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Mary without original sin?

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thereselittleflower

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mawuvi said:
Oh my how could you put yourself out on a limb like this knowing there are some very smart and knowledgeable Christians on this side of the board. Care to share with us how Jesus other brothers came about?
I don't think I have gone out on a limb at all. Jesus did not have any other brothers or sisters by Mary. There is the belief that Jesus might have had step brothers by an earlier marriage on Joseph's side. There is also the belief that all brothers referred to in the New Testament are extended family.

The fact is, the Early Church Fathers are nearly unanimous on this fact . .that Mary did not have any other children and Mary remained a perpetual virgin.

This has been debated at length many times in the CO section of CF . . so no, I am not going out on a limb.

The fact is, the VAST majority of Christians in the world are Catholic and Orthodox . . Catholics alone account for about 1/6th of this world's population. And the Catholic and Orthodox have always held that Mary was Ever-Virgin.

The fact is, a minority of those who call themselves by the name of Christ believe that Mary was not ever virgin. In the US, it is a much bigger deal than anywhere else because of the unbalanced distribution of Catholic/Orthodox to Protestant groups compared to the rest of the world. . .

And we can't even include all protestant groups in with Protestants on this matter for some groups do hold that Mary was ever virign.


I am sure there are some smart and knowledgeable Christians on this side of the boards . . . does that exclude Catholics?



Peace in Him!
 
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mawuvi

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thereselittleflower said:
I don't think I have gone out on a limb at all. Jesus did not have any other brothers or sisters by Mary. There is the belief that Jesus might have had step brothers by an earlier marriage on Joseph's side. There is also the belief that all brothers referred to in the New Testament are extended family.

The fact is, the Early Church Fathers are nearly unanimous on this fact . .that Mary did not have any other children and Mary remained a perpetual virgin.

This has been debated at length many times in the CO section of CF . . so no, I am not going out on a limb.

Have you got any scriptural backing for this beliefs?

The fact is, the VAST majority of Christians in the world are Catholic and Orthodox . . Catholics alone account for about 1/6th of this world's population. And the Catholic and Orthodox have always held that Mary was Ever-Virgin.
Are you aware of Jesus' words at Matthew 7: 13 - 14. If you are I hope you understand it, many are called but few are chosen. Those that make it to the kingdom of God are not the masses and Jesus made that very clear
 
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Amatsyahu

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Matthew 1:25 seems pretty clear that Joseph didnt have sex with Mary till after she gave birth to Jesus. I also take notice that it is in the past tense which would tell us that it did happen. For example, if I said "John didnt wash his car till the rain stopped", then it is obvious that the act of washing did happen once the rain stopped.
 
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Bugmotel

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Both direct and circumstantial evidence in God’s Word – the Bible – clearly disproves the Roman Catholic Church claim that Mary, the mother of Jesus, remained a virgin, not only prior to, but during and after our Lord’s miraculous birth. It was this “perpetual virginity” doctrine and several others that forced the infamous 16th century Council of Trent to declare “Sacred Tradition” equal in every way to the divine Scriptures, and to arrogate to itself alone the right to interpret both Scripture and so-called “Sacred Tradition.” As we review the Scriptural evidence applicable to this false doctrine, it will become crystal clear why the Vatican insists that its members abide by Rome’s determination of what certain controversial Scriptures actually mean.

Our first inkling that the lifetime virginity doctrine is only a myth is found in the first chapter of Matthew’s Gospel. In verse 18 and following, God’s Word tells us that Mary was espoused (engaged) to Joseph, but that, “before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.” In the original Greek, the phrase “came together” is contained in the word, sunerchomai, {soon-er'-khom-ahee} whose meaning to the Jews of that era (Matthew was a Jew) meant conjugal cohabitation. A modern paraphrase of the Bible’s statement would go something like this: “Mary was found to be pregnant….before they consummated their marriage through normal sexual intercourse.”

Jewish marriages in the time of Christ consisted of a period of betrothal that preceded by several months the actual “coming together” in sexual union. Espousal, or betrothal, however, confirmed the marriage as a valid contract, so, for Joseph to have “put away secretly” his espoused bride, he would have had to obtain a legal writ of divorcement. While he pondered the advisability of such an action, he was informed by an angel in a dream that Mary was not guilty of adultery; that the Holy Ghost was the child’s sire, and to have no fear of proceeding with the contracted marriage. (Matt 1:20, 21) There is not even the slightest hint in the angel’s words that a marital union with Mary was to be free of the normal physical privileges. Thus reassured, Joseph, “being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” (Mat 1:24, 25)

Two phrases in those Scripture verses, when added to the phrase, “before they came together,” create a very rocky road to lifetime virginity for Roman Catholic apologists. The phrase “knew her not till” is translated from the Greek words, 1) ginosko{ghin-oce'-ko}, 2) ouk {ook}, and 3) heos {heh'-oce}. Ginosko, here translated “knew,” is a “Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman.” (Strong’s Lexicon #1097) The word ouk, here translated “not,” is clearly a negative denoting the act had not taken place. But heos, here translated “till,” is confirmation that the act did, in fact, take place after the child was delivered. To obviate in advance claims that the word “till” does not confirm that Mary and Joseph engaged in normal marital relations following Christ’s birth, the child Jesus is referred to in God’s Word as, “her firstborn son:” (Matt 1:25)

Roman Catholic apologists proclaim quite falsely that the word “firstborn” applies to an only child as well as to the first of multiple children. But a check of how the Greek word, prototokos {pro-tot-ok'-os} is used in the New Testament shows that claim to be quite without biblical support. The word appears nine times in the New Testament, and with one possible – but far from certain – exception, it always means the first of more than one. Six of the times it appears it is in reference to Jesus as either the firstborn from the dead, the firstborn of mankind, or the firstborn of man who would come to believe in God through him. Bible references are: Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15 and 1:18; Hebrews 1:6 and 12:23; and Revelation 1:5.

The one time it could possibly mean an only child is found in Hebrews 11:28. This particular verse is among several recounting the faith Moses exhibited as he led the children of Israel out of Egyptian captivity. “Through faith he (Moses) kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.” Reference here is made to the final plague visited upon Pharaoh and the Egyptians – the death of every firstborn of man and beast not covered by the blood of the Passover sacrifice. Roman Catholic apologists speculate that some Egyptian families had but a single child, and therefore the word firstborn can apply to an only child, in this case, Jesus. But this is both an unprovable presumption, and not very likely, because large families were an economic necessity, a hedge against starvation and aggression.

The other two times prototokos appears in the New Testament are in Matthew 1:25, (previously cited) and Luke 2:7, which reads as follows: “And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.” Twice, then, the inspired writers referred to our Lord as Mary’s firstborn son. But when Christ’s relationship to the Father is studied, we find Jesus the man described as God’s “…only begotten Son.” For examples, see John 1:14, 1:18, 3:18; Hebrews 11:17; 1st John 4:9. The author of God’s Word – the Holy Ghost – has made it absolutely clear that the man Christ Jesus was the only human offspring of the Father. With this in mind, one questions why that same Holy Ghost - if Jesus really was an only child - did not inspire Matthew and Luke to describe Mary’s delivery the same way. All speculation would have been obviated had they written: “And she brought forth her only son, etc.”

To make the road even more difficult for Roman Catholic apologists, Scripture contains a parallel situation in which the birth of a genuine only child is reported. Recall if you will that Mary’s cousin, Elisabeth, and her cousin’s husband, Zacharias, not only were childless, but actually were past the time of life when they could expect to be blessed with offspring. The Bible tells it like this: “And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.” (Luke 1:7) Their advanced years notwithstanding, Elisabeth and Zacharias were blessed by the Lord with the miracle of John the Baptist. Gabriel brought the good news to Zacharias as he performed his priestly duty in the Temple. “…the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.” (Luke 1:13) It is the following Scripture, the inspired writer’s description of John’s birth, that is especially worthy of note. “Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.” (Luke 1:57)

John the Baptist was the only son of Elisabeth and Zacharias. And so, the inspired writer correctly relates that Elisabeth brought forth – not a firstborn son to be followed by other sons – she simply brought forth…a…son. Since both the inspired writers say that Jesus was Mary’s firstborn son, we can be sure – without going one bit further into the matter – that at least one other son followed. In fact though, if the divine Word of God is to be believed, four other sons followed, and at least two daughters.

The following is from the Gospel of Matthew, an Apostle who knew Jesus and His family background intimately, even without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: “Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas. And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? (Matt 13:55, 56) These comments were made by people who knew Joseph and Mary and their family, for the Scripture tells us in the preceding verse: “And when he (Jesus) was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? (Matt 13:54) It bears repeating that these comments were made by people who most certainly knew the difference between blood brothers and sisters and mere cousins or kinfolk. We find a second report of this incident in the Gospel of Mark.

“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.” (Mark 6:3) As additional assurance that those who were making these comments were very well acquainted with our Lord’s earthly family, we read: “But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.” (Mark 6:4, 5)

In Greek, the language of the New Testament, the word for brother/ brethren is adelphos {ad-el-***'}; for sisters, it’s adelphe {ad-el-fay'}. The word for cousin/kinfolk is suggenes {soong-ghen-ace'}. To think or believe that the inspired writers of Scripture were unfamiliar with these terms and therefore subject to misusing them, is to question the very integrity of the Holy Spirit who directed their efforts. And that is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church does in the following entry from the 1994 Catechism.

Against this doctrine (Mary’s lifetime virginity) the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression. (¶500, Page 126, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994)

What the Roman Catholic Church has “always understood,” and what the Scriptures clearly say are as far apart in this case as Rome is from the South Pole. When the word adelphos is used in the Gospels in reference to a specific name or names, it always means blood brother(s). There are no exceptions. That is how we know that Simon Peter was Andrew’s brother; (Matt 4:18) that John was the brother of James; (Matt 4:21) that Herod had a brother, Philip; (Matt 14:3) that Judas (not Iscariot) was the brother of another James; (Luke 6:16) that Lazarus was the brother of Mary and Martha; (John 11:2) that Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters. (Matt 13:55; Mark 6:3) For the Vatican to suggest that two of Christ’s named brothers were the sons of another Mary without accounting for the other two named sons is absurd. To imply that the Holy Spirit didn’t “get it right” is blasphemy, and Jesus had some choice words regarding those who blaspheme His Holy Spirit. (Cf. Matthew 12:32; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10)

The Word of God could not have made it any clearer that Mary had four sons besides Jesus, and that Jesus had both brothers and sisters. Following is a list of New Testament verses that simply cannot be misconstrued no matter how loudly the Roman Catholic apologists protest.

Matthew 12:46-49; Matthew 13:55; Mark 3:31-34; Mark 6:3
Luke 8:19-21; John 2:12; John 7:3-10; Acts 1:14; 1Corinthians 9:5; Galatians 1:19; Jude 1:1 (probable).

In the Galatians reference cited above, Paul identifies James as the Lord’s adelphos, (brother) not as His suggenes, (cousin or kinfolk). It is out of the question to think or believe that Paul didn’t know the difference between a brother and a cousin. Moreover, the great historians of the patristic age – Josephus of Judaism, and Eusebius of Christianity – made reference to brothers of the Lord in their respective histories.

In his Antiquities XX, 200, Josephus reported that, “James, the brother of Jesus called the Christ” had been put to death. And Eusebius, in his Book 2, Chapter 1:3, refers to “James the Lord’s brother.” Then, in Book 3, Chapter 20:1, this appears: “Jude…the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.” His meaning could not be clearer. The Jude he refers to was a blood brother of Jesus, not a brother by faith.

But the doctrine of Mary’s lifetime virginity, the denial that she and Joseph enjoyed a normal marriage as commanded by God in 1st Corinthians 7:4, 5, actually was obviated about 800 years before the births of Mary, Joseph or Jesus. In Psalm 69 is contained the following clearly Messianic prophecy: “I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.” (Psa 69:8, 9)

How do we know that these verses are a Messianic prophecy? Because we read in the Gospel of John: “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.” (John 2:15-17)

And in Romans, we read: “For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.” (Romans 15:3)
 
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Bulldog

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Toms777 said:
First, you are right that there is no reason that Mary need be sinless and indeed Mary said herself that she needed a Saviour. One who is sinless does not need a Saviour.

I am not Catholic, and do not believe the Marian dogmas, but I would like to clear up a misconception.

According to Catholic theology, Mary was saved by being born without sin.

An illustration would be a man cathing a woman before she falls in a well. The man would still be a Saviour, you see?
 
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rebazar

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Mary and Joseph had 9 children and these are their names and birthdays:

JESUS-AUG/21/7 B.C.

JAMES-APR/2/3 B.C.

MIRIAM-JULY/11/2 B.C.

JOSEPH-MAR/16/ 1 A.D.

SIMON-APR/14/ 2 A.D.

MARTHA-SEP/13/ 3 A.D.

JUDE-JUNE /24/ 5 A.D.

AMOS-JAN /9/ 7 A.D.

RUTH-APR/17/ 9 A.D.

On SEP/25/ 8 A.D. Joseph, the father, dies in a construction accident. Jesus, 14 at the time of his father's death, becomes the head of the household and is responible for the welfare of the whole family.

[ from The Urantia Book ]



Cheers
 
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Serapha

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ukok said:

Yes the Holy Father is truly a descendent of Peter, here is a list of all the Popes that the Apostolic Leadership was passed onto ; see further post's, i can't include such a long list with this one :)





God Bless

Hi there!

:wave:

Would you mind posting the earliest known listing of popes, or would that be the earliest listing of people as bishop of Rome?

Psssttt.... I'm thinking I can find an earlier record than you can.





~serapha~
 
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Frankie

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rebazar said:
Mary and Joseph had 9 children and these are their names and birthdays:

JESUS-AUG/21/7 B.C.

JAMES-APR/2/3 B.C.

MIRIAM-JULY/11/2 B.C.

JOSEPH-MAR/16/ 1 A.D.

SIMON-APR/14/ 2 A.D.

MARTHA-SEP/13/ 3 A.D.

JUDE-JUNE /24/ 5 A.D.

AMOS-JAN /9/ 7 A.D.

RUTH-APR/17/ 9 A.D.

On SEP/25/ 8 A.D. Joseph, the father, dies in a construction accident. Jesus, 14 at the time of his father's death, becomes the head of the household and is responible for the welfare of the whole family.

[ from The Urantia Book ]


Cheers
I did a web search on this "Urantia Book" and stuff in that book is so "new-age", "old-age" that it reeks of non-Christianity.

some writings from the Urantia book.....
P3:5, 0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect -- complete -- as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.


P3:15, 0:2.2 Cosmic consciousness implies the recognition of a First Cause, the one and only uncaused reality. God, the Universal Father, functions on three Deity-personality levels of subinfinite value and relative divinity expression:

  1. Prepersonal -- as in the ministry of the Father fragments, such as the Thought Adjusters.
  2. Personal -- as in the evolutionary experience of created and procreated beings.
  3. Superpersonal -- as in the eventuated existences of certain absonite and associated beings.
P4:5, 0:2.8 The word GOD is used, in these papers, with the following meanings:
[size=-1]
P4:6, 0:2.9[/size] 1. God the Father -- Creator, Controller, and Upholder. The Universal Father, the First Person of Deity.
[size=-1]
P4:7, 0:2.10[/size] 2. God the Son -- Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity.
[size=-1]
P4:8, 0:2.11[/size] 3. God the Spirit -- Conjoint Actor, Universal Integrator, and Mind Bestower. The Infinite Spirit, the Third Person of Deity.
[size=-1]
P4:9, 0:2.12[/size] 4. God the Supreme -- the actualizing or evolving God of time and space. Personal Deity associatively realizing the time-space experiential achievement of creature-Creator identity. The Supreme Being is personally experiencing the achievement of Deity unity as the evolving and experiential God of the evolutionary creatures of time and space.
[size=-1]
P4:10, 0:2.13[/size] 5. God the Sevenfold -- Deity personality anywhere actually functioning in time and space. The personal Paradise Deities and their creative associates functioning in and beyond the borders of the central universe and power-personalizing as the Supreme Being on the first creature level of unifying Deity revelation in time and space. This level, the grand universe, is the sphere of the time-space descension of Paradise personalities in reciprocal association with the time-space ascension of evolutionary creatures.
[size=-1]
P4:11, 0:2.14[/size] 6. God the Ultimate -- the eventuating God of supertime and transcended space. The second experiential level of unifying Deity manifestation. God the Ultimate implies the attained realization of the synthesized absonite-superpersonal, time-space-transcended, and eventuated-experiential values, co-ordinated on final creative levels of Deity reality.
[size=-1]
P4:12, 0:2.15[/size] 7. God the Absolute -- the experientializing God of transcended superpersonal values and divinity meanings, now existential as the Deity Absolute. This is the third level of unifying Deity expression and expansion. On this supercreative level, Deity experiences exhaustion of personalizable potential, encounters completion of divinity, and undergoes depletion of capacity for self-revelation to successive and progressive levels of other-personalization. Deity now encounters, impinges upon, and experiences identity with, the Unqualified Absolute.

quotes above are from theurantiabook.org

I will stick with the Bible, thank you.


Frankie[size=-1]

[/size]

 
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Bulldog

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thereselittleflower said:
Yes, but I am not about to debate our doctrine here in the Unorthodox forum.

If you would like this answered more in depth, please ask us in OBOB. :)


Thanks!


Peace in Him!

therese, we cannot debate in OBOB. Currently, this would be the best place to bring up the scriptures here.

And if you don;t what to debatw here because it is the Unorthodox foru, then just view it from the poin that there are those arguing for Unorthodoxy. ;)
 
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Serapha

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Forgot my

Hi there!

:wave:


Just a quick post to add to the discussion on the perpetual virginity of Mary, the mother of Jesus. If Mary did not perform the duties of "wife" to Joseph, when she lead a life in front of the world that was a lie.... Jewish marriage laws required that the marriage be consumated to be valid. The Bible speaks of Mary as the wife of Joseph.... so therefore, either she was his covenant wife, or the Bible contains error on her being his wife.

Jesus spoke of marriage, and he states that those who are married shall be one flesh... there is no misunderstanding in Jesus's defining marriage.

Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?


http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=mt&chapter=19&verse=5

and they twain shall be one flesh;
the word "twain" is: not in the Hebrew text in Genesis, but in the Septuagint version compiled by Jews, in the Samaritan Pentateuch, and version, and in the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel, who renders, it as here, (dx arvybl Nwhywwrt) (Nwhyw) , "and they two shall be one flesh". This is the true sense, for neither more nor less can possibly be meant; and denotes that near conjunction, and strict union, between a man and his wife, the wife being a part of himself, and both as one flesh, and one body, and therefore not to be parted on every slight occasion; and has a particular respect to the act of carnal copulation, which only ought to be between one man and one woman, lawfully married to each other;



6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.





[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]What therefore God hath joined together (o oun o qeoß sunezeuxen). Note "what," not "whom." The marriage relation God has made. "The creation of sex, and the high doctrine as to the cohesion it produces between man and woman, laid down in Gen., interdict separation" (Bruce). The word for "joined together" means "yoked together," a common verb for marriage in ancient Greek. It is the timeless aorist indicative (sunezeuxen), true always.[/font]


~~~~~~~~~~~
And Jesus didn't exempt anyone from the definition. I read on the board somewhere today concerning doctrines.... that a doctrine cannot be based upon something that is NOT said in the Bible. Well, it does NOT say that Mary remained a perpetual virgin, but the Bible does say that when the two become one flesh... it means sex.





~serapha~
 
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Serapha

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rebazar said:
Mary and Joseph had 9 children and these are their names and birthdays:

JESUS-AUG/21/7 B.C.

JAMES-APR/2/3 B.C.

MIRIAM-JULY/11/2 B.C.

JOSEPH-MAR/16/ 1 A.D.

SIMON-APR/14/ 2 A.D.

MARTHA-SEP/13/ 3 A.D.

JUDE-JUNE /24/ 5 A.D.

AMOS-JAN /9/ 7 A.D.

RUTH-APR/17/ 9 A.D.

On SEP/25/ 8 A.D. Joseph, the father, dies in a construction accident. Jesus, 14 at the time of his father's death, becomes the head of the household and is responible for the welfare of the whole family.

[ from The Urantia Book ]



Cheers
Hi there!

:wave:


Interesting!

And how did Jesus support this family at the age of 14.... remembering Jewish customs concerning apprenticeship....

~serapha~
 
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rebazar

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Mary and Joseph had 9 children and these are their names and birthdays:

JESUS-AUG/21/7 B.C.

JAMES-APR/2/3 B.C.

MIRIAM-JULY/11/2 B.C.

JOSEPH-MAR/16/ 1 A.D.

SIMON-APR/14/ 2 A.D.

MARTHA-SEP/13/ 3 A.D.

JUDE-JUNE /24/ 5 A.D.

AMOS-JAN /9/ 7 A.D.

RUTH-APR/17/ 9 A.D.

On SEP/25/ 8 A.D. Joseph, the father, dies in a construction accident. Jesus, 14 at the time of his father's death, becomes the head of the household and is responible for the welfare of the whole family.

[ from The Urantia Book ]



Cheers
quot-bot-left.gif
quot-bot-right.gif

Hi there!

:wave:


Interesting!

And how did Jesus support this family at the age of 14.... remembering Jewish customs concerning apprenticeship....

~serapha~


2. THE DEATH OF JOSEPH

All did go well until that fateful day of Tuesday, September 25, when a runner from Sepphoris brought to this Nazareth home the tragic news that Joseph had been severely injured by the falling of a derrick while at work on the governor's residence. The messenger from Sepphoris had stopped at the shop on the way to Joseph's home, informing Jesus of his father's accident, and they went together to the house to break the sad news to Mary. Jesus desired to go immediately to his father, but Mary would hear to nothing but that she must hasten to her husband's side. She directed that James, then ten years of age, should accompany her to Sepphoris while Jesus remained home with the younger children until she should return, as she did not know how seriously Joseph had been injured. But Joseph died of his injuries before Mary arrived. They brought him to Nazareth, and on the following day he was laid to rest with his fathers.

Just at the time when prospects were good and the future looked bright, an apparently cruel hand struck down the head of this Nazareth household, the affairs of this home were disrupted, and every plan for Jesus and his future education was demolished. This carpenter lad, now just past fourteen years of age, awakened to the realization that he had not only to fulfill the commission of his heavenly Father to reveal the divine nature on earth and in the flesh, but that his young human nature must also shoulder the responsibility of caring for his widowed mother and seven brothers and sisters÷and another yet to be born. This lad of Nazareth now became the sole support and comfort of this so suddenly bereaved family. Thus were permitted those occurrences of the natural order of events on Urantia which would force this young man of destiny so early to assume these heavy but highly educational and disciplinary responsibilities attendant upon becoming the head of a human family, of becoming father to his own brothers and sisters, of supporting and protecting his mother, of functioning as guardian of his father's home, the only home he was to know while on this world.

Jesus cheerfully accepted the responsibilities so suddenly thrust upon him, and he carried them faithfully to the end. At least one great problem and anticipated difficulty in his life had been tragically solved÷he would not now be expected to go to Jerusalem to study under the rabbis. It remained always true that Jesus "sat at no man's feet." He was ever willing to learn from even the humblest of little children, but he never derived authority to teach truth from human sources.

Still he knew nothing of the Gabriel visit to his mother before his birth; he only learned of this from John on the day of his baptism, at the beginning of his public ministry.

As the years passed, this young carpenter of Nazareth increasingly measured every institution of society and every usage of religion by the unvarying test: What does it do for the human soul? does it bring God to man? does it bring man to God? While this youth did not wholly neglect the recreational and social aspects of life, more and more he devoted his time and energies to just two purposes: the care of his family and the preparation to do his Father's heavenly will on earth.



Page 1389
This year it became the custom for the neighbors to drop in during the winter evenings to hear Jesus play upon the harp, to listen to his stories (for the lad was a master storyteller), and to hear him read from the Greek scriptures.


The economic affairs of the family continued to run fairly smoothly as there was quite a sum of money on hand at the time of Joseph's death. Jesus early demonstrated the possession of keen business judgment and financial sagacity. He was liberal but frugal; he was saving but generous. He proved to be a wise and efficient administrator of his father's estate.

But in spite of all that Jesus and the Nazareth neighbors could do to bring cheer into the home, Mary, and even the children, were overcast with sadness. Joseph was gone. Joseph was an unusual husband and father, and they all missed him. And it seemed all the more tragic to think that he died ere they could speak to him or hear his farewell blessing.



[ from The Urantia Book ]


The Book answers it much better than I could !!


Cheers
 
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thereselittleflower

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Bulldog said:
therese, we cannot debate in OBOB. Currently, this would be the best place to bring up the scriptures here.

And if you don;t what to debatw here because it is the Unorthodox foru, then just view it from the poin that there are those arguing for Unorthodoxy. ;)
Hi Bulldog

Actually, I already addressed that here

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8066364&postcount=135

It simply slipped my mind that you guys couldn't go to the CO area . .

:)


As for your post, I am tired, so I won't be answering it right now. But hopefully I can get to it soon. You haen't presented anything I haven't already heard. :)


As for some of the other stuff presented here . . I am like :eek:


Peace in Him!
 
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Toms777

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Bulldog said:
therese, we cannot debate in OBOB. Currently, this would be the best place to bring up the scriptures here.

And if you don;t what to debatw here because it is the Unorthodox foru, then just view it from the poin that there are those arguing for Unorthodoxy. ;)
Quite true the efforts to move threads on topics such as this into OBOB are an effort to stop free and open debate.

Those who love truth do not fear free and open debate and do not fear the truth.

Those who fear the truth will be constantly trying to stop others from bringing forward facts and will try to stop discussions and debates where uncomfiortables truths may be exposed.

I believe that those who are truly in Christ have nothing to fear from the truth since He is Truth!
 
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Toms777

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:

Would you mind posting the earliest known listing of popes, or would that be the earliest listing of people as bishop of Rome?

Psssttt.... I'm thinking I can find an earlier record than you can.

~serapha~
Actually, there are RC sources which question whether their was a 1st century bishop in Rome as we currently understand the term in any case.

Even if this could be proven, Catholics then must also prove the following:

1) that the Bishop of Rome had supremacy

AND

2) that peter was bishop of Rome.

I'd be pleased to see any Roman catholic attempt to prove those two points.
 
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Toms777

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Bulldog said:
I am not Catholic, and do not believe the Marian dogmas, but I would like to clear up a misconception.

According to Catholic theology, Mary was saved by being born without sin.

An illustration would be a man cathing a woman before she falls in a well. The man would still be a Saviour, you see?
I understand catholic teaching very well.

In the case of sin, if one has no sinned, then one has nothing to be saved from. the analogy does not make any sense, because it assumes that she would fall. On the other hand, a better analogy is a person who is caught speeding and has their fine paid by someone that they do not know.

If someone paid the fine before there was a charge, that would make no sense.

I might add, that if Mary had to be without sin to have a Son who was sinless, then so would Mary's mother have to be without sin, and so on and so forth back to Adam and Eve. Thus the doctrine of Mary being sinless is a denial of the gospel.

But more important that anything is that it is not found in the Bibkle, and we cannot establish doctrine on anything but God's word.

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV
 
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Toms777

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lared said:
almost 2 billion people know that there is an Easter rabbit and a Santa Claus.
Good point!

Ever see the surveys which show how many people believe that Elvis is still alive also? This serves to show that we must establish doctrine solely on God's word in the Bible.

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV
 
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Toms777

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thereselittleflower said:
Yes, but I am not about to debate our doctrine here in the Unorthodox forum.

If you would like this answered more in depth, please ask us in OBOB. :)

Thanks!

Peace in Him!
Well, Therese you have been doing a great deal of that - why are you hestiant to discuss where there is free and open discussion, and prefer to discuss where those who disagree agree with you are not permitted to discuss.

Those who love truth do not fear the truth.
 
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