Mary Sinless?

[hope_is_last_to_die]

And exactly when do you think that 'forgiving' occurred? Mary is speaking of her spirit rejoicing in the 'past' tense -- her spirit HAS rejoiced in her Savior.

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matt 1:21

Yes Mary knew Jesus would save her from her sins and that is why she was praising her Saviour

 

[narnia59]

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matt 1:21

Yes Mary knew Jesus would save her from her sins and that is why she was praising her Saviour

She says that "he that is mighty hath done to me great things" -- past tense. Her soul "magnifies the Lord" -- present tense (a singularly unique comment about a person's soul in Scripture). Her spirt "hath rejoiced" in her Savior -- past tense.

Are you saying that she had to wait for Jesus to be born before she could be saved?

 

[MamaZ]

She was indeed saved by that very same grace -- the grace merited to us by Christ on the cross. No Catholic should believe otherwise -- it's spelled out pretty plainly that is the source of her salvation.

You have taken it well beyond that truth though. You seem to believe that this same grace is applied equally, reaches all in the exact same way, acts in the exact same way for each person, manifests in each person in the exact same way. That is not scriptural. For it is the same grace that saves us that Paul says "to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it".

The concept that the 'portion' of grace Mary received from Christ is unique based upon her unique gift and role falls in line with what St. Paul believed and taught. The concept that her gift was different based upon the gift she received, and that the grace given aligns with the gift given, is what St. Paul teaches as well. The "all of us are exactly the same" theology is quite contradictory to that. His grace does not, as you put it "touch each and every one of his people the same way".

He saves people the same way. By Grace through Faith which is not of ourselves but a gift from God. He may touch one with discernment and another with prophecy but these are the gifts of the Spirit..So Mary being sinless is a stretch for Mary was born of Adam just as you and I. In order for Mary to be born sinless she would have had to be born as Christ was. For He was the only sinless that walked the earth.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

He saves people the same way. By Grace through Faith which is not of ourselves but a gift from God. He may touch one with discernment and another with prophecy but these are the gifts of the Spirit..So Mary being sinless is a stretch for Mary was born of Adam just as you and I. In order for Mary to be born sinless she would have had to be born as Christ was. For He was the only sinless that walked the earth.

Amen. Well said.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I have a question regarding this. I know that we Orthodox hold that the Virgin Mary was sinless. Does this imply as is the case in Roman Catholic teaching that she never in her entire life actually committed any kind of sin no matter how minor or that she was made sinless by grace (IE her sins where washed away) ? I ask this because I was reading the Homilies on the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug and he seems to point to the later possibility.

St John the Wonderworker wrote a wonderful booklet on the Orthodox understanding of the Theotokos:


On Orthodox Veneration of the Mary

(I don't know why the title of that page came out that way.)

Mary

 

[narnia59]

St John the Wonderworker wrote a wonderful booklet on the Orthodox understanding of the Theotokos:


On Orthodox Veneration of the Mary

(I don't know why the title of that page came out that way.)

Mary

Thanks for posting that Mary. I don't particularly want to argue the point from a Catholic perspective but better understand what seems to me to be differences in the Orthodox view. I would say overall that what I've read from Timothy Ware is a more accurate representation of what the Catholic view is of the Immacuate Conception than this booklet you've posted.

One thing I do not understand about the position of St. John here is his assertion that believing that Mary was conceived without original sin means that it was therefore impossible for her to have personal sins. I know that is not the Catholic view, but I'm trying to understand the logic of his thinking. From the Catholic perspective Mary is truly the new Eve, and is simply in the state Eve was created (without original sin). And we all know that didn't make it impossible for Eve to sin.

I know that a lot of the difference is rooted in a different understanding of original sin. But this too puzzles me, when he says:

This same Holy Father teaches concerning the universality of original sin, from which Christ alone is an exception. "Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birthgiving, did not experience earthly taint" (St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2). "God alone is without sin. All born in the usual manner of woman and man, that is, of fleshly union, become guilty of sin.

I believe I've been told by Orthodox before that Christ assumed 'fallen' human nature -- to believe he was conceived without that means he couldn't redeem us -- he had to enter into our existing fallen nature. Also, this says that everyone born in the usual manner becomes "guilty of sin", and I thought the Orthodox viewed that we have no guilt from original sin and that's a Catholic error in thinking.

Any clarification would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[boswd]

He saves people the same way. By Grace through Faith which is not of ourselves but a gift from God. He may touch one with discernment and another with prophecy but these are the gifts of the Spirit..So Mary being sinless is a stretch for Mary was born of Adam just as you and I. In order for Mary to be born sinless she would have had to be born as Christ was. For He was the only sinless that walked the earth.

hmmm that sounds familiar


1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46


1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

 

[MamaZ]

Only one thing this through baptism. Now would that be water baptism or spiritual baptism?

 

[boswd]

Only one thing this through baptism. Now would that be water baptism or spiritual baptism?

it's both

 

[MamaZ]

it's both

So now how does what you have posted state that Mary was sinless? And was she sinless all her life?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He saves people the same way. By Grace through Faith which is not of ourselves but a gift from God. He may touch one with discernment and another with prophecy but these are the gifts of the Spirit..So Mary being sinless is a stretch for Mary was born of Adam just as you and I. In order for Mary to be born sinless she would have had to be born as Christ was. For He was the only sinless that walked the earth.

Interesting perspective on that.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." Matt 1:21

Yes Mary knew Jesus would save her from her sins and that is why she was praising her Saviour

the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was saved (through Jesus' merits) at her conception, ie: the Immaculate Conception. He also gave her the grace to not sin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was saved (through Jesus' merits) at her conception, ie: the Immaculate Conception. He also gave her the grace to not sin.

This is quite true - that the Catholic church teaches this. The Catholic Church believes there were only two sinless individuals who walked upon this earth. The rest of Christendom believes there was only one - the Man Christ Jesus.

 

[jackmt]

the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was saved (through Jesus' merits) at her conception, ie: the Immaculate Conception. He also gave her the grace to not sin.

Where does this teaching come from? And by what authority? Merit saves noone. Grace alone does. You cannot justify this belief about Mary to any degree within Scripture.

 

[justinangel]

There is no solid evidence that Mary was even a Christian. On the NT evidence, it may even be that she rejected Christ. Certainly no Catholic can prove otherwise.

Are you serious?

When they entered the city they went to the upper room where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Phillip and Thomas, Bartholemew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
Acts 1, 13-14

"Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Luke 1, 45

Not only did Mary accept Christ spiritually - "My soul proclaims the glory of the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my saviour." - but she brought him into the world physically in the service of God the Father after having first conceived him in her heart through faith - "Let it be done to me according to your word." (Lk 1:35; 46-47).

"He was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily (c.A.D. 177)

The early Church held Mary in very high esteem, which would not be the case if she did in fact reject her own divine Son: the Lamb of God.

PAX

 

[Ave Maria]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed sinless. She was conceived without sin. Yes, she did need a savior. However, Jesus saved her at the moment of her conception whereas He saves others after they are born. Don't say that Jesus can't do this because Jesus is outside of time. Also:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
(Mark 10:27 RSV-CE)

 

[Lion King]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed sinless. She was conceived without sin. Yes, she did need a savior. However, Jesus saved her at the moment of her conception whereas He saves others after they are born. Don't say that Jesus can't do this because Jesus is outside of time. Also:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
(Mark 10:27 RSV-CE)

To be honest, your argument leaves a lot to be desired.

For example:

Anonymous person: I believe Peter was bestowed with the gift of flight by Christ.

Me: No...that's not true.

Anonymous person: Don't say that Jesus can't do this because Jesus is outside of time. Also:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27


Me:

 

[justinangel]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed sinless. She was conceived without sin. Yes, she did need a savior. However, Jesus saved her at the moment of her conception whereas He saves others after they are born. Don't say that Jesus can't do this because Jesus is outside of time. Also:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
(Mark 10:27 RSV-CE)

"Mary, the pre-redeemed, is already active as the one planned by God. In this respect, she forms a unique encounter between creation and pre-redemption. A human father may say, 'I want my son to be a doctor. From the day he was born I've done everything I can to make sure it happens.' But the son is of course always free to do something else. When, however, God the Father begins with Mary and her pre-redemption, the realization of his plan already exists, so to speak. It is absolutely certain that she will henceforth belong to heaven and that her place there was secured from its creation. She is not pre-redeemed in a mere image or idea, but in fact and reality. It is a fact with real consequences. In eternal life such concrete certanties do exist. Accordingly, something of her already existed at the creation of the world. Her characteristics do not float around unpossessed, but rather she possesses them from the beginning. She has her place in the course of the world's creation precisely because of her function as 'co-Redemptrix'. The idea of 'co-redemption' is 'older' than that of pre-redemption: the latter is a consequence of the former, a means to an end.

"In Mary resides the idea of the perfect human being. Thus Mary is in fact not the second, but the first Eve; she is the one who did not fall and sees how the second Eve does fall.

"Assume that a sculptor has a block of marble. Because the block has a certain form, he decides to shape the statue in a certain way. He will get to work on the statue, however, only once he has made a model out of ordinary clay of what he has in mind. Although the shape of the stone played a part in determining the idea, which is now exact in his mind, he will get to work on the marble only once he has made the clay model. In relation to Eve, Mary is the piece of marble that was there from the start."

Adrienne von Speyr, Mary In the Redemption

PAX

 

[justinangel]

To be honest, your argument leaves a lot to be desired.

For example:

Anonymous person: I believe Peter was bestowed with the gift of flight by Christ.

Me: No...that's not true.

Anonymous person: Don't say that Jesus can't do this because Jesus is outside of time. Also:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27

I see no reason why Peter would be given the ability to fly, but I can understand why God would create Mary a sinless creature. She was predestined to be the Mother of the divine Son and undo what Eve had wrought by bringing the Saviour into the world by her faith working through love. Suffice it to say, Christians have believed in Mary's sinlessness since apostolic time, but that Peter was given "the gift of flight" is not an article of faith. Your logic is absolutely seneseless, to say the least.

PAX

 

[Lion King]

I see no reason why Peter would be given the ability to fly, but I can understand why God would create Mary a sinless creature. She was predestined to be the Mother of the divine Son and undo what Eve had wrought by bringing the Saviour into the world by her faith working through love.

PAX

If someone came unto you right now, and said that Enoch was sinless because:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27


Would you believe that person?