Masturbation as a Sin (A Different Approach)

Dave-W · Aug 16, 2018

Tetra said:
Can I ask you a question, I tend to get confused as to who (or who's) is being referenced throughout Song of Solomon. I keep getting mixed up if it is fact singular or plural. While I'm sure most conservative Christians would argue for it being in the singular, do you know more on this?

The primary actors are Solomon and Shulamite (a wife of his). The Song is written primarily from her viewpoint. Interestingly, almost every one of the incidents speaking to arousal, desire and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] are hers, not his.

For example "daughters of Jerusalem".

In most ancient story arcs, whether in poetry (like SoS) or in plays, there is a "chorus" that adds backdrop to the scenes. That is what the Daughters of Jerusalem are in this poem.

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

Valetic said:
This is the only thing I can really touch base with. Pornography literally means evil sex pictures. Porno comes from pornaeia which means the evil sex and graphe means picture so put the 2 together that's how we got it. So by your definition of sinlessness its not actually porn but something else that maybe you can put a word on? If it's not evil sex then what kind of sex picture is it?

I was going by it's current use and definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography

Also, I was unaware the term "evil" was part of the etymology:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/pornography

Tree of Life · Aug 16, 2018

Dave-W said:
Not so.

Porn- from pornas - a class of female sex slaves in Greek culture
-graphy from graphos meaning writing or drawing. (graphics)

Put it together; you have the writings or drawings of prostitutes.

Pornea means sexual immorality. Graphos would be picture. So pictures of sexual immorality. Close enough.

Tree of Life · Aug 16, 2018

Tetra said:
What do you mean by "literally means"?

Current definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography

A video of myself and spouse technically meets the current definition, no?

Pornea is a Greek word meaning "sexual immorality".

Dave-W · Aug 16, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Pornea means sexual immorality.

True. That word is from pornas - sex slaves. Different ending changes the definition of the word.

Off-topic aside comment:

Pornia as used in NT text follows the usage of the Greek speaking Jewish diaspora communities (see Acts 15) and means anything that violates the OT sexual laws.

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Pornea is a Greek word meaning "sexual immorality".

Tree, I think we're arguing a bit of semantics here. Very few people, Christian or otherwise are going to be using new testament Greek to define the word in it's current usage, come on man.

I've already clearly stated I was using it in reference to it's current usage:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography

Valetic · Aug 16, 2018

If masturbation isn't a sin then does that make a person a virgin? Not the intercourse virginity but biblical virginity.

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

Valetic said:
If masturbation isn't a sin then does that make a person a virgin? Not the intercourse virginity but biblical virginity.

Good question, I'm not trying to be difficult here, but can you direct me to Scripture or what you mean by Biblical virginity?

Dave-W · Aug 16, 2018

Tetra said:
Very few people, Christian or otherwise are going to be using new testament Greek to define the word in it's current usage, come on man.

Which means that pastors are falling down on teaching their congregations.

Dave-W · Aug 16, 2018

Valetic said:
Not the intercourse virginity but biblical virginity.

How do you define the difference??

Valetic · Aug 16, 2018

Dave-W said:
Which means that pastors are falling down on teaching their congregations.

Well I think a better question is what language did we actually derive the English word from? What are the roots of the English word? Pornography isn't in the bible that we can translate it from there but it's in our history and dictionary.

grasping the after wind · Aug 16, 2018

Tetra said:
Is it ALWAYS a result of lust? Would it be immoral to therefore "lust" after your spouse?

Certainly. Lust is lust. It can be argued that spousal love is supposed to be the center of intercourse between married people not spousal lust. From that perspective, If it is one's purpose to pleasure oneself then it is lust and therefore sinful. If it is one's purpose to pleasure one's spouse that would be love and not only not sinful but virtuous.

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

Dave-W said:
Which means that pastors are falling down on teaching their congregations.

Yes. I guess my point was, when using it's current definition, why play a game to say that we were in fact all using it in it's historical context. Clearly that's not the case. If we want to discuss what porn was 2000 years ago, I'm all for using the appropriate definition.

TuxAme · Aug 16, 2018

Masturbation is always sinful, as is any sort of sexual activity outside of marriage.

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

grasping the after wind said:
Certainly. Lust is lust. It can be argued that spousal love is supposed to be the center of intercourse between married people not spousal lust. From that perspective, If it is one's purpose to pleasure oneself then it is lust and therefore sinful. If it is one's purpose to pleasure one's spouse that would be love and not only not sinful but virtuous.

What's the difference between "spousal love" and "lust" in your view? So whenever a partner wishes to be pleased, it's a sin?

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

TuxAme said:
Masturbation is always sinful, as is any sort of sexual activity outside of marriage.

Did you read the thread? How can masturbation ALWAYS be sinful if you can touch within marriage??

Dave-W · Aug 16, 2018

grasping the after wind said:
, If it is one's purpose to pleasure oneself then it is lust and therefore sinful.

I await the input on Song of Solomon 5.2-5.

She was pleasuring herself and is called "undefiled."

Tetra · Aug 16, 2018

Dave-W said:
I await the input on Song of Solomon 5.2-5.

She was pleasuring herself and is called "undefiled."

Don't hold your breath.

2tim_215 · Aug 16, 2018

Definition of lust (merriam-webster)
noun
1 obsolete
a : pleasure, delight
b : personal inclination : wish
2: usually intense or unbridled sexual desire : lasciviousness

He was motivated more bylust than by love.

3a : an intense longing : craving

a lust to succeed

b : enthusiasm, eagerness

admired his lust for life

lust is lust regardless if it's over your wife or over some one else or over your dead wife. Might be time to move on.

grasping the after wind · Aug 16, 2018

Tetra said:
What's the difference between "spousal love" and "lust" in your view? So whenever a partner wishes to be pleased, it's a sin?

I thought I laid that out( no pun intended) earlier. If one is mainly considering one's own pleasure that is lust and if one is concentrating on one's spouse's pleasure that is love. Both partners will wish to also be pleasured but they ought not be motivated mainly by their own pleasure as that puts the spouse in the position of being a means to an end rather than the loved one whose welfare is of great importance.

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