Mary the Ever-Virgin?

[a_ntv]

I understand about her being a virgin when she gave birth to Christ... but did she remain a virgin after this? Scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters... how can this be if Mary was an ever-virgin? Were they biological siblings, or brothers and sisters of faith?

I'm confused

Yes of course, Mary remained always a virgin even after Christ's birth.
The Bible is very clear on this issue: "Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut."(Ez44:2)

There are three explanations of the brothers and sister of Jesus: 1) they were sons/daughters of Joseph and a previous wife 2) the term used means actually "cousins" 3) they were brothers in the faith

Mary's mother, Anna, was not virgin and Mary was born normally from the union between her father and her mother.

 

[seashale76]

Yes of course, Mary remained always a virgin even after Christ's birth.
The Bible is very clear on this issue: "Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut."(Ez44:2)

There are three explanations of the brothers and sister of Jesus: 1) they were sons/daughters of Joseph and a previous wife 2) the term used means actually "cousins" 3) they were brothers in the faith

Mary's mother, Anna, was not virgin and Mary was born normally from the union between his father and his mother.

 

[Celticflower]

Mary's mother, Anna, was not virgin and Mary was born normally from the union between his father and his mother.

A bit of gender confusion???

 

[a_ntv]

A bit of gender confusion???

I apologize for my mis-typing. I've edited.

 

[Sketcher]

Yes of course, Mary remained always a virgin even after Christ's birth.
The Bible is very clear on this issue: "Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut."(Ez44:2)

It's far from clear that it refers to Mary's body.

 

[hamashiachagape]

I understand about her being a virgin when she gave birth to Christ... but did she remain a virgin after this? Scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters... how can this be if Mary was an ever-virgin? Were they biological siblings, or brothers and sisters of faith?

I'm confused

I'm sorry to reveal the origins of this, but I do know this because I took college level Mythology courses.

Zeus's mother was considered holy. The Romans elevated the mother of Zeus to a level equal to or above Zeus himself. Thus this is where this originates from. Mary was nothing more than a human according to scripture, despite Constantine's efforts (a Roman pagan himself) to establish her as an equivalent to the Holy Spirit.

The key to recognize about the virgin Mary can be seen right from scripture itself. Matthew 1:25 "25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." The Greek word here means to have sexual relations.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Yes of course, Mary remained always a virgin even after Christ's birth.
The Bible is very clear on this issue: "Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut."(Ez44:2)

There are three explanations of the brothers and sister of Jesus: 1) they were sons/daughters of Joseph and a previous wife 2) the term used means actually "cousins" 3) they were brothers in the faith

Mary's mother, Anna, was not virgin and Mary was born normally from the union between her father and her mother.

Given the Greek, none of these understandings pan out.

 

[seashale76]

Given the Greek, none of these understandings pan out.

Tell that to the Greeks.

 

[Harry3142]

I personally believe that Mary had other children after she gave birth to Jesus. She was a good Jewess; her husband was a good Jew. It was their obligation to have children.

I also suspect that the reason Christianity came up with perpetual virginity is due more to gnosticism than it is to any passage of Scripture. The gnostics' theology taught that there were two creations. One was the creation of all that is spiritual, and so it was to be seen as pure and holy, while the other creation was all that is material, and so it was to be seen as base and inherently evil. Even our own bodies were to be seen as 'prisons' from which we were to long for escape.

This carried over into marriage; it was not to happen. For two people to know each other in the biblical sense was to them the basest and most evil of acts, far exceeding even murder, which could be rationalized in that it freed the person's spirit from the prison (body) it was inhabiting. This theological error was still quite prevalent at the time of Constantine.

Even though ostensibly the Council of Nicea condemned the gnostic beliefs as heresy, there was still some give-and-take which happened 'under the table'. Constantine had ordered that the Christian leadership come up with a theology that would 'cement' the beliefs of the church factions. He had the foresight to realize that unless there was a common ground which could be accepted by all, there would inevitably be fighting between Christian factions. This was not acceptable. He was a military man, and knew quite well the dangers to all of society of having a part of that society at war with each other.

And the church leaders knew that they had no influence over Constantine, to bias him in favor of one faction as opposed to the other factions. Constantine had given the Christians religious freedom, but he himself refused to accept Christianity as his faith until he was on his deathbed. He had worshipped the sun, and he continued to worship the sun. So the men gathered at Nicea knew that they would all be held accountable if they didn't come up with an agreement that they all could live with.

 

[razeontherock]

Watch it Harry, that's "Saint Constantine" you're talking about there! (I still haven't managed to choke that one down) Can you imagine Joseph, marrying Mary under the ever-virgin doctrine? When exactly did he sign up for that?!?

 

[Celticflower]

Watch it Harry, that's "Saint Constantine" you're talking about there! (I still haven't managed to choke that one down) Can you imagine Joseph, marrying Mary under the ever-virgin doctrine? When exactly did he sign up for that?!?

Well, since he was an "old man" (although I've never seen an age listed in scripture for him) maybe he didn't care about that part of marriage. Remember, this was before the age of Viagra.

 

[Chuck Finley]

I understand about her being a virgin when she gave birth to Christ... but did she remain a virgin after this? Scripture says that Jesus had brothers and sisters... how can this be if Mary was an ever-virgin? Were they biological siblings, or brothers and sisters of faith?

I'm confused

That Mary is "ever virgin" is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible says that she and Joseph had a normal relationship as man and wife after Jesus was born and that they went on to have other children.

 

[laconicstudent]

I've always wondered why everyone always assumes that St. Joseph was obsessed with sex.

 

[Chuck Finley]

It gets even stranger when RC claims Mary was herself conceived via virgin birth. That makes her, extra virgin?

Forgive me ...

Yes, I've heard Catholics say this one many times, too. But here's the problem with that argument, Razontherock. The whole point of Mary being a virgin is that God has to be the Father. If Mary's mother was a virgin, then does that mean that Mary's father was God, too? And what about Mary's mother's mother?

It all comes down to Mary needing to be a virgin so that God can be the Father and Jesus has both natures, the human nature from Mary and the divine nature from God.

If we follow the Catholics' logic to it's conclusion, it ends up with some really bizzare ideas.

Catholics will often say things like "The traditional position of the ancient Church is that Mary is perpetually virgin."

Well, that's fine if we get our doctrine from tradition, but for those of us who derive our doctrine from the scriptures, that answer is wholly unsatisfying and contradictory.

They will also tell you that "the words often translated as siblings today can also be translated as brethren, cousin, etc. It covered a wide range of relationships" and that's true. However, as with studying any passage of scripture, context is king and when a word has more than one meaning (the battle over the meaning of the word "yowm" is another good example) we must let context decide which meaning we're going to go with.

In all of the cases where Jesus' brothers are referred to as "brothers", the context clearly shows that it is reffering to brothers. Not bretheren or cousins or neighbors or friends. Brothers.

 

[a_ntv]

If Mary's mother was a virgin, then does that mean that Mary's father was God, too? And what about Mary's mother's mother?

The Catholic Church never sustained that the birth of Mary was not absolutely normal.
i.e. according the CC, Mary's mother and father had sex and nine months later Mary was born. Mary's mother was thus obviously not a virgin.

The virginity of Mary herself is meant to underline that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, an He was not as you and me: He is true Man and true God, our Lord and our God.

 

[Chuck Finley]

The Catholic Church never sustained that the birth of Mary was not absolutely normal.
i.e. according the CC, Mary's mother and father had sex and nine months later Mary was born. Mary's mother was thus obviously not a virgin.

So then Catholics disagree on this?

The virginity of Mary herself is meant to underline that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, an He was not as you and me: He is true Man and true God, our Lord and our God.

Correct. However, that doesn't support the Catholic idea that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life.