Masons

timewerx · Jan 31, 2013

Albion said:
You have images but you excuse yourself;

I'm trying to follow the example of Jesus.

No. The 'eye' is not a Masonic invention.

But whoever adopted it in masonry approved of it.

But YOU supposedly are not.

I'm sorry, but that is not going to convince anyone who believes in the Bible or just common sense.

How can you believe in the Bible if you can't refute me with it?

So your theories that Jesus didn't use money and that you are somehow exempt from the standards you say are against the Bible fall flat.

Link my post that I said or even implied that Jesus didn't use money.

Would the ministry of Jesus collected money for nothing?

There were images on the coins, yes. We know this from history but also because when he said to "give unto Caesar...." it was in connection with the fact of Caesar being pictured on the coin

This is the only known images Jesus had and also the coins. So why it had to be money. Is it because money can be used to help yourself and others and sustain life? Can a graven image be eaten for food? Maybe if you sell it but then you begun to treat it like money.

timewerx · Jan 31, 2013

Anyhow it seems to me that nobody else is learning from this exercise so I'm now excusing myself from this thread.

If freemasons think likewise as you and try to find every loophole in the Truth just so they can have their fraternity, then I'm doubting their Christianity.

Matthew 5:41:
If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

"Do not make graven images", not even a peep of obedience, even remotely, the "extra mile" to do more than what is asked

Albion · Jan 31, 2013

timewerx said:
I'm trying to follow the example of Jesus.

But whoever adopted it in masonry approved of it.

How can you believe in the Bible if you can't refute me with it?

I did it several times in that last post alone, so it looks like we're at the end of this. You're just going around in circles now.

Skip Sampson · Feb 3, 2013

Albion said:
The eye of God is a well-established and historic Christian symbol.

Maybe, but Freemasonry adds quite a bit to it. Here's what the KY GL has to say about it:

In most of the ancient languages of Asia 'eye' and 'sun' are expressed by the same word, and the ancient Egyptians hieroglyphically represented their principal deity, the sun-god Osiris, by the figures of an open eye, emblematic of the sun, by whose light we are enabled to see, and which itself looks down from the midst of heaven and beholds all things. In like manner Masons have emblematically represented the omniscience of the Great Architect of the Universe. (from an optional lecture by Brown; falls under the drawing of the eye of Osiris. KY Monitor, 1990, pg. 116)

the sword, pointing to a naked heart, demonstrates that justice will sooner or later overtake us; and although our thoughts, words, and actions may be hidden from the eyes of man, yet that all-seeing eye, whom the sun, moon and stars obey, and under whose watchful care even comets perform their stupendous revolutions, pervades the inmost recesses of the human heart, and will reward us according to our merits. (KY Ritual, ca 2000, pg. 240)

Notice:
1. How the GL refers back to Egyptian beliefs, and not Christian, in their initial treatment of the subject. The symbol is specifically credited to the god Osiris, who is the Egyptian king and judge of the dead. This is no accident, as the GL explains:

The usages and customs among Freemasons have ever borne a near affinity to those of the ancient Egyptians. Their philosophers, unwilling to expose their mysteries to vulgar eyes, couched their systems of learning and polity under signs and hieroglyphical figures which were communicated to their chief priests or Magi alone, who were bound by solemn oath to conceal them.

2. How the GL states clearly that the deity represented by the all-seeing eye will reward us "according to our merits." This in direct contrast with the Christian 'salvation by faith' creed. This is a key part of the 'spiritual temple' Masonry calls its members to build. As KY explains:

Realizing that man is a builder engaged in the erection of a temple of character fit for the indwelling of the living God, Freemasonry uses the Temple of Solomon as a type to visualize the processes of building and to illustrate the end in view. ... All the labor you have expended and all the efforts you have put forth in the development of your character have been to the end that you might attain the wisdom to know the will of God concerning you and to make of yourself a temple fit for the indwelling of the Most High. (Monitor, pgs. 113 - 115)

The idea of an all-seeing eye symbolizing a god who rewards men for their merits fits perfectly with the idea of the spiritual temple which all Masons are expected to construct. Make the temple perfect by your morality and character, as developed under Masonic instruction, and you will become a fit place for God to dwell in, just as he did in Solomon's Temple. As Solomon built the Temple according to the instructions given before he came to dwell therein, so too the Mason must perfect himself to receive God.

And, of course, the view is unChristian and unBiblical from start to finish. Cordially, Skip.

Drudgeon · Feb 3, 2013

Skip Sampson said:
2. How the GL states clearly that the deity represented by the all-seeing eye will reward us "according to our merits." This in direct contrast with the Christian 'salvation by faith' creed.

Your arguments rely upon nothing more than selective reading. Since Freemasonry offers no plan of salvation, this isn't speaking of salvation, as evidenced by the fact that salvation is not even mentioned.

"And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." - Rev. 2:23

The above is in red letters in the KJV I was given as a child. That must mean someone important said it. Hmm...

Skip Sampson · Feb 3, 2013

Drudgeon said:
Your arguments rely upon nothing more than selective reading.

Hardly. It consists of direct quotes which are on point with the discussion at hand. The referenced quote, though possibly based on Revelation 2:23, does not have the same context and thus does not have the same meaning. Here is the fullness of the Bible quote:

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (Rev 2:20 - 23/NIV 84)

Seen in its proper context, salvation is not the issue of that set of verses; rather it is God's judgment that will be the result of their evil works.

The means of salvation in the Bible is clearly indicated by these key verses (emphasis added):

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son. (John 3:16 - 18)

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household. (Acts 16:29 - 31)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from ourselves, it is the gift of Godnot by works, so that no one can boast. For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:8 - 10))

What comes crystal clear through these verses is the fact that belief in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. The verses from John also show that unbelief is cause for condemnation. Ephesians expressly throws out works (i.e., deeds, merits) as a means of salvation.

Freemasonry offers no plan of salvation, this isn't speaking of salvation, as evidenced by the fact that salvation is not even mentioned.

That's called circular reasoning. The key issue is this: does Freemasonry promise salvation to Freemasons? Based on the statements of ritual and other GL documentation, it clearly does. The specific KY GL comment does indeed point to a god that rewards on merits and this, in conjunction with the Masonic teaching of the spiritual temple, does show that the object of the Mason is self-improvenent which will make him acceptable to God. That is the essence of Masonic salvific lessons. Cordially, Skip.

timewerx · Feb 4, 2013

Skip Sampson said:
Notice:
1. How the GL refers back to Egyptian beliefs, and not Christian, in their initial treatment of the subject. The symbol is specifically credited to the god Osiris, who is the Egyptian king and judge of the dead. This is no accident, as the GL explains:

It can even be traced back to Babylon. There are many research out there on parallels between Nimrod and Osiris and Semiramis, Ishtar, Isis. And connect pagan holidays xmas and easter.

It's a pagan symbol therefore. If you used it, you approved of it, if you're a member you approve of it too.

All the labor you have expended and all the efforts you have put forth in the development of your character have been to the end that you might attain the wisdom to know the will of God concerning you and to make of yourself a temple fit for the indwelling of the Most High. (Monitor, pgs. 113 - 115)

This is actually a false teaching/belief plaguing even many Christian churches. It's not unique to freemasons!

God does not have billions of "Will" tailor-fitted to every human. It's only ONE Will. You don't like it, then you're not part of God's family. God's family has a singular Will because they all related by BLOOD, they all desire to fulfill one and the same thing.

Lastly, King Solomon is probably the worst character in the Bible you can trust.

http://www.atruechurch.info/solomon.html

Drudgeon · Feb 4, 2013

Skip Sampson said:
The key issue is this: does Freemasonry promise salvation to Freemasons?

Absolutely not. The fact that you will disagree does not make it so. And if it did promise salvation, you could provide names of Masons who teach that Freemasonry will gain mankind religious salvation. I'm not talking about your faulty interpretation of the monitor. I'm talking about actual, active members. Not tract or book peddling former members who have sought financial gain by their lies. Actual, active members. You could provide names of members of the Fraternity that say they are relying on the Lodge to gain Heaven. Actual, active members.

You've said this is a universal teaching. So where are these members? If millions of Masons believed that Masonry provides a road to Heaven, why would they deny it? And why would they continue to worship in their churches? This is the tragic flaw of your argument. You can say Masons believe this or that, but cannot provide members to support your claims.

Drudgeon · Feb 4, 2013

It would be interesting, were I a betting man, to see who could get more signatures. You, of course asking Masons if they believe that their membership in the Lodge gets them to Heaven, and I asking Southern Baptists if they believe in the concept of rewards or "crowns" in Heaven.

Cactus Jack · Feb 4, 2013

Boy, you guys sure are taking this discussion pretty seriously. I'm not as fortunate as I know very little about the Freemasons. Other than I tried to join a few times before, and what I encountered shacked me. The intrusiveness and rudeness, asking me questions about my personal life that even my pastor dares not to ask, stuff like that.

I imagine they're a fine charity overall, but I doubt I'll join them.

timewerx · Feb 4, 2013

Skip Sampson said:
That's called circular reasoning. The key issue is this: does Freemasonry promise salvation to Freemasons? Based on the statements of ritual and other GL documentation, it clearly does. The specific KY GL comment does indeed point to a god that rewards on merits and this, in conjunction with the Masonic teaching of the spiritual temple, does show that the object of the Mason is self-improvenent which will make him acceptable to God. That is the essence of Masonic salvific lessons. Cordially, Skip.

Actually, "rewards based on merits" appears quite a lot in OT but is not used in the context of salvation.

It is used in Revelations again but in the context of punishment - judged according to deeds.

I don't think freemasons are teaching salvation in this instance but still, they contradict themselves of claiming not to be a religion. They have everything a religion has and more except openly admitting it.

To put it bluntly, they are lying when they claim not to be a religion for all those rituals they do that seems to involve the "grand architect" every time and saying you can still free practice your own religion....

....I won't be surprised if Joel Osteen turns out to be a freemason for he is practically saying the same thing when he interviewed by Larry King.

A New Dawn · Feb 4, 2013

[c]Admin Hat

I have done a minor clean-up of this thread. If any of your posts are missing, that is the reason.
There is no reason for name-calling. Please keep your remarks civil or the thread will be closed.[/c]

duane washum · Feb 4, 2013

Drudgeon said:
Your arguments rely upon nothing more than selective reading. Since Freemasonry offers no plan of salvation, this isn't speaking of salvation, as evidenced by the fact that salvation is not even mentioned.

"And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." - Rev. 2:23

The above is in red letters in the KJV I was given as a child. That must mean someone important said it. Hmm...

Hi, Drudgeon.

About selective reading: Revelation 2:23 has been cited here, but it appears to have been done out of context. Maybe not, but it sure looks that way. Let's first of all see how v. 23 fares when it is read in context, as Skip pointed out earlier:
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

I see that when Skip posted up to you regarding Rev 2:23, you sorta stepped around it, or maybe I'm mistaken, if so, please pardon my redundancy. So, if you don't mind, could we please clarify that verse and who it is addressing?

As was previously pointed out to you, the line is drawn between the unfaithful and the faithful, beginning with verse 24:

"But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden."

About verse 24, from 'Adam Clarke's Commentary on the New Testament':
"This is the reading of the Complutensian, and seems preferable to the common one, as it evidently shows that the rest of the epistle wholly concerns the faithful, who have not received the former doctrine of error. I will put upon you none other burden is a commendation of the sound part of the Church, that they have no need of any new exhortation or charge to be given them, no new advice but to persevere as usual."

So, rather than the separation of the unfaithful from the faithful being the colon after "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts", it appears as though the word "But" ,at the beginning of v. 24 is the line in the sand.

By most standards, a colon represents a continuation of thought. Looks to be the case here as well. Not saying that you have deliberately misrepresented v. 23; simply suggesting that you have given a misinterpretation of it.

Drudgeon · Feb 4, 2013

Some of the church participated in this, others didn't, but every one is going to be given according to his works. That is how I interpret this verse. You may disagree. C'est la vie.

O.F.F. · Feb 5, 2013

... visit Order of Former Freemasons

Erth · Feb 5, 2013

fatboys said:
I realize that there are many misrepresentations about Masons. And certainly they not are perfect. But why is there such a campaign against them. I have not know many personally who are Masons, but they seem very much like anyone else. Many of the U.S. leaders have been members of the Masons and it was at one time very prestigous to be a member of the Masons. Why the turn around

Is it true or not true that in order to get out of Free-Masonry you have to renounce Jesus Christ? To say that out loud, that is. I heard that is what you have to do from an ex-Mason who actually had to do that.

Albion · Feb 5, 2013

Erth said:
Is it true or not true that in order to get out of Free-Masonry you have to renounce Jesus Christ?

Absolutely untrue. You just write a letter of resignation. Besides, this story doesn't even make sense. You don't have to affirm Jesus Christ in order to belong, so why would you have to renounce him in order to resign?

must To say that out loud, that is. I heard that is what you have to do from an ex-Mason who actually had to do that.

He was not telling you the truth. I personally know a number of Masons who resigned because they are too old to attend meetings or because they no longer had the time for lodge work, and it was as easy as pie for them to do. They all remain on good terms with the Masons they had associated with before, in case you are wondering about that.

Drudgeon · Feb 5, 2013

O.F.F. said:
... visit Order of Former Freemasons

If you check out the link above, please be sure to visit Mike 'Fishy' Gentry.

timewerx · Feb 5, 2013

O.F.F. said:
... visit Order of Former Freemasons

My independent research confirms FM as a religion with many parallels in Judaism. The compass and rule symbol were often drawn in a geometry that looks like the Star of David minus the horizontal lines.

I wouldn't feel nice if Israel had to do with it. There's biblical research linking Israel + USA as the modern-day Babylon as well as guardians of the Babylonian Mysteries (paganism, new age, occult). The same system that executed the prophets and Jesus.

Drudgeon said:
If you check out the link above, please be sure to visit Mike 'Fishy' Gentry.

A mason website would surely be biased against O.F.F.

I read it. From what I can tell, O.F.F is certainly acting as a "double agent" against FM... He may be a member but is now an enemy of FM organization, but still loves other FM members by teaching them the Truth...

Lying to further the goals of Truth is not sinning but lying to deceive for an evil purpose is definitely sin. If freemasonry would openly admit it is a religion, then many Christians would avoid membership to it.

I did find something outrageously ridiculous in it:

[FONT=verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We're not going to get into a full-blown discussion of "Landmarks" here. It is an issue over which perhaps hundreds of thousands of pages of Masonic literature has been devoted. Amongst those pages, there is NO (we'll repeat that: NO!) - agreement on their meaning or even usefulness in or to Freemasonry. [/FONT][/FONT]

A hundred thousand pages of masonic literature with no conclusion!

Drudgeon · Feb 5, 2013

timewerx said:
Lying to further the goals of Truth is not sinning

You have no idea how much reading this hurts me. I took you to be a sincere person, and I said as much near the end of the recently deleted thread.

Show me a man who buttresses his "truth" with lies, and I'll show you a man for whom truth has no meaning.

How does your quoted statement above mesh with 1 John 2:21-22, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 21:27, or Revelation 22:15? I know you cast out the Pauline corpus of the Bible. Do you do the same with 1 John and the Revelation? I hope these are fair questions.

It amazes me that the things Masonry is falsely accused of are admitted as the game plan of those who accuse.

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