Mary's sinlessness

[MoNiCa4316]

So I used google.. and came up with this, from the OCA website:

I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to.

that's kind of what I thought the Orthodox church teaching is too.. maybe I'm missing something though, or not understanding this right..

OCA - Q & A - Sinlessness of Mary

 

[Annoula]

well when I said 'guilt' I didn't mean the emotion but more like being held responsible for the sin, or, being punished for it (ie: going to hell)

we are not responsible for Adam's and Eve's sin.
we just have to live with it's consequences (physical death etc).
if i put my hand in fire, it will get burnt. this is not punishment. it is the consequence of my own behaviour.

also, it's like my mother was taking drugs, and i was born with drugs going up my blood circulation.
i am not responsible of my mother's behaviour but i have to live and fight the consequences of her behaviour.

does that make it more clear?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

dear Monica,

being Orthodox doesn't mean that we know all Church teachings.
as i see no one around that can provide reliable sources (the one i provided has a greek source unfortunately) i have to stress it once more:

Orthodox do not believe in a sinless Mary.

we believe she is the most pious person ever born.

and we don't call her plain Mary. Virgin Mary at the least.

thanks I'm sure you know better than me about the Orthodox teaching. Maybe some Orthodox think she didn't sin and some others think she sinned.. cause I've heard both.. if I'll ever have the opportunity to ask an Orthodox priest as well, I will.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

we are not responsible for Adam's and Eve's sin.
we just have to live with it's consequences (physical death etc).
if i put my hand in fire, it will get burnt. this is not punishment. it is the consequence of my own behaviour.

also, it's like my mother was taking drugs, and i was born with drugs going up my blood circulation.
i am not responsible of my mother's behaviour but i have to live and fight the consequences of her behaviour.

does that make it more clear?

yup thanks.

 

[Annoula]

source: OCA - Q & A - Sinlessness of Mary

"Jesus Christ is Mary's Savior, as well as ours, as testified in her own statement in St Luke -- the Magnificat -- where she says, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." If Mary had been "sin-proofed," so to speak, from all eternity, the Orthodox would argue as to why she would need a Savior. "

i think it's the same article you found ,but my quoting is somewhere below your quoting.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

i am still shocked that there are Orthodox people that believe in a sinless Theotokos...

I am shocked that their are Orthodox who believe she was a sinner :o

The majority of our prayers point to The Theotokos as being Spotless, Incorrupt, Most Pure. That is she never sinned. That doesn't mean she didn't have the capacity to do so, only that she was so dedicated and Holy that she lived a virtuous sinless life.

 

[Annoula]

if I'll ever have the opportunity to ask an Orthodox priest as well, I will.

that would be a good idea.
Orthodox promote person-to-person meetings with priests because a clergy man can explain things better. and also the personal contact is much ...well... "personal"..

 

[Annoula]

I am shocked that their are Orthodox who believe she was a sinner :o

sorry Greg, this is what i have learned.
maybe we confuse "piousness" with "sinless".

isn't Christ the only sinless person?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

source: OCA - Q & A - Sinlessness of Mary

"Jesus Christ is Mary's Savior, as well as ours, as testified in her own statement in St Luke -- the Magnificat -- where she says, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." If Mary had been "sin-proofed," so to speak, from all eternity, the Orthodox would argue as to why she would need a Savior. "

i think it's the same article you found ,but my quoting is somewhere below your quoting.

oki

I believe that Mary needed (and had) a Savior.. Christ.. only He saved her in a different way than any of us. (at her conception) BUT - I know that's not what you guys believe though. So - I won't say more

I am shocked that their are Orthodox who believe she was a sinner :o

The majority of our prayers point to The Theotokos as being Spotless, Incorrupt, Most Pure. That is she never sinned. That doesn't mean she didn't have the capacity to do so, only that she was so dedicated and Holy that she lived a virtuous sinless life.

that would be a good idea.
Orthodox promote person-to-person meetings with priests because a clergy man can explain things better. and also the personal contact is much ...well... "personal"..

I'll try to talk with a priest

 

[Greg the byzantine]

sorry Greg, this is what i have learned.
maybe we confuse "piousness" with "sinless".

isn't Christ the only sinless person?

Christ is the only perfect Human. The Theotokos was not perfect because she was born a fallen human, and shared in our fallen human nature (The fallen Nature which Christ took from the Theotokos and restored, raising it up with him). We call the theotokos "αχραντε" "Spotless" do we not? That's because we believe she was without sins. It's codified into our Hymnography, and our Litrugy.

 

[Kreikkalainen]

Annoula,

Sorry, but the forum you linked to mentions flash.gr as its original source... hardly a source of orthodox theology... as if our Catholic friends quoted CNN, Fox News or maybe RAI Uno as a source of Catholic theology.

There's an awful lot of Orthodox people who do believe the Theotokos was sinless, including several church fathers. Saint Silouan the Athonite (20th century) readily comes to mind (I had some exposure to his writtings a few years ago, so that's why he is the first that pops in mind). We don't make a dogma out of it though & I am aware there are also some other (fewer in number) Orthodox people who don't hold to that too strongly.

She was from birth to death fully human, nothing more and nothing less. She did make human mistakes. For example, her "scolding" her Son when as a 12-year-old He disappeared from her and Joseph & preached in the Temple, that was "bad judgement" on her behalf. Understandably so, because as a human, she really couldn't completely fathom the Miracle that had happened to her & as a Mother, well, she was naturally worried what had happened to her Son. But as for sin, I repeat an awful lot of saints believed she didn't sin & please don't be shocked at that idea.

When we pray to her in the Small Compline (which I should be reading instead of writing this ), we call her Άσπιλε, Αμόλυντε, Άφθορε, Άχραντε, don't we. Sure we don't explicitly say Αναμάρτητε but but but... you get my point don't you... what else is there to say more than what we say already?