Mary Sinless?

[LittleLambofJesus]

I didn't even know this thread was around!

LLOJ subscribes

 

[lionroar0]

nv

 

[Ave Maria]

No, the only one who was ever sinless was Jesus. Mary may have been and probably was a righteous woman being the mother of God but that does not mean that she was sinless.

 

[Rick Otto]

She was blessed,... full of grace but not immaculate.
Mercy is the motivation for grace. Having it means you needed it.

 

[Ave Maria]

Perhaps this will help you:

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps this will help you:

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

Thanks for those links

 

[hope_is_last_to_die]

Mary answers this question;

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. Luke 1:47

Sinners need a Saviour and all praise to God, Mary had her sins forgiven by our wonderful Saviour Jesus

 

[narnia59]

Mary answers this question;

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. Luke 1:47

Sinners need a Saviour and all praise to God, Mary had her sins forgiven by our wonderful Saviour Jesus

And exactly when do you think that 'forgiving' occurred? Mary is speaking of her spirit rejoicing in the 'past' tense -- her spirit HAS rejoiced in her Savior.

 

[MamaZ]

And exactly when do you think that 'forgiving' occurred? Mary is speaking of her spirit rejoicing in the 'past' tense -- her spirit HAS rejoiced in her Savior.

Mary was Jewish and was waiting for the promise of the Messiah.

 

[narnia59]

Mary was Jewish and was waiting for the promise of the Messiah.

Mary's soul was already magnifying the Lord and her spirit already rejocing in her Savior. She had already experienced the promise of the Messiah.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary's soul was already magnifying the Lord and her spirit already rejocing in her Savior. She had already experienced the promise of the Messiah.

Which was not because she was sinless but because God had mercy upon her. His grace touches each and every one of His people the same way.

 

[narnia59]

Which was not because she was sinless but because God had mercy upon her. His grace touches each and every one of His people the same way.

Not according to St. Paul.

Romans 12:
4: For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, 5: so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6: Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7: if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; 8: he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one LORD, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

 

[MamaZ]

Not according to St. Paul.

Romans 12:
4: For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, 5: so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6: Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7: if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; 8: he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one LORD, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

Gifts are different sure but we are saved by the same Grace as Mary was. For we are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works so that any man can boast. Because we are different in the body is our positions in the body. Not the grace and Gods gift of salvation. Mary was saved by the very same Grace that I was or anyone one else who is saved.

 

[narnia59]

Gifts are different sure but we are saved by the same Grace as Mary was. For we are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works so that any man can boast. Because we are different in the body is our positions in the body. Not the grace and Gods gift of salvation. Mary was saved by the very same Grace that I was or anyone one else who is saved.

She was indeed saved by that very same grace -- the grace merited to us by Christ on the cross. No Catholic should believe otherwise -- it's spelled out pretty plainly that is the source of her salvation.

You have taken it well beyond that truth though. You seem to believe that this same grace is applied equally, reaches all in the exact same way, acts in the exact same way for each person, manifests in each person in the exact same way. That is not scriptural. For it is the same grace that saves us that Paul says "to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it".

The concept that the 'portion' of grace Mary received from Christ is unique based upon her unique gift and role falls in line with what St. Paul believed and taught. The concept that her gift was different based upon the gift she received, and that the grace given aligns with the gift given, is what St. Paul teaches as well. The "all of us are exactly the same" theology is quite contradictory to that. His grace does not, as you put it "touch each and every one of his people the same way".

 

[Christos Anesti]

I have a question regarding this. I know that we Orthodox hold that the Virgin Mary was sinless. Does this imply as is the case in Roman Catholic teaching that she never in her entire life actually committed any kind of sin no matter how minor or that she was made sinless by grace (IE her sins where washed away) ? I ask this because I was reading the Homilies on the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug and he seems to point to the later possibility.

 

[narnia59]

I have a question regarding this. I know that we Orthodox hold that the Virgin Mary was sinless. Does this imply as is the case in Roman Catholic teaching that she never in her entire life actually committed any kind of sin no matter how minor or that she was made sinless by grace (IE her sins where washed away) ? I ask this because I was reading the Homilies on the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug and he seems to point to the later possibility.

I would love to know the answer to that question.

I've done quite a bit of research on what the Orthodox believe in regard to Mary being sinless, and found there to be little consistency. I can show you sites that say she did sin, she became sinless at the Annunciation, she never committed any actually sins -- all Orthodox.

The excerpt below from Timothy Ware's book is probably one of the most definitive -- except he asserts that all Orthodox agree that Mary was free from actual sin. I can't say my research would agree with that. My thought is that at one time that was true but has changed in recent years. I could be wrong about that. I was delighted to find out though that I couldn't be considered a heretic for believing the Immaculate Conception.

Anyway, anything definitive you could find on the subject would be interesting.


The Orthodox Church calls Mary ‘All-Holy;’ it calls her ‘immaculate’ or ‘spotless’ (in Greek, achrantos); and all Orthodox are agreed in believing that Our Lady was free from actual sin. But was she also free from original sin? In other words, does Orthodoxy agree with the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, proclaimed as a dogma by Pope Pius the Ninth in 1854, according to which Mary, from the moment she was conceived by her mother Saint Anne, was by God’s special decree delivered from ‘all stain of original sin?’ The Orthodox Church has never in fact made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter. In the past individual Orthodox have made statements which, if not definitely affirming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, at any rate approach close to it; but since 1854 the great majority of Orthodox have rejected the doctrine, for several reasons. They feel it to be unnecessary; they feel that, at any rate as defined by the Roman Catholic Church, it implies a false understanding of original sin; they suspect the doctrine because it seems to separate Mary from the rest of the descendants of Adam, putting her in a completely different class from all the other righteous men and women of the Old Testament. From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion; and if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe in the Immaculate Conception, he could not be termed a heretic for so doing.

Excerpts from the Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware

 

[narnia59]

I would add Christos that from what I can tell, the Oriental Orthodox seem to consistently believe that Mary was free from sin her entire life. It is only within the Eastern Orthodox there appears to be no consistent belief in this regard.

 

[Christos Anesti]

that Our Lady was free from actual sin.

Even saying she is "free from actual sin" doesn't really give a definitive answer regarding if she had ever sinned. She could have been made "free from sin" even though she did at one point sin. I'm not saying that is the case. I have no idea. Just saying that even then that could be a possibility. I would need to see a statement like "she never in her entire life committed a sin" from an authoritative source to know for sure I guess. Saying "she is sinless" or "free from actual sin" would still allow the second possiblity.

 

[Christos Anesti]

This is the part from Jacob of Sarug (who is actually an OO Saint but I've seen EO call him a Saint as well so I really don't know) that seemed to imply that she was freed from sin by the Holy Spirit. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it though.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit cam to Mary,
to let loose from her the former sentence of Eve and Adam.
He sanctified her, purified her and made her blessed among women;
He freed her from that curse of sufferings on account of
Eve, her mother.

She was summoned that she might be the Mother of the Son of God;
the Holy Spirit had sanctified her and so dwelt within her.

The Spirit freed her from that debt that she might be beyond
transgression when He solemnly dwelt in her.

He purified the Mother by the Holy Spirit while dwelling in her,
that He might take from her a pure body without sin.
...
The Son wanted to be related to her,
and first He made her body without sin. <- seems to imply a change

 

[narnia59]

Even saying she is "free from actual sin" doesn't really give a definitive answer regarding if she had ever sinned. She could have been made "free from sin" even though she did at one point sin. I'm not saying that is the case. I have no idea. Just saying that even then that could be a possibility. I would need to see a statement like "she never in her entire life committed a sin" from an authoritative source to know for sure I guess. Saying "she is sinless" or "free from actual sin" would still allow the second possiblity.

That would seem to be the gist of it -- there doesn't seem to be a definitive understanding of what 'free from sin' means.

Orthodox wiki sums it up:
The Orthodox Church calls Mary "immaculate," "pure," or "spotless" (achrantos in Greek). Some Orthodox state that she was free from actual sin, some say she never sinned, and others just say she died sinless. As for original sin and the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the Orthodox Church has never made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the subject. The majority of Orthodox have rejected the doctrine, for it seems to separate Mary from the rest of mankind, putting her in a completely different class from all the other righteous men and women of the Old Testament. It is important that Mary was the same as all mankind so that all Christians can follow her example and submit to God's will. Mary was born a sinner, a human with full human nature. Mary’s Son, Jesus the Christ, took flesh from her. So as Son of God, He assumed fallen human nature from her and redeemed humanity by His Crucifixion and Resurrection. Also, the original doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (1869) implies an understanding of original sin not held by the Orthodox Church.
Theotokos - OrthodoxWiki


And while the part about both Jesus and Mary assuming fallen human nature seems to be the more predominant Orthodox position, I found one catechism that says this which seems completely contradictory to what Orthodox in general believe:


Q. Has anyone been exempted from the original sin?

A. Only Jesus Christ, because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, which, being God, is without sin, and of the Virgin Mary after her cleansing of original sin by the Holy Spirit when the Angel announced to her the conception and birth of Christ.

Official creed of the Orthodox church


Thus I have remained confused about this topic from the Orthodox perspective ever since I began trying to figure it out.