Mary in Scripture

[IamAdopted]

You have missed the point again...

But to answer you anyhow.

Yes, Jesus rebuked the people but also said that because they are on the seat of Moses to do what is taught. That is like the old saying "Do as I say but not as I do". Meaning the Pharisses are preaching God's Word but they are not living it.

Also, some of the point I was making to the seat of Moses is that it was a well known fact of God's Faith then even though you have no reference to it in the Old Testament. Yet, Jesus uses this Tradition in his words. Without Tradition one cannot know what the Seat of Moses is.

Do you know your Bible well enough to tell me what the Seat of Moses is and what it represents?

Jesus said to do this because they were the leading government at the time. We are instructed to obey those in authority over us. Paul also instructs us to do this. If our government tells us we have to have insurance we do. We are to obey the government. But He also said do not do as they do. We come from a higher calling and that is Christ. Not the calling of man. They follow tradtions the believers followed Christ. Tradtions are not what we are called to follow. Never were. We were called to live by every word that Proceeds out of the mouth of God. This is why Jesus said not to do as they do. Obey the law but do not become as they are and follow after tradtion.

 

[IamAdopted]

Well you did say there was no mention of the seat of Moses in the NT, and he proved you wrong....



When Jesus speaks of the Seat of Moses, He is reffernig to authority, and the Pharisees and the teacher's were to be obeyed...

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

Why? Because they sat in Moses seat. Kind of like Apostolic succession we have now, only it was Mosesolic succession...

See answer above. When Jesus came He brought us a new covenant. His blood. A Higher calling. When it comes to following the authority placed over us we are told to obey. When it comes to live the way for Christ we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Not tradtion. Jesus nor none of His followers ever sat in the seat of Moses. For we are not called to Lord it over one another but to submit to one another. Our King and Our Lord sits on His throne on the right hand side of the Father. we are from above as Jesus is from above. Our rule is from Christ. Therefore when we are instructed to obey our rulers here on earth because of our obedience to Christ we submit. If it came down to obeying God or the rule of Man we are told to obey God rather than man. This is why Jesus told them to do what they say but not to do as they do. Very simple really.

 

[IamAdopted]

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

Jesus had nothing good to say about these that sat upon the seat of Moses. So repentant do you think He would say anything less now for those whom set theirselves up as leaders and follow tradtion?

 

[Davidnic]

We were called to live by every word that Proceeds out of the mouth of God. This is why Jesus said not to do as they do. Obey the law but do not become as they are and follow after tradtion.

Christ did not say that every word from God would be written in Scripture. And Paul flatly shows that it is not by distinguishing between written and spoken instruction and saying to follow both.

Many of these discussions on Mary have left the topic of Mary and come to a Scripture/Tradition debate.

 

[IamAdopted]

Christ did not say that every word from God would be written in Scripture. And Paul flatly shows that it is not by distinguishing between written and spoken instruction and saying to follow both.

Many of these discussions on Mary have left the topic of Mary and come to a Scripture/Tradition debate.

12Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, "Please read this." And he will say, "I cannot read." 13Then the Lord said,
"Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,

Now which book do you think will be handed to them? God has had men Pen what it is we need to fully equip us. To correct us. Paul even used the scriptures. We are to follow His tradtion right?

As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Davidnic]

Of course Paul used Scripture, no one said he did not.

This (your sections quoted above) is not speaking against Tradition. This is speaking against Tradition without God active in your life. It is speaking against tradition that removes from it the worship of God in any substantial way and replaces it with vain practices. That has nothing to do with Mary or the Catholic or Orthodox teaching on her.

 

[repentant]

See answer above. When Jesus came He brought us a new covenant. His blood. A Higher calling. When it comes to following the authority placed over us we are told to obey. When it comes to live the way for Christ we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Not tradtion. Jesus nor none of His followers ever sat in the seat of Moses. For we are not called to Lord it over one another but to submit to one another. Our King and Our Lord sits on His throne on the right hand side of the Father. we are from above as Jesus is from above. Our rule is from Christ. Therefore when we are instructed to obey our rulers here on earth because of our obedience to Christ we submit. If it came down to obeying God or the rule of Man we are told to obey God rather than man. This is why Jesus told them to do what they say but not to do as they do. Very simple really.

You totally missed the point..

 

[repentant]

Jesus had nothing good to say about these that sat upon the seat of Moses. So repentant do you think He would say anything less now for those whom set theirselves up as leaders and follow tradtion?

Jesus said do as they say, not what the do, because they do not practice what they preach. The only bad thing He said, was they were hypocrites. But He never said do not listen to them, on the contrary, He said obey them...

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus said do as they say, not what the do, because they do not practice what they preach. The only bad thing He said, was they were hypocrites. But He never said do not listen to them, on the contrary, He said obey them...

He gave out 7 woes to them Repentant.. He did not have nice things to say about them at all.

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

I don't think Jesus was blessing them do you?

 

[repentant]

3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach

Did you miss the bolded part?

And I said He called them hypocrites, didn't I..?

Also this leadership was passed on to the Church..

Acts 16:4
As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

 

[IamAdopted]

3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach

Did you miss the bolded part?

And I said He called them hypocrites, didn't I..?

Also this leadership was passed on to the Church..

Acts 16:4
As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

The seat of Moses was the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He now sits on the throne. Not Peter not Paul not any human being but Christ.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The seat of Moses was the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He now sits on the throne. Not Peter not Paul not any human being but Christ.

Jesus has been on that throne since before Adam and until the end of time. At the end of time he will come and judge us all.

But until that time Jesus has given the Keys of the Kingdom to the Church and they are being held by the Vicar of Christ.

This vicar of Christ was Peter at first. This established the Seat of Peter and we have a dynastic succession of holders of the Keys since Peter and that line goes to the Pope today.

Moses seat is no longer used since Christ because Moses Law was not full of Grace and the Truth. Since Jesus we have Infallible teachings and these teachings are protected by the Spirit of Truth throuugh Jesus' church on Earth in Physical and Spiritual form. This is because the bride of Christ is alive.

 

[Benedicta00]

The seat of Moses was the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He now sits on the throne. Not Peter not Paul not any human being but Christ.

Well we don't think they sit on a throne, just in their apostolic seats of authority.

Luke

24And there was also a strife amongst them, which of them should seem to be the greater.

25 And he said to them: The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that have power over them, are called beneficent.

26 But you not so: but he that is the greater among you, let him become as the younger; and he that is the leader, as he that serveth.

27 For which is greater, he that sitteth at table, or he that serveth? Is it not he that sitteth at table? But I am in the midst of you, as he that serveth:

28 And you are they who have continued with me in my temptations:

29 And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom;

30 That you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom: and may sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

This ah, pretty much contradicts you straight up.

There is other parts in scripture too also that shows the apostolic office and succession.

When you put all the parts together, it gives a very distinct picture.

Like, "he who hears you, hears me..."

 

[Benedicta00]

Jesus has been on that throne since before Adam and until the end of time. At the end of time he will come and judge us all.

But until that time Jesus has given the Keys of the Kingdom to the Church and they are being held by the Vicar of Christ.

This vicar of Christ was Peter at first. This established the Seat of Peter and we have a dynastic succession of holders of the Keys since Peter and that line goes to the Pope today.

Moses seat is no longer used since Christ because Moses Law was not full of Grace and the Truth. Since Jesus we have Infallible teachings and these teachings are protected by the Spirit of Truth throuugh Jesus' church on Earth in Physical and Spiritual form. This is because the bride of Christ is alive.

And this pretty much is what he was saying with the most misinterpreted bad exegesis verse that's out there.

Matthew 23

8But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren.

9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ.

11 He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Jesus was pretty much telling them that he fulfills Moses seat and he would be instituting the apostolic seats.

 

[IamAdopted]

Well we don't think they sit on a throne, just in their apostolic seats of authority.

Luke



This ah, pretty much contradicts you straight up.

There is other parts in scripture too also that shows the apostolic office and succession.

When you put all the parts together, it gives a very distinct picture.

Like, "he who hears you, hears me..."

How does this prove what you said? The throne that we sit in is in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not here on earth. His Kingdom is not of this earth. Never has been. His is of Heaven.

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus has been on that throne since before Adam and until the end of time. At the end of time he will come and judge us all.

But until that time Jesus has given the Keys of the Kingdom to the Church and they are being held by the Vicar of Christ.

This vicar of Christ was Peter at first. This established the Seat of Peter and we have a dynastic succession of holders of the Keys since Peter and that line goes to the Pope today.

Moses seat is no longer used since Christ because Moses Law was not full of Grace and the Truth. Since Jesus we have Infallible teachings and these teachings are protected by the Spirit of Truth throuugh Jesus' church on Earth in Physical and Spiritual form. This is because the bride of Christ is alive.

The Keys to the Kingdom of God are what? The preaching of the Gospel of Christ. For this is how We enter into the Kingdom of Heaven is by believing In Christ. Jesus gave these Keys to more than just Peter. He gave them to the Apostles. Who preached and wrote the Gospel we have today. Therefore unless the gospel is preached who will believe and be saved? This is the Keys. There is no Vicar of Christ. For He is with us. He has never left us. We as Christians are His ambassadors. To go and tell His message of salvation. There is only one Who sits in rulership and that is Christ. He is the head of His Church and no one else is. Above Christ is God the Father. The Holy Spirit is our comforter and teacher of the word of God. He lives in each of Gods Children. He has put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit

 

[repentant]

The seat of Moses, and Hebrews 13:17 is reference to the authority of those appointed by God to lead the people. The seat of Moses, refer's to the seat of the Chief Priests, established by God..and Hebrews refer's to the Elder's of the Church appointed by the Apostles to lead the people and for them to obey....the Apostles, knowing they would not live forever, needed to appoint people to take their place, and also because the Church was spreading, they needed leader's to lead the people so they will not go astray..

 

[repentant]

The Keys to the Kingdom of God are what? The preaching of the Gospel of Christ. For this is how We enter into the Kingdom of Heaven is by believing In Christ. Jesus gave these Keys to more than just Peter. He gave them to the Apostles. Who preached and wrote the Gospel we have today. Therefore unless the gospel is preached who will believe and be saved? This is the Keys. There is no Vicar of Christ. For He is with us. He has never left us. We as Christians are His ambassadors. To go and tell His message of salvation. There is only one Who sits in rulership and that is Christ. He is the head of His Church and no one else is. Above Christ is God the Father. The Holy Spirit is our comforter and teacher of the word of God. He lives in each of Gods Children. He has put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit

ALELLULIA....I actually agree with you for once..

 

[Benedicta00]

How does this prove what you said? The throne that we sit in is in the Kingdom of Heaven. Not here on earth. His Kingdom is not of this earth. Never has been. His is of Heaven.

That's not what Jesus said...

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you... "

And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom;

30 That you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom: and may sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[IamAdopted]

That's not what Jesus said...

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you... "

He sent the Apostles to go and preach the Good news. So that sinners could be reconciled back to God. The Apostles were the abassadors for Christ. Sent ones. The Kingdom that saints will be gathered around to judge the 12 tribes is In His heavenly Kingdom.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

Here we see why they were sent. Not as rulers but as Apostles.