Mary

[MamaZ]

I call all who know Christ blessed

 

[Anglian]

I call all who know Christ blessed

On what Scriptural authority?

The angel says St. Mary will be called blessed by all generations. I missed the bit you practice

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Luk 11:28 But He said, No; rather, blessed are those hearing the Word of God, and keeping it.

 

[Anglian]

Indeed, but that does not mean that St. Mary is not to be called blessed by every generation.

peace,

Anglian

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Mary's only claim to fame is that she was Jesus's mother.

Yeah, and Jesus' only claim to fame is that He was God.

Mary has such a minor role -- Mother of God, Cause of Our Salvation, Mother of the Church, Reparatrix, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces, Queen of Angels, Queen of Heaven. Really, pretty obscure....

I stumbled across Mathew 12:50 today, and it seem to make Mary sound, not so special. In fact, Jesus seems to put Mary and his brothers on the same plain as everyone else who follows God. What are your thoughts?

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Nowhere does it say that everyone is equal. I ran across this false conception in another recent thread. Not everyone is equal before God. Some people are greater than others simply because they have been predestined as such -- "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated"; the Master gave one servant ten talents, another five and the third one. Why? The Inscrutable Mind and Will of God. Other people are greater than others because they work with the Graces and roles they are predestined to fulfill -- the servant with one talent would not have been lost if he had invested it instead of burying it in the ground.

So Mary was predestined to be the Mother of God and all of the rest, but she gained those titles because she had faith in God and accepted the path that God had established for her. We don't create our path in life but we have to walk it.

Similarly to the above and also used by some Protestants supposedly showing that Jesus slights His mother, according her no respect:

And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

St. Augustine comments that Mary is more blessed for having borne Christ in her heart than formed Him in her womb. Or as God the Holy Spirit says through the mouth of St. Elizabeth:

And blessed are you that have believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to you by the Lord.

What does St. Paul say?

Wherefore henceforth, we know no man according to the flesh. And if we have known Christ according to the flesh; but now we know him so no longer.

As Bp. Challoner (who revised the Douay-Rheims Version, which I use) comments:

That is, we consider not any man with regard to his nation, family, kindred, or other natural qualities or advantages; but only with relation to Christ, and according to the order of divine charity, in God, and for God. The apostle adds, that even with respect to Christ himself, he now no longer considers him according to the flesh, by taking a satisfaction in his being his countryman; his affection being now purified from all such earthly considerations.

The point is that we don't emphasize the physical aspect of Mary or even Jesus. As Christians, it is not terribly important that Jesus was a Jew who lived 2,000 years ago, who taught when He was 30-33 years old, etc (though, of course, it was necessary for Him to be a Jew in the line of King David). It is infinitely important that Jesus is the Son of God. Indeed, it was Jesus' brothers and sisters according to the flesh -- the Jews -- who betrayed Him and crucified Him and were cut off from the olive tree so that Jesus' brothers and sisters according to the spirit who love and accept Him could be grafted on (not that we should glory against them but rather that we should fear being cut off ourselves out of unbelief).

So the passage you quoted does not say that everyone who does the will of God is equal, but rather that the spiritual life is infinitely more important than the physical life. Jesus did not dishonor His mother, that would be a sin, which is impossible. Mary is blessed for having faith in God and going along with the whole plan, from the Annunciation to the years spent in Egypt and all the other hardships throughout her life, up to the point where she is kneeling before the Cross, offering her Son to God -- all of the swords that pierced her soul which she accepted with the one sacred word of fiat (fiat mihi secundum verbuum tuum -- "May it be done unto me according to thy word.") Which Christ gives us again to say in the Our Father -- fiat voluntas tua ("Thy will be done").

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Oopsie! You just opened a can of worms here. You should know that Catholics and Orthodox believe that Jesus didn't really have brothers. They believe that they are His cousins, which makes every other believer in Jesus His cousin. What I find very curious is the practice in Catholic and Orthodox churches of referring to people as Brother So-and-So or Sister So-and-So. If, in fact, they are really supposed to be called cousins (per their understanding of the passage in Matthew as well as four other passages in the gospels) then why don't they call them Cousin So-and-So?

What?

Two very different things we're talking about -- Jesus' (half) brothers and sisters according to the flesh or our brothers and sisters according to spirit.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Ok, you guys are swaying me I concede that she was the best woman to have ever lived.
So, what do we do in light of this information? I feel that any worship or praise of her or her virtues should instead be channeled towards worshiping God. In fact anything that subtracts from our efforts to serve and worship God needs to be eliminated. Sure, enough all generations call her blessed, and being chosen to birth the God of the universe is quite the blessing, but Mary's purpose was to bring us Jesus, and he is suposed to be the center of all of our attention.

Mary's purpose 2,000 years was to bring us Jesus. Mary's purpose today is to bring us Jesus. Mary's purpose until the end of the world will be to bring us Jesus.

Jesus is the center of Mary's attention. God the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Elizabeth praises Mary and Mary then magnifies that blessing and blesses God. When we sing of the glories that God bestowed upon Mary, Mary keeps nothing for herself but turns and magnifies that blessing and blesses the Lord infinitely more than we could ever do on our own. We praise and serve Mary in order to more perfectly praise and serve Jesus. There is no running tally in Heaven, Mary and Jesus aren't vying for most-praised, the roles are quite clear.

I quote from St. Louis Marie de Montfort's seminal "Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin":

If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.

Dear Jesus, do these people possess your spirit? Do they please you by acting in this way? Would it please you if we were to make no effort to give pleasure to your Mother because we are afraid of offending you? Does devotion to your holy Mother hinder devotion to you? Does Mary keep for herself any honour we pay her? Is she a rival of yours? Is she a stranger having no kinship with you? Does pleasing her imply displeasing you? Does the gift of oneself to her constitute a deprivation for you? Is love for her a lessening of our love for you?

Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary's altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her.
...
For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.

Ad Iesum per Mariam!
To Jesus through Mary!

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I call all who know Christ blessed

And who knows Christ better than Mary? Those in Christ are blessed indeed and Mary is the greatest of them all.

 

[bibleblevr]

So where are the verses that tell us that those in heaven can pray on our behalf?

If I was to pick some people from history to pray for me, Mary would be on the list along with the disciples, prophets and a multitude of other people. If I wanted all of their prayers, do I have to ask them by name or can I ask God to ask them? If I can ask God to ask them, then why don't I skip the middle man, and ask God myself? I plan to be praying "Your will be done" anyways, so whats the difference? Please explain how that whole thing works.

As you may have guessed, I don't know much about Catholicism, I have never really been exposed to it, and I don't even have many friends who are Catholic, so excuse my ignorance

 

[MamaZ]

It is not Mary that draws us to Christ. It is God who draws us.. It is not Mary who points to Christ but the Holy Spirit. There is no mediator between us and Jesus other than God the Spirit.

 

[Anglian]

It is not Mary that draws us to Christ. It is God who draws us.. It is not Mary who points to Christ but the Holy Spirit. There is no mediator between us and Jesus other than God the Spirit.

And you are speaking for Him in saying He could not use St. Mary to draw us closer to Him. You do seem to be limiting God's freedom of action somewhat. Still, if that is what the Spirit tells you ...

peace,

Anglian

 

[bbbbbbb]

What?

Two very different things we're talking about -- Jesus' (half) brothers and sisters according to the flesh or our brothers and sisters according to spirit.

I apologize for the confusion. There are two varying thoughts among the Catholics and Orthodox concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. As Thekla has pointed out, many, if not all, Orthodox, believe them to be cousins and not half-brothers and half-sisters whereas many Catholics, if not all, hold that they are half-brothers and half-sisters in the sense that Joseph had a marriage prior to that with Mary during which he fathered these individuals.

 

[Anglian]

I apologize for the confusion. There are two varying thoughts among the Catholics and Orthodox concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. As Thekla has pointed out, many, if not all, Orthodox, believe them to be cousins and not half-brothers and half-sisters whereas many Catholics, if not all, hold that they are half-brothers and half-sisters in the sense that Joseph had a marriage prior to that with Mary during which he fathered these individuals.

Indeed, and a helpful clarification. The fact is that we don't know which of the two is right, but we do know that if we accept the Creed and the conclusions of the Second Ecumenical Council of 431, that she was perpetually Virgin.

Of course, there have always been unorthodox views to the contrary, but the orthodox view is there in the Creeds and the Councils.


peace,

Anglian

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

So where are the verses that tell us that those in heaven can pray on our behalf?

This is a whole separate thread, and there have been many of those. In brief:

Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.

Now if these two men prayed fervently for the people of Israel from Hades, how much more do our brothers and sisters in Heaven pray for the Church and the salvation of the world?

If praying for people is a Christian virtue, how is it that those in Heaven abandon that virtue? Are they free in Heaven or bound and silenced? If they are bound and silenced, unable to pray to God, what kind of Heaven is that? If they are free, why would they not pray for us when that is what they spent their earthly lives doing? Is charity absent in Heaven? Do those in Heaven say, "I've got mine, let the world burn"? Or is their role to continue to pray to put everything under His Feet? That is, to secure the salvation of the world, the same as we pray now?

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

The prayers of God's holy ones in Heaven are more powerful than our corrupt and self-serving ones. A man has a secretary to prepare letters for him, so that they may be more effective than his original words. How much more effective if the one presenting the letter is a good friend of the one to whom it is sent? Did not Queen Esther plead for the life of the Jews before the king?

To say that those in Heaven are silenced and prevented from praying is illogical. It is also illogical to say that they could pray but choose not to because they no longer care for and love their fellow man since God resists the proud and charity overflows from God. If God so loved the world, why would God's friends not love the world or love it but be prevented from praying for it?

If I was to pick some people from history to pray for me, Mary would be on the list along with the disciples, prophets and a multitude of other people. If I wanted all of their prayers, do I have to ask them by name or can I ask God to ask them? If I can ask God to ask them, then why don't I skip the middle man, and ask God myself?

Why ever ask anyone to pray for you? Why pray for anyone else? Yet we are not only given a plethora of examples of intercessory prayer in Scripture, we are commanded to pray for one another. That is why we storm Heaven, and it works!

And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. So Eliphaz the Themanite, and Baldad the Suhite, and Sophar the Naamathite went, and did as the Lord had spoken to them, and the Lord accepted the face of Job. The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends.

I plan to be praying "Your will be done" anyways, so whats the difference? Please explain how that whole thing works.

The question of the efficacy of prayers of petition is a question that goes back to the Greek pagan philosophers. How can we influence the will of God through prayer if God is unchanging?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I apologize for the confusion. There are two varying thoughts among the Catholics and Orthodox concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. As Thekla has pointed out, many, if not all, Orthodox, believe them to be cousins and not half-brothers and half-sisters whereas many Catholics, if not all, hold that they are half-brothers and half-sisters in the sense that Joseph had a marriage prior to that with Mary during which he fathered these individuals.

Regardless, what does the particular relationship of Jesus to His relatives have to do with us as "brothers and sisters in Christ"? Your leap there was rather ridiculous and confusing.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

It is not Mary that draws us to Christ. It is God who draws us.. It is not Mary who points to Christ but the Holy Spirit. There is no mediator between us and Jesus other than God the Spirit.

Explain, with references.

Or, as Anglian suggested, is this another one of your "direct revelations" that supersedes Scripture and the Faith?

 

[MamaZ]

Explain, with references.

Or, as Anglian suggested, is this another one of your "direct revelations" that supersedes Scripture and the Faith?

It is a direct revelation in the scriptures. Here is the scripture that shows it is the Father that draws all men unto Christ. We do not see that it is through Mary one is pointed to Christ..
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down out of Heaven, not that I should do My will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father sending Me, that of all that He has given Me, I shall not lose any of it, but shall raise it up in the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of the One sending Me, that everyone seeing the Son and believing into Him should have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41 Then the Jews murmured about Him, because He said, I am the Bread coming down out of Heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, of whom we know the father and the mother? How does this One now say, I have come down out of Heaven?
Joh 6:43 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Do not murmur with one another.
Joh 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Joh 6:45 It has been written in the Prophets, They "shall" all "be taught of God." So then everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me; Isa. 54:13
Joh 6:46 not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One being from God, He has seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one believing into Me has everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am the Bread of life.

 

[Anglian]

It is a direct revelation in the scriptures. Here is the scripture that shows it is the Father that draws all men unto Christ. We do not see that it is through Mary one is pointed to Christ..

No one has claimed that anyone save Christ is the object of our worship. But the means by which we are drawn to Him are many, and one of them is through His mother.

Those who seek to limit the workings of the Holy Spirit to what happens between the covers of a book which was not even there when Marian veneration was first practised are welcome to a vain enterprise. The Spirit moves as He will, and for centuries has worked through the Blessed Theotokos. Those who have no experience of this method criticise that of which they know nothing, and make judgements which God alone can make.

peace,

Anglian

 

[katherine2001]

And you are speaking for Him in saying He could not use St. Mary to draw us closer to Him. You do seem to be limiting God's freedom of action somewhat. Still, if that is what the Spirit tells you ...

peace,

Anglian

You've noticed that too, Anglian? In my opinion, God can act through whatever or whomever He wants to work through, including bread and wine, the saints, their relics--whatever. Why should I limit Him to working through only things that I can understand or am willing to accept? Thank God, my God is much bigger than I am and I am not going to try and fit Him into a little box and tell Him He can only act within my understanding.

 

[Anglian]

You've noticed that too, Anglian? In my opinion, God can act through whatever or whomever He wants to work through, including bread and wine, the saints, their relics--whatever. Why should I limit Him to working through only things that I can understand or am willing to accept? Thank God, my God is much bigger than I am and I am not going to try and fit Him into a little box and tell Him He can only act within my understanding.

Indeed, Katherine. Those who have no direct experience of the way in which the Blessed Theotokos can help one's spiritual life insist on telling those of us who do that we are wrong because they have no such experience.

Still, since they seem to think that they can tell the Holy Spirit where He can and cannot go, I suppose there is no surprise that they can tell us what we can and cannot experience.

peace,

Anglian