Mary

[bibleblevr]

Mary's only claim to fame is that she was Jesus's mother. I stumbled across Mathew 12:50 today, and it seem to make Mary sound, not so special. In fact, Jesus seems to put Mary and his brothers on the same plain as everyone else who follows God. What are your thoughts?

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Mary's only claim to fame is that she was Jesus's mother. I stumbled across Mathew 12:50 today, and it seem to make Mary sound, not so special. In fact, Jesus seems to put Mary and his brothers on the same plain as everyone else who follows God. What are your thoughts?

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Oopsie! You just opened a can of worms here. You should know that Catholics and Orthodox believe that Jesus didn't really have brothers. They believe that they are His cousins, which makes every other believer in Jesus His cousin. What I find very curious is the practice in Catholic and Orthodox churches of referring to people as Brother So-and-So or Sister So-and-So. If, in fact, they are really supposed to be called cousins (per their understanding of the passage in Matthew as well as four other passages in the gospels) then why don't they call them Cousin So-and-So?

 

[Anglian]

Her 'only claim'? Do you know many other women who bore Christ in their womb then? Many others who nurtured Him? Many others who stood by and offered Him comfort whilst He suffered on the Cross for our sins?

Perhaps you have a very high standard of what warrants notice?

peace,

Anglian

 

[Thekla]

Oopsie! You just opened a can of worms here. You should know that Catholics and Orthodox believe that Jesus didn't really have brothers. They believe that they are His cousins, which makes every other believer in Jesus His cousin. What I find very curious is the practice in Catholic and Orthodox churches of referring to people as Brother So-and-So or Sister So-and-So. If, in fact, they are really supposed to be called cousins (per their understanding of the passage in Matthew as well as four other passages in the gospels) then why don't they call them Cousin So-and-So?

Both 'cousin' and brother are included in the definition of adelphos.

 

[boswd]

Her 'only claim'? Do you know many other women who bore Christ in their womb then? Many others who nurtured Him? Many others who stood by and offered Him comfort whilst He suffered on the Cross for our sins?

Perhaps you have a very high standard of what warrants notice?

peace,

Anglian

LOL I got a kick out that too.

Oye what Americanized Christianity has done to Mary. Egaads even the most radical reformers held Mary in a much higher esteem.

 

[bibleblevr]

Ok, lets say those other guys where cousins, the point is, Jesus says,

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Agreed, only Mary nurtured and raised Jesus, that was defiantly quite the honor for her, but Jesus says that family status (including mother status) is archived by doing the will of the father. Mary did the will of the father but caring for, and being a mother to Jesus. That was the will of the father for her life. If a different woman obeys the will of the father to an equal extant as Mary has, then why aren't the two women on par? Jesus would call the second woman "mother" according to Mathew 12:50.

 

[bibleblevr]

Both 'cousin' and brother are included in the definition of adelphos.

What about sister? just wondering if the word "adelphos" switches to the feminine form and represents sisters and female cousins, or if the word for for sister is different form the word for a girl cousin.

 

[Anglian]

They are not on a par for the same reason as the woman who gives you birth and a good friend are not on a par. You have one mother. Christ's mother took a great risk in obeying God's will.

I don't know how much you know about Middle Eastern societies, but now, as then, a betrothed girl who gets pregnant by any man save her betrothed can be cast out from the community. We know that even St. Joseph was so minded, although he would have done it, we are told, kindly. St. Mary assumed that risk because she obeyed God.

How many of us take that sort of risk?

For that alone, she deserves honour from us. Still, I guess if you don't want to honour His mother, He'll understand. He knows we are fallible sinners.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Thekla]

What about sister? just wondering if the word "adelphos" switches to the feminine form and represents sisters and female cousins, or if the word for for sister is different form the word for a girl cousin.

Yes, there is a feminine form - adelphi.
Suyyenis is more the meaning of 'relative'.
Adelphos typically refers to a common male progenitor or head of household -- the common male may be a father, grandfather, tribal head, etc. All of the meanings of adelphos/adelphi derive from this common male (head of household, biological male or metaphoric common male ancestor, as in God the Father).

 

[seashale76]

Mary's only claim to fame is that she was Jesus's mother. I stumbled across Mathew 12:50 today, and it seem to make Mary sound, not so special. In fact, Jesus seems to put Mary and his brothers on the same plain as everyone else who follows God. What are your thoughts?

I think you'll find other scriptures that disagree with your assessment.

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the Mother of God in scripture, and if the Theotokos is not so special why is she quoted in scripture as saying that all generations shall call her blessed? That sounds a lot more special than you're willing concede. I wonder why that is?


Luke 1
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
51He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
__________________

 

[Faulty]

They are not on a par for the same reason as the woman who gives you birth and a good friend are not on a par. You have one mother. Christ's mother took a great risk in obeying God's will.

I don't know how much you know about Middle Eastern societies, but now, as then, a betrothed girl who gets pregnant by any man save her betrothed can be cast out from the community. We know that even St. Joseph was so minded, although he would have done it, we are told, kindly. St. Mary assumed that risk because she obeyed God.

How many of us take that sort of risk?

For that alone, she deserves honour from us. Still, I guess if you don't want to honour His mother, He'll understand. He knows we are fallible sinners.

peace,

Anglian

Both NT and OT believers have been risking their families their reputations, their possessions and even their lives collectively for thousands of years now. Mary willingly faced a great challenge, yes, but not greater than some others.

She knew she would not be put to death, for the angel told her she would have a son. Dead women don't have sons. She had that assurance that the everyday believer does not have living in certain parts of the world today.

She knew if she needed a family, Elizabeth would take her and the child in. Today, people are literally cast away with no one else to turn to. Her experience in regards to potential persecution is not unigue to her alone and actually fails to compare to the persecution others face.

 

[MamaZ]

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the Mother of Her Lord. As He is my Lord and Marys Lord.

 

[Anglian]

Both NT and OT believers have been risking their families their reputations, their possessions and even their lives collectively for thousands of years now. Mary willingly faced a great challenge, yes, but not greater than some others.

She knew she would not be put to death, for the angel told her she would have a son. Dead women don't have sons. She had that assurance that the everyday believer does not have living in certain parts of the world today.

She knew if she needed a family, Elizabeth would take her and the child in. Today, people are literally cast away with no one else to turn to. Her experience in regards to potential persecution is not unigue to her alone and actually fails to compare to the persecution others face.

My own, Coptic Church, is persecuted to this day, and we pay great honour to one who suffered so much for us. I had not realised American Christians were so persecuted that they could regard her sufferings as minor. Who is it who burns your churches and kills your priests?

peace,

Anglian

 

[Anglian]

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the Mother of Her Lord. As He is my Lord and Marys Lord.

Indeed. No one has said otherwise.

The angel said all generations would call her blessed. We do as the Bible says we would. Do you follow the Bible here?

peace,

Anglian

 

[bibleblevr]

Ok, you guys are swaying me I concede that she was the best woman to have ever lived.
So, what do we do in light of this information? I feel that any worship or praise of her or her virtues should instead be channeled towards worshiping God. In fact anything that subtracts from our efforts to serve and worship God needs to be eliminated. Sure, enough all generations call her blessed, and being chosen to birth the God of the universe is quite the blessing, but Mary's purpose was to bring us Jesus, and he is suposed to be the center of all of our attention.

 

[Anglian]

Ok, you guys are swaying me I concede that she was the best woman to have ever lived.

Glad that we have helped here.

So, what do we do in light of this information? I feel that any worship or praise of her or her virtues should instead be channeled towards worshiping God.

And we all agree. When we pray it is intercessory prayer. That is like you saying to me 'please pray for me'. I do that for my friends and for those who ask. I ask the Blessed Virgin to pray for me. We are all praying to God. We do not pray to her, but to God through her. We also pray to God directly. But why not get all your friends to pray for you? I am a great sinner, and I need all the prayers anyone is kind enough to offer to God on my behalf.

In fact anything that subtracts from our efforts to serve and worship God needs to be eliminated. Sure, enough all generations call her blessed, and being chosen to birth the God of the universe is quite the blessing, but Mary's purpose was to bring us Jesus, and he is suposed to be the center of all of our attention.

If it distracted from the worship due to God, we'd all be with you. It is in addition to that. If you look at the most used Marian prayer you'll see it, I hope:

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee,
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death.

We are asking this holy, humble and wonderful mother to pray for us sinners.
I also ask my patron saint, St. Cyril, and my guardian angel to pray for me. I don't think either of them are God, or worship them. But when I pray to God, it is wonderful to feel surrounded by a cloud of witnesses all praying to Him. Even when I am at home praying, I am not alone.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Dorothea]

On a different thread I posted info from this link:

Perpetual Virginity of Mary


WHAT SOME PROTESTANTS THINK ON THIS…

I will first turn to the "Fathers of the Reformation" to speak for Orthodoxy in defending the teaching that Mary was "Ever Virgin". First I will let Ulrich Zwingli (leader of the Swiss Reformation, divided from Lutheran Reformers because he denied Christ's real presence in any form in the Eucharist) speak to this:

"She (Mary) had to be a virgin and perpetually a virgin..." (Reformed Dogmatics, p. 422, by H. Heppe).

And in a prayer he calls her:

"the pure and ever virgin..." (Prayers of the Eucharist, p. 184, by Jasper & Cuming).

Regarding the verse that "Joseph kept Mary a virgin until" [Matthew 1:25], John Calvin maintains in his commentary:

"Those words of Scripture do not mean that after His birth they cohabitated as man and wife..." (John Calvin NT Commentaries Vol. 3, p. 71).

And on the subject of Jesus' brethren he said:

"In the Hebrew manner relatives of any sort are called 'brethren'...It is therefore very ignorant to imagine that Mary had many sons because there are several mentions of Christ's brethren" (John Calvin NT Commentaries Vol. 3, p. 71).

This has always been the undisputed theology regarding Mary. From the Apostles on down nobody disputed the perpetual virginity of Mary for nearly 1600 years. This teaching is even considered to be prefigured in the Old Testament as reflected in the hymnology of the Orthodox Church:

"The shadow of the law passed when grace came, as the bush burnt, yet was not consumed, so the virgin gave birth yet remained a virgin, the Sun of Righteousness has risen instead of a pillar of flame, instead of Moses, there is Christ, the Saviour of our Souls" (Theotokion, tone 1).

THE ORTHODOX VIEWPOINT: BIBLICAL ANALYSIS


The word "brother" has a broader meaning in the Bible. It is not only used to mean the actual brother, but also the cousin or even the nephew.

For instance, Lot is called "Abraham's brother" whereas in reality he is his nephew (Gen. 14:14). Jacob is called a brother of Lavan whereas in reality Lavan is his uncle i.e. Jacob is his nephew (Gen 27:43. 29:15).

Kis's sons are called brothers, whereas in reality they are cousins of Eleazar's daughters (1 Paralip. /1 Chron. 23:21-22). 2 /4 Kings 10:13-14 talks about 42 brothers of Ochozius. Clearly, it must talk about people related to him but in a more general sense of the word.

The reason for this "brother" word problem is that neither the Jewish nor the Aramaic tongues have a special word in order to express the notion of a "cousin". When they wanted to mention the actual cousin as such they would do so periphrastically i.e. "son of the [father's] uncle" or "son of the brother of the mother". For this reason the actual cousin is expressed by the word "brother" when mentioned at one word. Thus, from the other verses will we only be able to (hopefully) understand if it really means “brother” or some other form of relation.

OK, so how can we be sure though that when the NT talks about "brothers of Jesus", it uses the word "brother" with a broad meaning and not the narrow one?

There are many reasons which force us to adopt the general meaning. Here are a few typical ones:

1. - The angel, when he evangelised the Theotokos (the Mother of God), said: "Here, you will conceive in your womb and bear" (συλλήψει εν γαστρί και τέξ&#951. He speaks to her about conceiving and giving birth (τέξη - to give birth). Both are in the future structure. In the future also belonged her marriage with Joseph. She replied: "how come this, for I know no man?" (Luke 1:34). If the Virgin Theotokos was planning to come in matrimonial relations with Joseph, to have children, how come she places this question "Man I know not"? Isn't it more reasonable to accept that she had decided to stay a virgin after her betrothal by living under the protection of a male and not aim to become truly married, since had she intended to get married to Joseph in the first place she would not have said "man I know not"?

Of course, the Protestant will hasten to add here that he or she will not accept the word "ιδού" (= here) in "Here, you will conceive ..." as referring to the future but to the immediate present. For example, the Holy Writ says "ιδού άγγελος Κυρίου εφάνη" (Mt. 2:13), "ιδού μάγοι από Ανατολών παραγίνονται" (2:1) etc.

The word "ιδού" in the Holy Writ does not have the meaning of taking place in the immediate present but it refers to something that will take place unexpectedly. We bring a few examples: "Ιδού η Παρθένος έξει εν γαστρί" (Is. 7:14), "Ιδού ούτος κείται εις πτώσιν και ανάστασιν" (Lk. 2:34), "Ιδού έρχομαι ως κλέπτης" (Revel. 16:14). All of the above verses refer to future and unexpected events.

2. - When Jesus was 12 years old, it is evident that the holy family consisted of three persons only: His mother, Joseph, and Himself. Nowhere are any other brothers of His present (Lk. 2:41) until that age and public appearance of the Lord. Therefore, if other brothers of Jesus were born they must have been born after Jesus' 12th year of age.

But after His 12th birthday, nowhere is Joseph seen any more. Thus Joseph had probably died; the Theotokos seems to be on her own.

But even if we suppose that the so-called "brothers" had been born after the 12th birthday of Jesus, we will have to face the following logical difficulties: These brothers of Jesus were (at least) four (Matt. 12:46. Mark 6:3). The eldest one of these would be younger than Jesus by at least 12 years, whereas the youngest one would have to be younger than Jesus by at least 20 years for the following reason: If we presume that every 2 years one of these brothers would be born, since we have 4 brothers, these would have been born within a period of 8 years. Thus we have 12 + 8 = 20. Therefore when Jesus was 30 years old, the other "brothers" would be: the youngest 30 - 20 = 10 and the eldest would be 30 - 12 = 18. The behaviour, however, of these who behave in everything to Jesus like his guardians (c.f. John 7:3 and Mark 3:21) contradicts the fact that they would be younger than Jesus, who was the firstborn. Why?

Because the Holy Bible says that the eldest brothers, especially the firstborn, preside over the younger ones.

In other words, according to the verses from Genesis 27:29-40 "become master of your brother" and "supervise your brother" that Isaac said to Jacob when receiving Esau's birthrights (πρωτοτόκι&#945, similarly Jesus must command his brothers and not be commanded by them, according to the customs. On the other hand, if we assume that the brothers were older than Jesus, this contradicts the fact that He is called the "firstborn" child (Matt. 1:25. Luke 2:7) [which means the first child that opens his mother's womb, not necessarily having other children following; this is plain Greek for the word "πρωτότοκος"; for more see below at (*)].

Therefore the brothers of Jesus were neither younger nor older than Him, impossible; therefore not real brothers. They were probably older in age and certainly relatives of His in the broader sense of the word (either children of Joseph's with another woman, or cousins of Jesus).

3. - In the gospels these brothers are mentioned as brothers of Jesus but not as sons of the Theotokos, as is said specifically regarding Jesus (Mark 6:3). Other than that, the gospels correctly call the Theotokos as woman of Joseph's before Christ is born: "do not be afraid to receive Mariam, your woman" (Matt. 1:20), but not after Jesus' birth. The angel in other words tells Joseph: "rise and take the child and his mother" (Matt. 2:13-21). He doesn't say "rise and take your child and your wife". In other words, if after Jesus' birth the Theotokos had truly taken Joseph as her husband (in other words, had had matrimonial relations with him after a wedding that might have taken place according to the Protestant interpretation, but which is not in fact mentioned in the Bible as ever having taken place, as we only have the information that they betrothed) the angel would have said to him: "take your child and your wife". (Further down we will examine more closely the circumstances surrounding the event with the angel, and see exactly why he calls Mariam as Joseph's "woman" in verse 20).

4. - Why would the Lord, during His Crucifixion, give His mother to be looked after by John (John 19:26-27), since she had other children as well (we 're talking at least four male children)? Clearly Christ would not suggest something like that, contrary to the time's laws! The custom of the time was that if the eldest son died, the other children (male) would look after their mother; and it would never be allowed for the mother to be taken care of by another person altogether without the society commenting harshly on such an event!

5. - The Holy Bible does not only speak about brothers of Jesus, but also about sisters of His, for it says: "all His sisters" (Matt. 12:46. Mark 6:3). Therefore we have a family with (at least) 9 members: 6 brothers and sisters of Jesus', 7th member being Jesus Himself, and His two parents. How come, therefore, the Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos came about and was accepted so easily from the times of the Apostolic Fathers - bar a few exceptions, the most important one of which we will discuss below, and which not only does not disprove this point but re-iterates its validity - and all the way not only to the 4th century AD but to 1600 A.D? One would have expected much more of a commotion! Think about it! A 9-member family and the Virgin being called Ever-Virgin? That would not be an easy issue to settle or believe! We should have expected to see a big wave of protests, even riots! But if people knew she only had Jesus as a child, the issue would be much simpler to settle; as it clearly was. And this contradicts and disproves the fact that Mary had other children apart from Jesus.

6. - The Holy Bible considers virgin life superior to married life, because "the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband" (2 Corinth. 7:34), and "both he that giveth his virgin in marriage, doth well; and he that giveth her not, doth better "(v. 38), and Apostle Paul also suggests celibate life: "But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I" (7:8), in particular celibate. (It is also interesting to note that, through History, those who opposed the Ever-Virginity were people who did not like celibacy, because it gnawed on their conscience.)

 

[katherine2001]

Elizabeth refers to Mary as the Mother of Her Lord. As He is my Lord and Marys Lord.

But Elizabeth refers to Mary as the Mother of her Lord. That is a unique role, as he only has one mother. Yes, Christ is Mary's Lord, but she has the unque role of being His mother. Nobody else can claim that role. And yes, He may reside in us, but we are not His mother--he only has one biological mother, and that is Mary (she was not just a vessel that provided nothing to Her son).

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus tells us that all who do the will of the Father are His mother brother and sisters.

 

[Anglian]

Indeed.

The angel says all generations will call Mary blessed. If you are following Scripture, you will do likewise.

peace,

Anglian