Mary Sinless?

[dinomight]

Hi, this is my first post on this site, and I look forward to exploring the community.

To start, I'm currently a member of a Baptist church, and I have been studying Catholicism and Church history lately. My main studies on Catholicism have been over the Internet through various sites, and I've got a book I'm currently reading about the Early Church.

Through my research, I've found that the Catholics have many good points that they defend through Scripture. I can't say that I agree with everything, but I'm developing a much greater understanding of why Catholics believe what they do. Of course, it's hard to argue with a point when there is Scripture to support it, and so I've found that most of my issues with the Church are resolved.

Here is probably the single greatest thing that I now take exception to, and that is the idea that Mary, mother of Jesus, did not sin. I've read a bit on this topic, but it just does not make sense to me that she, who was only human, could have possibly been sinless.

Please note that I'm simply trying to learn as much as I can, and of course I pray that God will lead me down the right path. I know that He will not let me down as long as my trust is in Christ. With that said, I would really appreciate anyone's clarification about Mary, and where the idea of her sinlessness and the Immaculate Conception came from. Thank you.

 

[MrStain]

Hi, this is my first post on this site, and I look forward to exploring the community.

To start, I'm currently a member of a Baptist church, and I have been studying Catholicism and Church history lately. My main studies on Catholicism have been over the Internet through various sites, and I've got a book I'm currently reading about the Early Church.

Through my research, I've found that the Catholics have many good points that they defend through Scripture. I can't say that I agree with everything, but I'm developing a much greater understanding of why Catholics believe what they do. Of course, it's hard to argue with a point when there is Scripture to support it, and so I've found that most of my issues with the Church are resolved.

Here is probably the single greatest thing that I now take exception to, and that is the idea that Mary, mother of Jesus, did not sin. I've read a bit on this topic, but it just does not make sense to me that she, who was only human, could have possibly been sinless.

Please note that I'm simply trying to learn as much as I can, and of course I pray that God will lead me down the right path. I know that He will not let me down as long as my trust is in Christ. With that said, I would really appreciate anyone's clarification about Mary, and where the idea of her sinlessness and the Immaculate Conception came from. Thank you.

Welcome to the forums, dinomight!! I was right where you are just a few years back. I was also a Baptist and by the grace of God I was introduced to the names of some fine folks in the early Church. This led me to one discovery & another & another & another.

Ya. It's very hard to believe anyone could remain sinless, but when I ponder salvation history and see the loving graces God has given again & again I understand how all of this is within the realm of God's possibilities. Each time his servants failed Him, He forgave and created a covenant with an even larger group in order to bring more people into communion with Him. From one holy family, to one holy tribe, a kingdom, and finally to one holy Church He continued to expand His loving arms. God is definitely love.

His greatest Gift to us was our Lord Jesus Christ and our Father chose Mary to be the mother of that Gift. Afterall, if you could create your own mother, as God did in this case, wouldn't you make her special? Like the Ark of the Covenant that was made of the purest gold to carry God's Word, Mary is often referred to as the pure ark of the New Covenant who bore the Word of God made flesh. One of my favorite biblical types is comparing Exodus 40:34-38 to Luke 1:35 where Mary is overshadowed by the power of the Highest. Neat stuff!

There is much more out there on the topic, but those are the first things that come to mind. Remember what the Angel said to Mary, "For with God nothing will be impossible".

Christ is Risen, brother!

 

[MrPolo]

Mary, mother of Jesus, did not sin. I've read a bit on this topic, but it just does not make sense to me that she, who was only human, could have possibly been sinless.

Welcome to the forums! Not sure what you have read, but here are a few things to remember that may help:

1. Not all of divine revelation is exhausted in Scripture, so just because you don't see an explicit statement "Mary was sinless" in Scripture, it may be revealed in Sacred Tradition.

2. The other poster mentioned typology. It may help you to research the following Old Testament fulfillments about Mary:
a. Mary is the New Eve (Eve was created without sin also. So was Adam.)
b. Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant. (see the table here, and a good article on her sinlessness)
c. Mary as figure of the spotless bride of Christ, the Church.

3. Also, remember that infants cannot sin, they have no capacity for reason. So are the severely brain damaged. In fact, there are theories that John the Baptist, while born with original sin, was full of the Holy Spirit from his 3rd month in the womb (cf. Lk 1:13-15, Lk 1:41), and did not commit a sin in life.

Hope that helps. Thanks for studying the matter!

 

[calluna]

a. Mary is the New Eve (Eve was created without sin also. So was Adam.)

So Mary was married to Jesus?

 

[MrStain]

So Mary was married to Jesus?

Don't be silly!

These early Christian references to the new Eve might help:

" ... and that He became Man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent, might be also the very course by which it would be put down. For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Mosts High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son God. And she replied: 'Be it done unto me according to thy word'"" - Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew [AD 155]

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, 'Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word'. Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey... - having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race. ... Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies [AD 180]

Does that help?

 

[Kat8765]

Hey, I'm new here too and I just want to add to what these other posters have stated. I found it very interesting to find out that even Maritn Luther, John Calvin acutally both believed in this themselves. I would find you some quotes but I'm in a hurry, just wanted to put in my two cents.

 

[MrStain]

Hey, I'm new here too and I just want to add to what these other posters have stated. I found it very interesting to find out that even Maritn Luther, John Calvin acutally both believed in this themselves. I would find you some quotes but I'm in a hurry, just wanted to put in my two cents.

Welcome, Kat! It's good to see that I'm not the only newbie. Hope to see you around the forums.

 

[calluna]

Don't be silly!

One always knows when the RCC gets caught out (which is all the time). It gets abusive, accusing of what it does itself, usually.

Does that help?

It's casuistic excrement. If Mary is the second Eve, she must have married the second Adam. So in order to pervert the gospel with its humanism, the RCC insults Jesus with incest.

They just don't think these things through, Catholics. And you Prots haven't got your wits about you, have you? Look out.

 

[calluna]

Hey, I'm new here too and I just want to add to what these other posters have stated. I found it very interesting to find out that even Maritn Luther, John Calvin acutally both believed in this themselves.

No surprise there. Despicable off-scourings, both of them.

 

[calluna]

b. Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant. (see the table here, and a good article on her sinlessness)

"The cloud covered the Tent of meeting and the glory of Yahweh filled the tabernacle." Exodus 40:34

So Mary was the equivalent of animal hides? That figures!

"However can the Ark of Yahweh (= My Lord) come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9

Let's take a peek at the whole verse, shall we?

'Then David was angry because the Lord's wrath had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah. David was afraid of the Lord that day and said, "How can the ark of the Lord ever come to me?" 2 Sa 6:8-9 NIV

Also, there is no 'my' in the verse- a bit of twisting here.

"And David danced before the Lord with all his might ... So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet." 2 Samuel 6:14-15

So dancing is equivalent to a leap? And what did the leap have to do with Mary anyway?

"And Mary abode with her about three months." Luke 1:56

'About three months' is not 'three months'. But here's another instance:

'Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem for three months and ten days. He did evil in the eyes of the Lord.' 2 Ch 36:9 NIV

"Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son." Luke 1:57

Well now, what is so blessed about having a child. A woman has one every 2 seconds, they reckon.

What a legless table this is.

 

[Kat8765]

You say that the Catholic Church insults Jesus with incest (which is absurd)but I could easily say that you insult Jesus by assuming that he could preside in anything(Mary's womb)less than perfect.

 

[MrStain]

One always knows when the RCC gets caught out (which is all the time). It gets abusive, accusing of what it does itself, usually.

It's casuistic excrement. If Mary is the second Eve, she must have married the second Adam. So in order to pervert the gospel with its humanism, the RCC insults Jesus with incest.

They just don't think these things through, Catholics. And you Prots haven't got your wits about you, have you? Look out.

Ahh.. the love.

No surprise there. Despicable off-scourings, both of them.

For someone who's obviously not Luther's #1 fan, you sound an awful like him with your talk of excrement.

 

[calluna]

c. Mary as figure of the spotless bride of Christ, the Church.

There is no solid evidence that Mary was even a Christian. On the NT evidence, it may even be that she rejected Christ. Certainly no Catholic can prove otherwise.

 

[calluna]

Ahh.. the love.


For someone who's obviously not Luther's #1 fan, you sound an awful like him with your talk of excrement.

'Fathers' write excrement, that's what we call it, just as God did. Luther proposed murder of Jews, Calvin effectively committed murder.

 

[calluna]

You say that the Catholic Church insults Jesus with incest (which is absurd)but I could easily say that you insult Jesus by assuming that he could preside in anything(Mary's womb)less than perfect.

You could easily say it, but you would be parroting what the RCC says, and not the Bible.

 

[MrStain]

You could easily say it, but you would be parroting what the RCC says, and not the Bible.

Says the oh-so respectable guy who enters the conversation by throwing around "excrement". Oh wait, that was just you talking out your a...

 

[larry_boy_44]

wow... I don't really agree with the statement that Mary was sinless, although I don't see any reason to say it was impossible...

But, calluna, seriously, what are you talking about?

It's casuistic excrement. If Mary is the second Eve, she must have married the second Adam. So in order to pervert the gospel with its humanism, the RCC insults Jesus with incest.

They just don't think these things through, Catholics. And you Prots haven't got your wits about you, have you? Look out.

You need to look up "type" again... Not every single thing about Mary needs to be the same...

No surprise there. Despicable off-scourings, both of them.

How can you dislike Catholicism, Calvin, & Luther??? I mean, I can see how one could disagree with the churches they founded now... But with the people themselves??? Really? No respect at all???

So Mary was the equivalent of animal hides? That figures!

The tabernacle = hides; However, that poster said Mary is the ark of the covenant, which was made out of gold (it was the thing with the two angels that they sprinkled blood on inside of the tabernacle)

What a legless table this is.

maybe, but you did a horrible job explaining why...

Seriously, less anger, more talking, and you might actually get your point across...

 

[larry_boy_44]

Now, as far as Mary being sinless, I have a few issues:

1. It isn't in the scriptures, so at best its an unnecessary thing...

2. The Bible says that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Jesus isn't an exception to that because He IS God... But Mary being sinless would make that verse false...

unless of course Mary is God, too... But then that's just silly because why wasn't Mary's parents perfect?

3. For that matter, why didn't Mary get original sin from her parents?? If Mary had to be perfect so Jesus didn't have original sin, how did Mary get around that unless her parents were both sinless, too, which means thier parents had to be sinless, which means thier parents had to be sinless, etc. all the way back to Noah (and then Adam) and we KNOW that those men sinned for sure...

So how can that possibly work?

 

[calluna]

Not every single thing about Mary needs to be the same.

What is the same, other than gender?

However, that poster said Mary is the ark of the covenant, which was made out of gold

But the poster made no valid proof of analogy of Mary with the Ark.

 

[larry_boy_44]

What is the same, other than gender?

I'm sure if you had asked that nicely they'd have given you an answer...

But the poster made no valid proof of analogy of Mary with the Ark.

I agree... But the way you responded left them the easy way out of responding to the way you posted, rather than the arguments you made.

If you had posted calmly and without insulting anyone/anything, they would have had to actually answer you rather than just point out how you were insulting them...

a better reply than what you made would have been "How is Mary the same as Eve? In what way other then Gender? And you didn't give any proof or reasoning as to why Mary is representative of the Ark other than claiming the Ark carried the Word of God (it didn't) and that Jesus is the Word of God. What reason is there for that comparison?"

You would have gotten real answers if you had done that...