Mary's immaculate conception

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

I will not argue such a Biblical point and you are of course free to believe as you choose.

Death is the consequence of that sin. We are not guilty of that sin but we do suffer from the consequence of it...death. Romans says that death was what was passed on.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The term, that abbreviation, has been used many times on these forums, however, in discussions involving members of more denominations than just the Roman Catholic Church.

Understandable because the RCC was the mother of these other denominations, while the EOC did not come out of the RCC.

 

[FenderTL5]

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith, says..
If the Bible teaches one thing and men teach another, then men are wrong and the Bible is correct. It is just that simple.

You are the one going with a Philadelphia Confession.
Romans 5:12 says quite clearly, death was passed on to all men
I'll go with scripture.

 

[Albion]

Well, it is not unlike the popular concept regarding childhood death known as the "age of accountability". Much popular opinion, as I am sure you know, holds that God does not hold a child accountable for his sin if he (or she) dies before reaching an age where they can consciously repent the believe in Jesus Christ.

Exactly the same concept, as a matter of fact. The point is that there is some time in his life when a child is able to discern a difference between something that is acceptable (moral) and something that is wrong to do (immoral)...on their own merits rather than just that Mom and Day say to 'do this' and 'do not do that' and will be mad if the wrong choice is made, etc.

 

[Major1]

You are the one going with a Philadelphia Confession.
Romans 5:12 says quite clearly, death was passed on to all men
I'll go with scripture.

I agree with your comment. DEATH is the result of sin.

Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and SIN BRINGS DEATH, and FOR THAT REASON death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

If you choose to reject the clear Words of God for an explanation of men, then you are free to do so.

 

[Major1]

Death is the consequence of that sin. We are not guilty of that sin but we do suffer from the consequence of it...death. Romans says that death was what was passed on.

Yes, that is true. However are you ignoring the Scriptural fact that SIN BROUGHT DEATH?

However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam as recored in Genesis 5:3.

When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms 51:5.....
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”.

Do we just pretend that that Scriptures does not exist??????

Psalms 51:5 does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

 

[Major1]

I am Orthodox Catholic, not a member of the church of Rome...

Should you then be familiar with the "CCC" as an acronym for the Catholic terminology????

Just seems logical to me. I am NOT a Catholic but I am aware of the meaning of "CCC" when used in context of explaining Catholic doctrine.

 

[Major1]

Not Major's fault, though. It's recognized by most people who've gotten themselves involved in inter-denominational discussions.

The term, that abbreviation, has been used many times on these forums, however, in discussions involving members of more denominations than just the Roman Catholic Church.

Thank you brother. I guess I was a victim of "assumption".

 

[FenderTL5]

You said

I agree with your comment. DEATH is the result of sin.

Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and SIN BRINGS DEATH, and FOR THAT REASON death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

If you choose to reject the clear Words of God for an explanation of men, then you are free to do so.

You keep switching it. The scripture says death was passed to all men. Then you switch it to being sin. It is you that insists on changing what scripture says.

Adam sinned and death was introduced. Death is passed on to all men. All have sinned. fact. We are born into a fallen, sinful world. Our parents are sinners. Everyone we know and come into contact with sins. We sin. It will happen. We are guilty of our own sins which are plentiful enough, not Adam's.

 

[prodromos]

David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms 51:5.....
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”.

The Greek Septuagint translates the Hebrew thus:

ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἐν ἀνομίαις συνελήφθην, καὶ ἐν ἁμαρτίαις ἐκίσσησέ με ἡ μήτηρ μου.​

For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me.​

So we are born into an environment where sin is all around us. We are not born with sin, we are born with mortality, the death that we have inherited from our forefather Adam.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[Major1]

The Greek Septuagint translates the Hebrew thus:

ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἐν ἀνομίαις συνελήφθην, καὶ ἐν ἁμαρτίαις ἐκίσσησέ με ἡ μήτηρ μου.​

For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me.​

So we are born into an environment where sin is all around us. We are not born with sin, we are born with mortality, the death that we have inherited from our forefather Adam.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

You are of course free to believe that. I on the other hand am just as free to believe what I stated.

I am sorry to disappoint you but the Bible declares that there is no human born of women, save Jesus Christ, that is born without a sinful nature.

Ephesians 2:3 says .......
“All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.”

Let us not deceive ourselves. If we were in the Garden, we would also have done what Adam and Eve had done. We can not judge them for “There is no one righteous, not even one” (Romans 3:10). In fact, “no one living is righteous before you(God)” (Psalm 143:2) and “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8) and in reality, “there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11).

Read more: https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/why-are-we-born-sinners-a-bible-study/#ixzz6Thbi9m3N

 

[Major1]

You said
You keep switching it. The scripture says death was passed to all men. Then you switch it to being sin. It is you that insists on changing what scripture says.

Adam sinned and death was introduced. Death is passed on to all men. All have sinned. fact. We are born into a fallen, sinful world. Our parents are sinners. Everyone we know and come into contact with sins. We sin. It will happen. We are guilty of our own sins which are plentiful enough, not Adam's.

That is not the case my friend and I do not believe that I have swiched anything and I certainly do not want to argue with you.

Fact is.....It is Biblically true that Adam sinned and that brought death.

Fact is ....Now it is also true that the moment Adam ate the fruit HE DIED SPIRITUALLY BUT HE LIVE PHYSICALLY ANOTHER 960 YEARS.

Fact is.....The moment he disobeyed God he needed a Saviour to save his spirit/soul but that sin of disobedience caused his physical death 960 years later.

So again.....sin brought death, eventually physical death but death just the same.

Yes we are born into a fallen world.

Yes we are surrounded by sin.

As you said, YES we sin and we sin because WE ARE SINNERS. We are boen with a sin nature.

Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally.

The news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble. Charles Spurgeon said........
“As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”

Personally, I think that if you accept the Bible's answer and NOT the teachings of a denomination of men you will be closer to understanding what happened.

First, Adam was punished because God is just. His justice is demonstrated by the fact that he punishes Adam and Eve. The guilty could not remain unpunished and God yet remain just. That is not rocket science.

Second, the holiness of God is on display here. Holiness cannot be in contact with unholiness. Again.....simple logic!

Third, I could accuse God of being unjust to place on me the responsibility of one man's sin -- THINK NOW----If I did that then I would then also have to correspondingly accuse God of giving(/offering) me the righteousness of Christ.

The logic God applies in Eden is the same he applies at the cross. Either I accept both -- the guilty verdict He placed on me because of Adam, and the righteousness He gave because of Christ -- or I accept neither of them.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

Is that not exactly what happened ???

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I agree with your comment. DEATH is the result of sin.

Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and SIN BRINGS DEATH, and FOR THAT REASON death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam.

If you choose to reject the clear Words of God for an explanation of men, then you are free to do so.

But that does not make us guilty of the "original sin", but we suffer the consequences of it

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Should you then be familiar with the "CCC" as an acronym for the Catholic terminology????

Just seems logical to me. I am NOT a Catholic but I am aware of the meaning of "CCC" when used in context of explaining Catholic doctrine.

Why would I be aware of it? As I said, I am not a member of the church of Rome

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, that is true. However are you ignoring the Scriptural fact that SIN BROUGHT DEATH?

However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam as recored in Genesis 5:3.

When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms 51:5.....
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”.

Do we just pretend that that Scriptures does not exist??????

Psalms 51:5 does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

I did not ignore it, sin brought death. We were made in the image of God. However, that was deformed after the garden. We live in a fallen world and that has influence on us all. We are sinners because we sin. I am not guilty of Adam's sin, I was not in the garden, but I suffer the consequences of it...death was brought into the world...

 

[Major1]

I did not ignore it, sin brought death. We were made in the image of God. However, that was deformed after the garden. We live in a fallen world and that has influence on us all. We are sinners because we sin. I am not guilty of Adam's sin, I was not in the garden, but I suffer the consequences of it...death was brought into the world...

Actually my brother the answer is both YES and NO>

The fact is that Adam sinned. We didn’t. You correctly said and I agree that He was in the Garden of Eden. We were not. When we face God on the day of judgment, the Lord won’t say to us, "Adam sinned, so you are going to pay for it." We are responsible for our own sins, not the sins of others.

But on the other hand we are affected by Adam’s sin. This is how. Before the fall, Adam was sinless, perfect, and good which is seen in Genesis 1:31.

He had a ‘good’ nature. But, after the fall, he became a sinner. His nature was changed from ‘good’ to ‘bad.’ Since we are his children, we inherit his sinful nature which is what I posted for you in Romans 5:12.

In this sense, we suffer for what Adam did; that is, he caused his descendants to have sinful natures and all of us suffer because of it. This is called original sin.

 

[Major1]

Why would I be aware of it? As I said, I am not a member of the church of Rome

I understand that. It just seemed to me that you have been on this site for over 7000 posts and to never have heard the "CCC" as used as an acronym in a conversation over Catholic or even non-Catholic dogmas was strange.

Now that you are aware it can be removed as a topic of conversation.

 

[Major1]

But that does not make us guilty of the "original sin", but we suffer the consequences of it

That is correct my brother.

It means that we have inherited a sinful nature and that all of what we are as individuals (mind, body, soul, spirit, emotions, and thought) is touched by sin. But this does not mean that we are as sinful as we can be. After all, God has written His Law on our hearts which is recorded in Romans 1:19, & 2:15.

In addition, ALL of creation was also affected by the fall. I for one believe that ALL the Universe was affected. God had given dominion of the world to Adam. Adam sinned, and sin entered the "world" as it says in Romans 5:12. That means that death entered the world along with disease, pestilence, earthquakes, famine, etc. They all have their root in the fall. That is why the Bible states that creation is longing for its redemption in Romans 8:18-22.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Actually my brother the answer is both YES and NO>

The fact is that Adam sinned. We didn’t. You correctly said and I agree that He was in the Garden of Eden. We were not. When we face God on the day of judgment, the Lord won’t say to us, "Adam sinned, so you are going to pay for it." We are responsible for our own sins, not the sins of others.

But on the other hand we are affected by Adam’s sin. This is how. Before the fall, Adam was sinless, perfect, and good which is seen in Genesis 1:31.

He had a ‘good’ nature. But, after the fall, he became a sinner. His nature was changed from ‘good’ to ‘bad.’ Since we are his children, we inherit his sinful nature which is what I posted for you in Romans 5:12.

In this sense, we suffer for what Adam did; that is, he caused his descendants to have sinful natures and all of us suffer because of it. This is called original sin.

Agree with the first part. What we inherit is the consequences of it...death. The RCC definition only came about between 354-430 AD. The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally.

The bodies of Adam and Eve changed immediately from bodies that were not going to die, to bodies that are. Their bodies now obeyed a new law that rebells against the immortal state. Because if it is now a body that dies it's a body that needs to do the things that all the other animal bodies do to survive. Now it demands reproduction. It's not voluntary it's an involuntary urge that moves the body involuntarily. The body informed Adam and Eve of their fallen state. It's the body that obeys the laws of survival usurping the will and moving to the law of death causing Adam and Eve shame. A body that dies is a body that is obedient to the law of death which is a body that propagates original sin.