it, it is simply there. It is automatic for a man to delight in the sight of a beautiful woman and to have a strong sense of her sexuality. It is all part of one package. It is part of the attraction of the sexes for each other. For a woman to look at a man and find him sexually attractive is as normal as for a man to look the same way at a woman. It is the way God made people. Surely no one thinks that a single man is attracted to and motivated to marry a woman without any thought of sexuality! Such thoughts and desires are a strong part of courtship for both sexes. When a single man looks at a beautiful woman and has sexual thoughts about her and asks her for a date, he has not sinned. Nor has a woman sinned who delights in the sight of a handsome and sexually appealing man.

Next, we must be honest with the words Jesus used and avoid assigning them meanings that are not valid according to their true definition. As stated above, the word "lust" cannot be properly defined as having sexual attraction to. The word means "desire to posses as one's own," in a covetous way. It is a desire to steal what belongs to another. Simple sexual desire of a man for a woman is not invalid and cannot be made to fit under the definition of "lust." To "lust after" someone or something is to have a strong desire to take what belongs to another. Just as hate is the motivation behind murder, so "lust" or "covetousness" is the motivation behind theft. The Septuigant uses the same Greek word for "covet" in the commandement, "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's wife..."(Ex. 20:17) as it does for the word "lust' in this passage.

It's we moderns who place inaccurate definitions on words of antiquity to try to seperate them to fit into some predifined category. This is not directed at you personally, for I was taught the same thing in seminary. It wasn't until I started to research some of these terms and meanings on my own, that I found that they had different meanings than what we have been led to believe.

Just as the OT commandment tells us that we are not to covet our neighbor's house, wife, property etc...Jesus tells us the same thing. We can admire those things, even appreciate their beauty (sexually or otherwise just like the Shulamite incident, Song of Solomon), but we are not to place upon them that "fixation" to the point that we long for that "thing" that the other person has. To even "desire" to have my neighbor's wife as my own constitutes adultery in the Matt. passage.

So Moses forbade men to "covet your neighbor's wife, or your neighbor's house..." (Ex. 20:17). Lust is not inherently sexual: it is a desire to possess the property of another person. If that covetous quality, the desire to steal- is not there, it is not "lust." As quoted from Erdman's Bible Dictionary, "It can represent any strong desire, including those that are sinful and those that are not." Apart from the desire to steal, it is simply a strong desire, and that is not sinful.

Eph.
 
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Chavez

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Ok..So obviously you have been doing your research. Which is great...'cos so have I..and it is an interesting topic to say the least. But complicated...First off...I do believe it is wrong to imagine scenarios of sexual intent with another person outside of marriage. But then again...imagining having sex within marriage can be just as harmful. It's hard to know when to stop. It's human nature. We will keep wanting more and more.
And what if it took hold so much..that all you though about the particular female was sexual innuendo's? Then of course there would be a problem.
So yeh...lust...desire...it all falls under one..I think we can safely say that it's not as tough as you're making it out to be. Lust is lust. So first we'll go with this:

"Do not lust after her beauty in you heart,
Nor let her allure you with her eyelids."
Proverbs 7:25

Why? Because we want to stay away from temptation lest we're led into it.

In 2 Samuel 11:2 we read that David saw Bathsheba bathing.
Bathsheba was naked, but she was not naked for sexual purposes. What she did was not done to entice anyone. She was merely bathing. Yet the sight of her naked body led to lust and a tragic series of terrible sins by David.

Repeatedly, the Bible warns against lust.

I John 2:16-17, NIV. "For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever."

Many times we have the attitude of "If God gave me this body, shouldn't I be able to enjoy it?" First of all, we have to remember that sex is God's invention. He is the mastermind behind it. This beautiful expression of love was created out of God's own heart as a gift to be experienced between a husband and wife. As we've already said, it is only in marriage that this expression of intimacy can be fully enjoyed to the degree and depth for which it was created.

The more beautiful and unique something is (like sexual intercourse), the more power it holds over our lives, either as a good or bad influence. That is why it is so easy for the devil to corrupt the most precious of God's gifts. God created sex so that we could become one with our husband or wife. Masturbation is a selfish act where we take advantage of and abuse God's gift

God cares about what we do with our bodies, in public or in private, and He doesn't want us to abuse ourselves in any way.

Did you know that in older dictionaries the definition of the word masturbation is "self-abuse"? And if you were to look in a current dictionary under the word self-abuse, the word "masturbation" would be the second definition given.

When masturbating, you are defiling your mind with obscene thoughts and then defiling your body by using it to act out those thoughts. To "defile" something means "to make unclean, to make impure." Matthew 15:19-20a reads, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications ...these are the things which defile a man."

And I believe that we all already know in our hearts that masturbating is wrong. When you engage in this activity, you soon after feel a sense of guilt and shame. This activity does not lift you up spiritually. It brings you down. God did not create our sexual organs so that we could fantasize and have sex by ourselves. God created sexual pleasure as something to be shared and experienced between two people -- a husband and a wife.

Now, you might be thinking, "Well, isn't it still better to touch than to commit fornication?" Maybe in your mind you feel that it is better to touch because at least you are the only one involved. Maybe you believe that it is the "lesser" of two evils.

Well, I don't believe that our loving, holy, all-powerful God wants us to be in situations where we have to choose any evil, whether it be "lesser" or "greater." God doesn't want you to be involved with sin at all!

First of all, masturbation will not truly relieve the sexual pressure that you may feel. It may for a short moment, but in the long run it only creates a deeper desire and capacity for sex, which will lead to more masturbation and, ultimately, the desire for sexual intercourse.

James 1:14-15 tells us, "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." This verse is telling us that all sin begins with a thought, but that when we give in to the thought and act out the sin, we will sink deeper and deeper into sin. Sin always takes you farther than you wanted to go and keeps you longer than you wanted to stay.

When we fantasize and touch, we open our hearts and minds up to strange and perverse thoughts and possibilities. We are giving the devil an open invitation to take residence in our beings. If we do not deal with our evil thoughts, they will take root in our heart. It is for this reason that God is so concerned with our thought life. Jesus came not only to deliver us from our "outward" sins, but also from wickedness that begins in the heart.

Yes, it is very much OK for a man to be attracted to a woman. Yet, attraction is not lust! Remember also Job 31:1 and Matthew 5:28.

Thanks for your time.
sorry if it's too long!
 
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Johnnz

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People use the word lust far too loosely. Lust is a moral action where a person actively engages in a wrong desire. It is not limited to sex either. It's biblical usage is wider than that.

Sin lust involves a deliberate choice is must not be confused with plain old sexual arousal. Arousal occurs in response to a sexual stimulus, and only may move on to become a genuine lust. For example, David was aroused by Batsheba and then began to plot - a deliberate thought process, that existed long after that bathing session was over. He could have just appreciated her and moved on. That teaches us that sexual arousal needs to be carefully appraised, although it is not wrong in itself.

I have had sex only with my wife. I have never desired another woman sexually. But, and especially in younger years, I could be easily aroused by some females. That never altered my moral convictions or led to sexually desiring them.

John
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Chrysalis Kat

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Amen. Finally somebody gets it!!

Lust mean Excess in Desire. That could mean many things that we endulge in. Lust isn't confined to sexual desires!!! If you overdoit in anything you aren't balanced and that isn't following Christ. Having sexual desires isn't the definition of lust. Excessive sexual desires would be a problem. Healthy normal sexual drives are healthy and normal, not sin.
 
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Danhalen

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KindGuardian said:
I don't remember Jesus masterbating neither could I imagine it or imagine him preaching that it was okay to the masses. That simply says something to me then.
Oh the horrible mental images you have conjured in my mind with that post.

If there were a hell, I would immediately be sent there for that image. Thanks alot.
 
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Eve_Sundancer

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I don't remember Jesus masterbating neither could I imagine it or imagine him preaching that it was okay to the masses. That simply says something to me then.
And that's probably because there were better things to talk about in the Bible than the activities of one man's free time.
 
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Weight of Glory

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Hello, everyone. This is my first post. Don't ask me why I had to choose this as my first topic to post on; I really don't know. Perhaps, as was mentioned earlier, I am one of those stereotypical, youg adult, Christian males who can't quit thinking about sex.

The question of the topic is whether masturbating is an immoral thing to do. Now, that is a rather large question in itself, and I am not quite sure that it could be satisfactorily answered in the broad sense that the question itself begs. To answer the question we must agree on the definitions of, among other things, lust, sexual arousal, sexual sin, marriage, adultery, and so on. This would be quite difficult, although I am not willing to say that it would be impossible. However, I will still attempt to share some thoughts in a semi-linear fashion in the hopes that they will be helpful.

The first thing I would like to point out is that, generally, the two groups (Christian and non-Christian) are not debating the same thing. The Christians are quoting the Bible until they are almost blue in the face; and after they have they cannot quite understand why the heathen debaters do not immediately fall on their faces before the Divine Truth. The non-Christians are asking, until they are almost blue in the face, not for Bible quotes or the doctrine of the Catholic church, but for an argument against masturbation (since this seems to be, in the main, the Christian position) based solely on reason or biology.

The Christians (as a whole) do not seem to think that reasoning is necessary except to prove that the Bible says that masturbation is the devil. They must understand that non-Christians do not accept the Bible as authoritative and if we want to persaude them of our views we must either convert them or persuade them with reason.

The non-Christians must at least understand that Christians as a whole believe that something can be true even if it is not accessible to reason. (i.e., God works in mysterious ways. On a side note, it is also a very strange fallacy that says because we cannot catch Omnipotence red-handed he must not exist. Do you think that God, on the assumption that there is such a being, ought to run yapping to our lab beakers like a lapdog whenever we bid him come?) The Christian position is not that God's works are unreasonable or chaotic; our conception of God as the divine law-giver precludes that. Rather, we believe that some truths are supra-reasonable. What we mean by that is this: that some truths we do not comprehend now, but if we knew all the circumstances we would.

Whew. This is going to be a long post. Sorry, guys. (And girls.That was for the feminists in the room. )

Let me also speak on some side issues before I continue.

On the effects of sexual repression:

It was asserted earlier in this post that not masturbating was harmful to one's health. I defy you (in the nicest manner) to give me three examples of how not masturbating could potentially harm your health. I am aware that it was also earlier stated that not masturbating increased your risk of prostrate cancer. I am curious as to how this was scientifically investigated. Did they follow life-long abastainers medical records until their death and find that the prostrate cancer rate was indeed higher in them than in the rest of the population? If so, I should like to see the study. I also think it would be rather hard to find these life-long abstainers. I imagine that there are not many. (I would also like to note that a hundred years ago, the prevailing moral attitude towards masturbation considered masturbation a moral wrong. In the medical records of the time, masturbation was considered unhealthy and assumed to cause numerous ailments. Now masturbation is considered by mainstream society to be not only a neutral act but almost a positive virtue- and now our medical community considers not masturbating an unhealthy thing and assumes it is the cause of numerous ailments. This is not conclusive, in itself, but I find it interesting that the medical community, on this particular issue, tends to reflect the attitudes of the prevailing culture of the time. [And before you begin to tell me that the difference is an increase in medical knowledge, please note the above where I asked for some medical evidence of this!])

Also, it was earlier asserted that the repression of sexual feelings led to a markedly increased interest in sexual activity and was harmful to the individual repressing his or her feelings. I cannot believe that anyone, looking at our world, could believe that such is the case. Since the prevalent attitude towards sex and masturbation has become liberalized, the interest in sexual acts (as assessed by increasing proliferation of pornography and the general content of mainstream media) has grown to nearly obessesive levels. Some statistics:

Rape rates have increased by 500% since the 1960s. Researcher Dr. W. Marshall noted that 86% of rapists were regular users of pornography and that 57% admitted that they had directly imitated a pornographic scene when raping someone. (Journal of Sex Research, May 1998, pgs. 267-88.)

N2H2's databse contained 14 million identified pages of pornography in 1998, so the growth to 260 million porn pages in 2003 represents and almost 20-fold increase in just five years. (N2H2, 9/23/03, as quoted by the website w w w . protectkids.c o m/dangers/stats

According to one study, early exposure (under fourteen years of age) to pornography is related to an increase in deviant sexual practices, particularly rape. (Journal of Sex Research, May 1998, pgs. 267-88.)

I think this is enough to evidence (there is plenty more if you are willing to look) that our increased sexual activity or lust (as evidenced by pornography usage) does not decrease but rather increases our desires for sex and also may cause some harmful psychological and moral problems. (Please note that I am not saying all lusters or masturbators or porn purveyors are sexual deviants and rapists. However, I believe that the extreme examples tellingly reveal this near sex worship's true nature; on the lines of saying that although arsenic may have ill effects that you really can't see in very small doses, we may note that it in large doses it kills you. Know, however, that this is only an analogy meant to show the relationship I am talking about, not that masturbation is literally like arsenic.)

If you're still with me, God bless you. You have the patience of Job. (Although Job always seemed rather impatient to me, at least in word if not in deed. [Get it? indeed? Ha...shut up. I like puns, thank you very much ].)

Now, onward to the main argument. If you haven't guessed, I'm on the side that believes that masturbation is a sin. However, let me also offer some qualifications: masturbation, as a physical action, is not, in and of itself, a sin. However, the thoughts that almost always accompany it are what may be deemed, in a Christian sense, "lustful", and this is therefore the real issue. Nobody "flogs the dolphin" because he or she thinks it is good for them; of this I am fairly sure. If you touch, not because you are thinking of having sex, but because you are trying to prevent prostrate cancer, you are a strange individual. In any case, every male and female I have ever known that I knew something about whether they masturbated (which is probably too many to be much aid in my own virtue!), masturbated for the sexual pleasure of the act in accompaniment with their own thoughts or with "visual aids" (lol). Thus it is not the act itself (masturbating) that is the sin but why we touch. The reason why we get that confused is becaused there is really only one reason why we touch!

So, I think the real issue here is the sex act (including lustful thoughts) itself and what limits may be proscribed for it. Although it is difficult to do this without reference to some form of divine revelation, I shall here attempt it without any, for the sake of all the masturbators out there. I will take it as an excerpt from an unfinished collection of essays I'm currently writing.

If a person always follows their basic instincts, it will inevitably lead to the breakdown of man; and, if practiced on a larger scale, the breakdown of society.

Why has our society become the nearly depraved thing it has become today? I am not asking why crime or depraved people exist. They have always existed. My question is why our society's crime rate is rising drastically and why our lifestyles, media, and even our therapy and prescribed drugs reflect a society that is falling into pieces.

I think, at this particula point in time, it is the same reason that contributed to the collapse of the Roman Empire. We have idolized our basic instincts.

Take sex, for example. In its simplest form, sex is simply an act of pleasure between two people, done solely for the sensation or for reproductive purposes as well. Now, a reciprocated act of pleasure between two people, surely, must be a great good. Why not emphasize it our society? It harms no one, or so we think. Why not broadcast its goodness from every television screen, as we are doing now?

There are three reasons why we shouldn't. The first is this: sexual pleasure lasts only a moment, and then it is gone. It follows the law of diminshing returns: the more you have, the more you want, and the less you get. Ought we base our society around and act that fades away in an instant? Should we elevate sex at the expense of love, courage, intellect, work, and all those other things that have typically helped to fulfill people's lives? Ought we to gratify this sexual instinct at every opportunity? If you say no, then you are only saying that limits ought to be prescribed for the sexual act, which is only what I have been trying to say the whole time. We may differ on where the limits start and stop, but it is more important that we at least agree on whether there shoudl be limits at all.

The second reason is this: outside of those relationships where sex is an act of selfless giving and equally selfless receiving, sex involves nothing other than the impulses of our own bodies. The things that separate humankind from animals- intellect and the higher emotions- are not present to any appreciable degree within the act. So, although it is a good thing within certain limits (just like all of our desires), to venerate it and slip into nearly everything we see and hear will eventually cause our own decay as human beings; for if we focus our attention on, not the things that make us human, but the attributes we share with animals, we shall swiftly lose our humanity and become animals.

The third reason is this: except inside a loving monogamous relationship, where the two people care about each other and want to please and fulfill each other, sex is inherently selfish. It is the use of another human being for MY pleasure and what makes ME feel good. All of the great moral teachers of the ages have agreed that thinking only of yourself is the worst thing you can do. I think that unselfishness being a virtue is also one that all of us can agree on.

A note: I am quite aware that some people outside of monogamous loving relationship will tell you that they have sex to make others feel good. I think that this is highly unlikely. If they focus on the other's pleasure in such a relationship, it is very probable that they do so for the benefits it brings: the affection they get from the perosn they pleasured, the renown they may get if the other perosn tells how good they were in bed, the sense of worth theyd derive from being good at something, or even the feeling of being desirable. (I'm sure there are more I could add.)

Man. I planned to write more on this and move onto the masturbation specifically (although I feel as if I put across a substantial part of my argument already, building from the ground up) but I'm really tired. It's 1:15 in the morning and I have to get up at 5:45 for a trip, bright and early (actually, that's so early it's not even bright yet )- notwithstanding the fact that I still have to pack. Anyway, hope this contributed to the discussion, and I'm looking forward to thoughts and critiques of my argument. When I return from my trip I'll post part two.

Peace be with you. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ rest on all who love Him.




 
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sparklecat

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Welcome; I'm sure you'll fit right in
Not necessarily. I'd accept a Bible quotation as valid on this subject, since it indeed is valid for the Christians. However, I don't see that the Bible spells it out, and I personally see more benefit than harm from the act. So yes, you'd have to show me wrong in the latter case to change my mind.
Hardly supra-reasonable, or inaccessible to reason if we just don't have all the facts. I could discuss a good deal of this paragraph, but I'll leave it.
It was asserted earlier in this post that not masturbating was harmful to one's health. I defy you (in the nicest manner) to give me three examples of how not masturbating could potentially harm your health.
Well, it harms my emotional health, and being in poor emotional health can end up affecting you physically if it gets bad enough. Other than that, I'm a girl... not much risk of prostate cancer here.
[And before you begin to tell me that the difference is an increase in medical knowledge, please note the above where I asked for some medical evidence of this!])
No idea where the study is; I'll leave that to someone else. But I would certainly ascribe the change in attitude to a change in medical knowledge. Comparing the two time periods you mentioned and saying culture is the reason for the different attitude is frankly ridiculous.
Also, it was earlier asserted that the repression of sexual feelings led to a markedly increased interest in sexual activity and was harmful to the individual repressing his or her feelings.
It certainly leads to a lot more guilt and obsession over the issue when the person in question does 'fall.'
And what percent of the pool of potential rapists are regular users of pornography?
My first instinct here is to say 'so?' But then, I don't see pornography as negative. Regardless, is the increase in that area any greater than the increase in everything else?
I certainly won't argue that it increases our desires. But I can't agree it causes psychological or moral problems. Some people will always do things generally considered immoral by society, but to blame pornography because they use it doesn't follow. The majority of rapists are men; correlation does not equal causation
If you're still with me, God bless you. You have the patience of Job. (Although Job always seemed rather impatient to me, at least in word if not in deed. [Get it? indeed? Ha...shut up. I like puns, thank you very much ].)
I must now hate you forever
So this 'lust' is always bad? Define your term, please. What counts as a lustful thought?
If a person always follows their basic instincts, it will inevitably lead to the breakdown of man; and, if practiced on a larger scale, the breakdown of society.
Basic instincts include eating, sleeping, etc. Therefore, bah. Our basic instincts are instinctual for a reason.
There are three reasons why we shouldn't. The first is this: sexual pleasure lasts only a moment, and then it is gone. It follows the law of diminshing returns: the more you have, the more you want, and the less you get.
Why 'the less you get?'
Should we elevate sex at the expense of love, courage, intellect, work, and all those other things that have typically helped to fulfill people's lives?
Certainly not.
Not at all. Any limits should be self-imposed, not prescribed. If people are acting in a way that is harmful, they need to realize that and change on their own, not be forced to. So no, no limits beyond rape/child abuse.
Nicely said. And I won't disagree that our society, our media, overdoes it. But I will never be a proponent of governmental restrictions. We will grow, in time.
One, there's no reason that monogamous needs to be there. Two, is it still so bad if one attempts to please their partner, even if they don't intend to carry on a deeper relationship?
I sympathize. 6 am here, and I've spent the night cleaning and packing to move to another continent!

Thanks for the post; I enjoyed it.
 
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flicka

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I think people should get past the idea that 'lusting' is what masturbation is all about. Yeah sure, perhaps you young guys have images of *naked ladies* in your head while doing it but lets be honest. It's not those images in your head making you want to touch, its the hormones coursing through your body. Cause and effect. The hormones do their thing (hopefully) and the effect is based on what you have been conditioned to think about (IE: *naked ladies*).

The truth is that it's done for no other reason than because it feels good to do it. Thats why children who don't yet know about *naked ladies* do it. And as for women..well I'm sure plenty can claim they don't think about *naked men* so you see, the sin really is all in your heads.
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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Weight of Glory said:
Hello, everyone.
Howdy Weight of Glory We have seen an increase in the reporting of rape since the 1960’s for a number of reasons that may have nothing to do with incidences of rape occurring. Rape was long referred to as the most unreported crime in the world.
The definition of what constitutes raped has changed dramatically since the 60’s as well. The term ‘date rape’ didn’t exist. Women that were raped by their husbands had no legal recourse either. Women that didn’t come away from a rape totally black and blue were systematically disregarded by society and in the courts.
Not to mention that the rape of males wasn't even considered and it is now. Yes, pornography has increased. It’s a booming business. Just like many other that have grown remarkable since 1998. Especially computer related businesses.
According to one study, early exposure (under fourteen years of age) to pornography is related to an increase in deviant sexual practices, particularly rape. (Journal of Sex Research, May 1998, pgs. 267-88.)
And the statistics for kids that were exposed to porn that didn’t show an increase in ‘deviant sexual practices’ are ????
What other factors just might be influencing these kid’s behavior other than just their exposure to porn?Drugs? Bad parenting? Abuse?Humm....

 
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Eph. 3:20

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Hey Chavez,
The very passages you cite only strengthen my argument that lust is the inordinate desire placed on a thing that leads one to possess that thing. In all Biblical research we must be able to prove our position with Scripture, if we can't it's mere opinion which is useless in establishing Divine Law.

Chavez said:
"Do not lust after her beauty in you heart, Nor let her allure you with her eyelids." Proverbs 7:25

Who is the woman he is talking about and what is her marital status?
Notice vs. 5, "they will keep you from the adulteress, from the wayward wife with her seductive words." She is a married woman. It is wrong to possess or desire to possess a married woman. Thats what the whole passage in Mathew 5:28 is about. It's about desiring a married woman. It's both wrong to commit a sinful action and it's equally wrong to have thoughts and desires that lead to sinful action.


Yes you are right here. Bathsheba was a married woman. His sin was not the gain of another wife (for he could of had as many as he wanted, God Himself tells us that)...it was his taking the wife of another man. His charge was adultery. This parallels the Matt. 5 hypothetical exactly He saw a woman bathing;The woman was very beautiful to behold (David committed adultery in his heart up on the roof, he desired to have her for his own). David pursues the temptation. David sent messengers, and took her and lay with her (he seizes the opportunity to commit adultery in practice). Let's stop here. This is adultery. Not because he was having sex with another woman; he could of had sex with another wife, a concubine or a slave under his care. He stole another man's wife for his own possession. Evil thoughts lead to evil actions.

Property is an extension of the owner. To violate my property is to violate my person. It is to steal something from me. Just as hate is the motivation behind murder, so "lust" or "covetousness" is the motivation behind theft. In marriage, violation of property rights by taking, or seeking to take a married woman from her husband, is adultery. Adultery is present in the intention, even when it is not enacted. The lesson of Matt. 5:27

The bottom line is that God has nowhere condemened the practice of men and women looking at other men and women, whether married or unmarried with sexual appreciation. This is simply a fact.


Where does Scripture say this??? What about the OT practice of concubinism? Are we to say the King David was sinning everytime he had sex with one of his concubines? Are you saying that it is illegal for any of the OT saints to have sex with their concubines or slaves? If so, where is the rebuke from God? This happened thousands of times in the OT, but where is one mention of His disapproval?


Wait, what about the married couple the doesn't have the ability to share sex due to impotence, physical disability or whatever...are they not one? The point of being "one" (Heb. echad) is unity, like Christ and His church are one....“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31)

Furthermore, It is not abuse. Anything can be abused and anything can take over your life. The simple act of eating can turn into gluttony if over indulged, it does not make the act of eating sinful.



You missed the most practical point of this whole passage. It is out of the heart that sin dwells within. It is not the things that we do or we don't do that make us holy or unholy, it is our heart condition. When God looks at a person, He looks at their heart. He doesn't judge us by our outward actions. Our outward actions should be reflected of a good heart condition. What if i think about my wife when/if I touch. Is it okay then? We can't say that masturbation is inherently sinful if it allowed in some respects but not in others. Again, any action can lend itself to abuse.

God did not create our sexual organs so that we could fantasize and have sex by ourselves.

This begs the question...why did He put it within arms reach?

Eph.
 
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Chavez

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Ok....that was a very interesting read..
but it's 1.30am here and I don't think I could answer you with a proper mind cos I'm so tired!
lol..
but aright....I will tomorrow! Don't worry! hehe...
Just one thing that I have to say...
Why did he put it within arms reach...
standing beside somebody with a knife in your hand...


I don't think it was wrong...he was within my reach..why did God put him there.
I shall return tomorrow and have a nice debate..
ciao
 
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KindGuardian

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This begs the question...why did He put it within arms reach?

You act like there is a part of our body we can't reach, the furthest place from my hands are my feet... and I can still touch my feet and clip my toe-nails all I want.
 
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