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Mary is the Queen Mother of the Church whom we can ask to intercede for us.

Discussion in 'Formal Debate Threads' started by MarkRohfrietsch, Dec 10, 2014.

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  1. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    A respectful friendly discussion...

    1. [SIZE=3][URL="http://www.christianforums.com/users/212579/"]Athanasias[/URL] will take the affirmative; [/SIZE][SIZE=3][URL="http://www.christianforums.com/users/358888/"][COLOR=Black]Chris12[/COLOR][/URL] will take the negative position.[/SIZE]
    2. Athanasias will open the discussion and Chris12 will respond.
    3. Since this is a one-on-one discussion rather than a debate the number of rounds will be three each, however, by consent of both participants, if the discussion has run it's course, the discussion may be closed early; if it has not run it's course, the participants may agree to extend it.
    4. Since this is a one-on-one discussion rather than a debate the number of rounds will be three each, however, by consent of both participants, if the discussion has run it's course, the discussion may be closed early; if it has not run it's course, the participants may agree to extend it.
    5. The posts will be alternating.
    6. There will be no time limit between posts.
    7. There will be no maximum length for posts.
    8. All sources will be limited to those discussed, and agreed to, in the proposal thread ( Mary is the Queen Mother of the Church whom we can ask to intercede for us.).
    9. Start date-Very soon.;)
    Peanut Gallery thread can be found here:
    Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Mary is the Queen Mother of the Church whom we
     
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  2. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    I would like to thank my sister in Christ Chris12 for agreeing to dialog on this and for her prayers for both of my sick child and both of us for this dialog. I want to begin with a prayer.

    Heavenly Father, you loved humanity so much even when we fell far away from you that you gave Israel another covenant and when that was broken because of our sinfulness you gave them another and another until your final perfect covenant was revealed when you reached down from heaven and gave us your only begotten Son, the perfect gift to mankind to restore us in you. And in perfect love He gave his life for us and offered himself back to you and sent the Church the Holy Spirit to guide her in all truth and love. In the Spirit of Truth and love then we ask you to bless this dialog and send your same Holy Spirit which mirrors the love between You and your Son and give us each charity when we disagree. Help us to discern Oh Holy Spirit your will for us and strengthen the gifts you given us at baptism. Bless Both of us to be open to hearing one another and help eradicate the pride and prejudice in each ofus and all who read this dialog. Restore the Church again to its original unity in love and help us overcome that which have separated Catholic and Non Catholic Christians for almost 500 years. Come Holy Spirit renew the hearts of your faithful and enkindle within then the fire of your love. We ask this through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

    There is so much to be said here as whole College courses have been taught and several books written on this very subject of the blessed Virgin Mary and her role in Salvation history. I am honored to be able to share with you and all Catholic and non Catholic Christians alike some very simple things on why Catholic hold to Mary’s Queenship and think it’s a great idea to ask for her heavenly intercession. Its especially fitting given that apart from Christ Jesus our Lord historically speaking No one person is honored more in history or art more then the blessed Virgin Mary. Its also fitting given that we just recently celebrated her Immaculate Conception on the 8th (Perhaps another good dialog to have at another time) and will be honoring the many miracles that changed history through her intercession at Guadalupe on the 12th of this month. I have had the privilege also of being taught in Grad school by a former Jew who converted to Catholicism because He and many other Jewish converts have seen the fullness of doctrinal and historical fulfillments of Judaism in the Catholic Church alone. So I am able to bring with me some perspectives that some may not be aware of. So lets starts. I will keep it simple.

    Catholics honor Mary(we call this honor “veneration”) and believe she is Queen of Heaven and can and does pray for the whole world and especially her Sons Church. Because of this we pray to her. What I mean when I say we pray to her is I mean we ask her for her heavenly intercession asking her to pray for us. When Catholics use the term pray in reference to Mary or a saint they do not mean worship. Prayer has numerous meanings. It can mean worship and when it refers to God often as the Lords prayer shows us but it can also mean simply “to ask another human being” as most dictionary’s will confirm.


    It comes from the term prithie or “I pray thee” or “I ask you”. These are cultural things that most Catholics naturally just know and make distinction on. So when a Catholic says they pray to Mary they are asking her for her intercession and not worshipping her as they would a God or Goddess.

    But why ask for her intercession? Well its very Jewish and very simple really for a few reasons. Most people are unaware that Orthodox Jews have traditionally always prayed to or asked for the intercession of their deceased saints or righteous ones known as the Tzaddkim. They do not worship them or pray as they would pray to the Father but they do venerate them give them honor and even visit their grave sites and ask for their intercessions. This does not violate the Jewish understanding of communicating with the dead given in the OT as one Rabbi Explains because they are not seeking knowledge like the witch of endor nor communicating through mediums but rather seeking prayer and intercession because they are one body and if one suffers in the body all suffer and feel that pain even after death.

    Well that is also very Christian. St. Paul has a theology in his writings of the mystical one Body of Christ where if one suffers we all suffer(1 Cor 12:18-20; 24-26). Those in heaven are aware of our sufferings and are aware when we do good things like repent as Jesus tells us:

    “ I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” (Lk 15:7).

    St. John also shows us that those in heaven are aware of our prayers and intercessions and offer them to God in the form of incense (Rev 5:8).

    So this Catholic idea of praying to or asking a saint for his intercession is very very Jewish and ancient but also Christian and biblical and historical. No wander that the early Church very early on began honoring and asking for Mary and the saints intercessions. They were following their Hebrew ancestors and scripture. Here is an article by one Jewish Rabbi explaining this. See how Christian it really is.


    Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf? - Questions & Answers

    Its no wander that many Jews are converting to the Catholic faith when they find Christ.

    Now back to another Jewish idea that is the idea of Queen Mother. Its because we (the Catholic Church) see her( the Blessed Virgin Mary) as the New covenant fulfillment of the Davidic Queen Mother that we honor her. You see. All Davidic Kings had Queen Mothers. Jesus is a King(Rev 19:16) from the line of David(Matt 1:1). Mary is his Mother. Therefore as Jesus is our King Mary is also naturally the New Queen Mother of the Church.

    When you Study scripture you will notice that every Davidic King had a Queen Mother. She was given a special place of honor at the Kings right hand and held influence on the king and kingdom. She shared the Kings reign(Jer 13:18-20). Bible Scholars tell us that the role of the Queen Mother or “Gebirah” in Hebrew (great Lady or Queen) involved interceding or pleading before the King for the people. A great example is found in the book of Kings:

    “Bathshe'ba said, "Very well; I will speak for you to the king."So Bathshe'ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni'jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.Then she said, "I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me." And the king said to her, "Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you." (1 Kings 2:18-20)

    Catholics believe that every New Covenant fulfillment is greater and more real and powerful then their OT type. The Davidic King and his power was just a shadow of the good things to come in the new covenant in the real King from the line of David (Jesus). Likewise so too would the fulfillment of the Queen Mother.

    One prophetic psalms that mentions the Queen Mother that many people pass over is the Christological psalm 45. This psalm is used and admitted by many scripture scholars and pastors to be a prophetic psalm speaking of the Christ the King from Davids line. And it surely does speak of this.

    “You are the fairest of the sons of men;
    grace is poured upon your lips;
    therefore God has blessed you for ever….. In your majesty ride forth victoriously
    for the cause of truth and to defend the right;
    let your right hand teach you dread deeds! Your arrows are sharp
    in the heart of the king's enemies;
    the peoples fall under you. Your divine throne endures for ever and ever.
    Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;
    you love righteousness and hate wickedness.
    Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
    with the oil of gladness above your fellows………(Psalm 45:2,4-7)

    But what many Jewish converts have noticed and the early Church also picked up on was not just the Christological connection to this prophetic psalm but also the Mariological one regarding her as the Queen Mother in prophecy.

    “at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
    Hear, O daughter, consider, and incline your ear;
    forget your people and your father's house; and the king will desire your beauty.
    Since he is your lord, bow to him;”(Psalm 45:9-11)

    Who else would this Psalm be referring to prophetically as the “Queen that stands in Gold at the right hand of the King” (Jesus)? Who else but Mary, the fulfillment of the Davidic Queen Mother. This Psalm is one of the beautiful prophetic psalms read and proclaimed prayerfully at Mass during the feast of the bodily Assumption of Mary(Yet another good Jewish dialog LOL).

    Notice in the new Covenant Mary acts as a Queen Mother interceding for the wedding party and prompting Jesus Christ (our King) to do his first glorious act, and Jesus, who even though it was not his time yet to do so, obeyed her and did his first glorious act changing water into wine. He did not refuse her intercession. (Jn 2:1-11).

    Catholics and the early Church historically also see the Great women of Revelation 12 who gave birth to Jesus the King who rule with a rod of iron to be Mary. It shows that she is crowned with 12 stars(representing the 12 apostles or the Church and 12 tribes of Israel) and is seen there as both Queen of the Church and Mother to all who believe in Christ(Rev 12:17, Jn 19:26-27). Just as Christ is the New King from the Line of David that far surpasses that role, so too she is the new covenant Queen Mother that far surpasses the Davidic Queen Mother in her role. This is why Catholics ask for her intercession. Its powerful. The prayer of the righteous avail much(James 5:16) and who is more righteous then those already in heaven with Jesus away from the distractions of sin? Especially if they have been given an office of Queen Mother to intercede for the Church.

    It should be noted that the early Christian saw this connection too and it was natural for them and the early Church fathers to see this fulfillment. Many of them in their preaching and teaching called her “Lady or Sovereign” much like the Gebirah or Great lady or Queen of the Davidic kingdom. St. Ephrem the Syrian a great doctor and deacon in the 4th century called her “heavenly Queen”, The great early Marian Hymns of the 5th century sang by the early Christians known as the Akathist hymns refer to Mary as “Queen of the heavenly host”. St. John Damascene called her Queen, Ruler, and Lady.


    So in closing in this first post. I hope everyone can see why the early Church and why the Catholic Church today honors Mary as Queen and ask for her prayers and intercessions. I look forward to hearing from you Chris12. God bless you!

    Athanasias
     
  3. Chris12

    Chris12 Newbie

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    Hello Brother Athanasias and of course to everyone and anyone reading my words also! May God provide abundantly each according to your need.


    You opened with prayer, and I would also like to do the same.


    Our Father, Who art in Heaven Hallowed be Thy Name. Your Name is that which I call to garner your notice of my humble self, in YOUR name we ask anything of YOU and receive according to faith in YOUR Promise. Your Name, the Name of Jesus the Christ. As it is written, anything you ask in MY Name it will be done to you. Jesus the Christ is the Name You gave us to ask. And so, according to my faith in Your Promise, and in Your Holy Name, I beseech you, open our eyes so that we may see clearly YOUR Word. Open our ears that we may hear YOUR voice above any other voice. Open our hearts that we may receive YOUR message with gladness and thanksgiving. All Praise belongs to You, for YOU are HOLY. In all things, I pray YOUR will be done.


    In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,


    Amen.


    Let us Begin with my opening post:


    The first point I would like to make is that we follow the example set forth by Christ Himself, as HE was the Messiah for Israel, and later for the chosen of the Gentiles also. But He came first to the lost sheep of Israel.


    As it is written:


    Mathew 10:6
    Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.


    Mathew 15:24
    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."




    Israel is described continually as being lost. This is not to say that Jews are bad people, this was meant as guidance for them, as they had begun to misinterpret and misunderstand scripture and its purpose. Jesus came to free them from the chains they were in. As it is written:


    They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.


    So, Israel was following the letter of the law, yet were still in sin. They had misunderstood God. As it is written:


    Mathew 16:6
    "Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."


    Mathew 16:11
    Why can't you understand that I'm not talking about bread? So again I say, 'Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'"


    This really is saying, don't put all our faith in the scholars of the Jews. They can be wrong, Everything we take from them must be weighed and measured, both against the Spirit of God and against the written words of Jesus the Christ.


    So now we look to what Jesus the Christ said of His beloved Mother.


    Matthew 12:47


    Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."




    Now, this means that according to Jesus HIMSELF, that my rank in the grand scheme of things, being born of the blood and the water and the Holy Spirit, is the same as the rank of the woman who gave birth to HIM. In this verse, HE called me mother. He called you brother. He called your children sister.


    This is our rank with HIM, in HIS eyes, should we do the Will of God in our lives.


    These words are no blasphemy, as they were stated by Jesus the Christ. Now, was Mary a believer? Yes, she was it is why Jesus, being the oldest son, gave her into the care of HIS disciple John rather than the next oldest in HIS family as would have been Jewish custom. This means HE put John as HIS true brother – truer than blood makes.


    I have no doubt in my mind that Mary was chosen by God and I am not demeaning her in any way. She had a purity of heart that other women did not have at that time. But she does the will of the Father. Therefore, all who do the Will of the Father in Heaven is like her in the eyes of Jesus.


    Jesus said in Matthew 13:35
    So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."


    This is one of those hidden things. No one is greater nor is anyone lesser in HIS Kingdom and the humility is, we know we are lesser than anyone. At least I know, I don't guess I know about anyone else, but this does not change what HE spoke, and how HE showed us.


    I am the black sheep, and I am home, in HIS Kingdom, and HE gave me a seat of honor and high esteem by his Grace and His Mercy, gave me all that I did not deserve and did not call one more deserving than another. We have now, true equality in HIM, because HE is inside – HE has made the unequal become equal, he has made the poor man rich beyond measure, and the wise man low.


    I will leave this now as my opening post as I am getting too wordy here, and in subsequent posts, after you speak again, I will begin addressing all the points you made.


    I wish everyone well, and pray that the Holy Spirit grants freely understanding of these words. Amen.


    (PS I have no idea how the font changed here at the bottom.. it was the same in the word document that I originally wrote this in! forgive me that, as I don't know how to fix it!)
     
  4. Athanasias

    Athanasias Regular Member

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    Thank you Chris12 so much for your beautiful opening prayer but also your thoughtful arguments and patience with me on this issue. I hope your having a blessed Advent season so far. It's a real joy to dialog like this.

    This is going to sound weird maybe but I will say it because I think the Holy Spirit would want me to. I think that many non-Catholic Christians have a very good but sometimes limited understanding of this subject of Mary. What I think the Catholic Church can do here with your understanding of Mary as it did mine and others is to broaden it and help you see the bigger picture in scripture and salvation history.

    I do not mean that in any prideful way. Its like the movie the Matrix. Do I take the red or green pill. I can only speak for myself and others that have converted to the Catholic faith. For them seeing the Queenship of Mary through biblical typological fulfillments was like opening up a brand new biblical world to them. They began to see scripture and its message in a bigger way like stepping back and looking at a map they could see much easier the whole of the map. They were amazed at how much sense it made and how historical the idea is. When you look not only to biblical typology and its great connections but also to miraculous and even negative evidences from things like exorcism cases and various miracles such as Lourdes and to history and to Jewish fulfillments all of this makes very logical and strong sense. It's a lot to study I know. But God gives us so much evidence for these things that most people do not even think of looking at or too and yet he wants to reveal more of himself to us through the evidneces we often overlook. I hope in the very least I am showing you some things you may have never seen before.

    I think you have great concerns and good arguments. I can certainly understand what you mean in regards to some Jewish teaching. After all Christ condemned some of their teaching as mere man made traditions. (Mark 7:8). But the bulk of my argument I think does not come from modern Jewish scholarship but rather from Christological and typological fulfillment of Christ the king from the Old covenant to the New, which we do find in the bible and I feel I have shown in my first post. So I am not using the Jewish sources solely as my guide but also scripture itself and sacred apostolic tradition itself which the bible even approves of. (2 Thess 2:15).

    But also it is important to remember that Our Lord Jesus did not condemn all Jewish teachings or traditions and in some areas even held to it(Matt 23). In Fact most of it (such as the OT and even numerous oral traditions) are very relevant to us as Christians as we are truly fulfilled Jews for Christ did not come to abolish the law and prophets but to fulfill them (Matt 5:17) and perfectly He did.

    I do not like to just throw the baby out with the bathwater if you know what I mean. So I think its very healthy to have an appreciation and knowledge of Jewish forshadowments and theology because more often then not they teach us things about our own faith and help us to dig deeper into Gods plan for mankind. This does not mean we trust everything of theirs as they have some wrong stuff obviously, but it also means we ought to look for real synthesis between the 2 theologies because they are related and synthesize greatly . The Understanding of Mary as Queen Mother and her intercession is just one area I believe really shows this great synthesis theologically.

    The New Testament writers(John, Paul, Matthew, and Luke) used Jewish typological fulfillments all the time in their writings as did the early Christians in relation to Jewish and Christian fulfillments. They used them to teach Christians the deeper roots and help them to see the bigger picture. Then I see no reason why we should refrain. So this is why I teach using these things.

    After all Christians are historically and theologically the fulfillment of the Jewish religion. Isn't this the whole reason why the book of Hebrews and Mathew were written ie to show the Jewish connections of our Faith ? This makes sense then doesn't it? I myself, and my Church see a very easy logical, biblical and theological connection, along with many Jewish converts who find Christ and convert to the Catholic faith, and many of the Early Christians both east and west, to Mary being the New Davidic Queen Mother of the Church who we can go to for intercession because she holds that office of Queen Mother.

    What also in my mind give more strength to this and is really cool is this. That this understanding is not just a Catholic thing. It's an early Christian thing in general! The Early Church both East and West saw this connection too as the Fathers show us in their writings and sermons. So I know I am not going crazy or making up a new radical theology like some cults do LOL. They all saw this connection too and it was never considered a heresy. Remember the early Church was quick to spot heresy even Marian heresy and condemn it. But this was never even on the radar as being false.

    Also too Other non-Catholic Christians like High church Anglicans, Some Lutherans, and All Eastern Orthodox Christians also see Mary as the Queen Mother(this comes out in their liturgies) and all of them even feel they can ask for her intercession. So its hard for me personally and logically to look historically, biblically, and theologically and see ¾ of the Christians in History seeing this connection to Mary as Queen and asking for her intercession and myself not see a good connection to this.

    Chris you are definitely on to something here in relation to Matt 12:47. I think here Our Lord is showing us the spiritual and following him in obedience and faith is more important then the physical or being his relative. I think this comes out better in Lukes parallel to this:

    As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Lk 11:27-28)

    Now its true the most important thing is not blood relation as this person thought but rather the most important thing is hearing God s word and keeping it. It is these that will be blessed with eternal life(Matt 25:31-46). And this does not mean Mary is of her own self any better of a person then us. She is a created creature of God just like us. But it is precisely because of her humble obedience in being Gods faithful Handmaid that He raised her up to this and more. For unlike me or anyone and All Generations will call her Blessed(Lk 1:48) but not all generations will call me or even remember my name even if I make it heaven.


    So this office of Queen Mother is honorary and fitting not because of anything she has done apart from Christ grace but rather because its most fitting for Christ the New King from the line of David (Matt 1:1) to honor his Mother as His Queen. Rememeber all Davidic Kings had Queen Mothers and part of their role was one of intercession as the OT shows in 2 Kings. So It would also seem fitting that Mary would be given a role of Queen mother to the whole Church as her role in salvation history would be one of intercession and leading the world to her Son, Jesus Christ, the King of Kings. I mean Jesus is the only King in History who got to create his own Mother. He also fulfilled the law perfectly. One of the commandments is to honor or literally in Hebrew, Your mother and father. Its very fitting that this Davidic King then Glorifies her with a Queenship and Motherhood that far surpasses the Old covenants Queenship and Motherhood. Hence she is as Rev 12 shows her the Queen Mother of the Church.

    You have to understand there is a lot when you study it that just makes sense that Jesus would have done when fulfilling the old covenant. This role is just one of them I think. That is why we see her as Queen and Mother in Rev 12 and that is why she acts like the Queen Mother in Jn 2. Its no coincidence that John wrote both books either as he actually took her into his home after the death of Jesus and new much more about her and he makes many more great Mariological connections to Christ and his fulfillment of Israel in scripture too.

    This is not to day we always have to go to her. Nor does her role as Queen Mother take away from the glory of the King no more then the moon takes away from the glory of the sun. Her Queenship and role as Mother reflects Christ Kingship, love and power in the Church. We always go to God first as that is part of a personal relationship with Him. But its also nice to know we also have a Queen Mother to turn to for intercessions as intercession in the body of Christ is a good thing and her intercessions are powerful.

    Well that is all for now. I look forwarde to hearing from you sometime. Take your time to pray and reflect and then pray again on these things. I know you will. I wait to hear what you think. God bless you my sister!
     
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