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Really easy for you to find a way around the Scripture and how "all power" being requested for the Colossians has to mean something completely different than what the author of this prayer means by "all power" being given to Mary.-snip-
She has not been given "all power" as an equal to God, whose omnipotence is the source of all power and is eternal. Do you see it saying that? Otherwise, you have no case to make there.That's the point. You asked for where it said Mary was omnipotent. You answered it. She's been given "all power", they think.
She's also omnipresent, being able to hear millions of prayers simultaneously. Gotta be both, don'cha think?
She has not been given "all power" as an equal to God, whose omnipotence is the source of all power and is eternal. Do you see it saying that? Otherwise, you have no case to make there.
Just so we're clear, the only official Catholic websites I'm aware of are the Vatican and the US Conference of Catholic bishops. If you want to find 'issues', I'd say start there.The following are excerpts from Roman Catholic prayers, according to the website www .catholic.org
Okay. The prayer has it wrong. No problem. We agree.
- "Lady and Mistress, to whom all power has been given in Heaven and earth," from Affectuate Salutations to Mary.
So, the new question is, since we agree the description does not identify Mary correctly, what does this mean about to whom the praryer is directed? Not to Mary. So, to nothing?
I think there a few points that needed to be added to this discussion. First is that the Jeremiah verses are out of context--they concern by my understanding the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, a goddess of fertility, that followers offered cakes shaped like stars to.
Next, Catholism 101 for those who are not aware. We do not treat Mary as God or adore Mary, that is only reserved for God alone. We do however, ask Mary to intercede for us. This does not contradict our belief that there is only one mediator between God and man, our Lord Jesus Christ. Everything goes through Mary to Jesus and anything we receive from Mary comes from Jesus. If I ask you to pray for me will you refuse on the basis that their is only one mediator between God and man--and you are not it? And if your prayers for me are answered, does that mean it came from you--or Jesus? I have problems understanding why someone experiencing everlasting life and in union with the Holy Trinity would be so much different from someone on Earth in their ability and desire to pray for us. James 5:16 tells us that the prayers of righteous person availth much, is there anymore righteous than those united with Jesus in Heaven?
Let us also consider other Bible with reference to Mary: Should we not pray as the Psalms as the KJV puts it "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. O Lord, truly I am thy servant; and the son of thine handmaid; thou hast loosed my bonds."(Ps 116:15-16).
In John 19 we see John is not referred to as John, but the beloved disciple, and Jesus gives his mother to him, and him to His mother. In Rev 12 we need to look also at this woman who gave birth to Christ, and in verse 17 we find that she is the mother of others that the devil wages war against who keep the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. She is also our mother. In Rev 12:1-2 we see that in Heaven she is present with a crown of 12 stars, and clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet. Is that promised to us also, or is this a special honor God bestows on Mary? Would Jesus not honor His mother and father? Should we degrade our spiritual mother and talk evil about her? What does it say for us if Mary who God said through the angel Gabriel is "highly favored" (Lk1:28, KJV),and whom God has done great things for (Lk 1:49) can carry Jesus physically inside of her and physically live with Him all those years and love him only as a mother can love a child, and still be a reched person--what chance do we have? It doesn't make sense to me. Should we really work on trying to rid out what the Bible says through Mary's canticle that "all generations will call me blessed" (Lk 1:48).
Also, let us not forget the detail that God had in building the Ark of the Convenant, the dwelling place of God among his people. Why would God put so much detail in that Ark, but for Mary not want the same detail for his dwelling place for 9 months? And does Lk 6:43-44 have some special exemption to Mary? If the "tree is know by it's fruit" then shouldn't Mary be know for the tree she was born as, as the mother of Jesus? Should we not love Mary for nothing more than the way she loved Jesus prior to His horrible Passion.
Regardless of your faith, I believe everyone who strives to live a Christian life can see the wisdom in an old saying of the Catholic Church, which is: Love Jesus as Mary loved Jesus, and love Mary as Jesus loved Mary.
The two tablets are scriptural. The rest is not dogma, but as I said, commentary.Scripture reference please that indicates the commandments were equally divided between the two tablets and had that kind of correspondence to each other? Or that the way we honor our parents is by honoring ourselves?
How does it contradict it?Christ indicates that at least one way we honor our parents is providing financial support if needed. How does that fit into this theory?
Does Scripture maintain that all power has been given to Mary??!!Is Paul praying for the Colossians to become omnipotent?
Colossians 1:11 "May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy".
Paul is praying for the Colossians to be given "all power". And who is the giver? God -- who has "eternal power" (Romans 1:20) which is the theological view of what omnipotence means in relation to God. Is he praying for them to become omnipotent in place of or along with God? Now that would be a silly thought, wouldn't it?
This prayer is not claiming God's omnipotence for Mary. Please note it refers not to power that Mary is the cause or source of, but rather to the power that "has been given" to her. God is the source of the power that Mary has received. Just as Scripture refers to our sharing his divine power (2 Cor 10:4), and Stephen is referred to as "full of power" (Acts 6:8).
So Paul can pray for "all power" to be given to the Colossians, and Scripture can say that we share in God's divine power, and Stephen can be referred to as "full of" power, but if Catholics refer that "all power" has been given to Mary, somehow that places Mary as equal to God's omnipotence.
Do you see how silly these accusations can sound when they are placed in the context of Scripture and legitimate Catholic teaching?
It would only contradict it if your are limiting what the commandment to honor your parents means is to honor yourself and the life you live. I would not disagree that a life well lived brings honor to one's parents. I would only disagree if that was the focus to the exclusion of other aspects of honoring one's parents.The two tablets are scriptural. The rest is not dogma, but as I said, commentary.
The division is not according to Catholic Tradition, of course, but it is according to traditional Jewish division, with the first half of the commandments centred on Creator, and the last half on the mankind.
Since any division that we give to make the list of ten is arbitrary, to make it as Biblical as possible, all we can note with certainty is that the first section of the Biblical passages that make up our Ten centre on God and Creator, the last half centers on us, to not murder, to not cheat on our spouses, to not lie, or covet.
My reading of the Bible is not dogmatic though, rather anti-dogmatic in fact. It is just an interesting idea to note how the first half relates to the second half. I would think that it would be equally interesting to Protestants, Catholics or Jews actually, since this is a teaching that we share, and a tradition that we share too.
How does it contradict it?
No. My use of Scripture was to simply show how the term "all power" and a prayer request to receive "all power" does not by necessity imply omnipotence as we know God to be omnipotent.Does Scripture maintain that all power has been given to Mary??!!
Standing Up,
Can you provide us with Church teachings that show your interpretations of those words are correct as opposed to the words of narnia59 who provides quite a few examples? Can you show us that you are not just putting your interpretation, which I might add are quite wrong and deemed heretical by the Church, on the words presented?
Also, can you please show us where the Church says Mary will be given all power "as equal to God" (your words, not the words of the Church)? -snip-
Does Scripture maintain that all power has been given to Mary??!!
No. -snip
We are not Jesus Mother that loved Him with her mothers heart for a Child. I love Christ not with a motherly love but with a love of awe and adoration. For He alone is my Savior and He alone paid the penalty for my Sin. For He alone is worhthy of being exalted above the earth. All others are human beings saved by the very same grace that saved me. So there fore I stand united with them through the Blood of Christ and His wonderful Spirit.MamaZ,
I'll try to answer your questions in two parts:
"Now how can I love a sister in the Lord after she is clothed in her heavenly home? I can't see her or hear her. I cannot converse with her. She needs nothing."
The problem I think you may have here is your looking at this from a purely Earthly experience of love--you can't see her with your eyes, you can't hear her with your ears, you can't physcially stand in a room and touch her physical hand and converse with her. But can you do the same with God in a purely phycial sense either? Does He need anything? Does that mean you can't love Him? We all one body as Jn 17:23 tells us and that unity cannot be seperated from death.
I can Converse with God my Father for He is omnipresent. I have His written scriptures to feed my Spirit. I have His very Own Spirit inside of me giving me His power to live the life I have been called to Live. Through Christ I am one with them. Mary on the other Hand was a human being born under the Law and born again from the very Son she bore. For she too had to come through Christ to get to the Father. The unity that we share is not conversing with those clothed in their heavenly Home but with The blood of Christ and of being born again.
By love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, I mean love Jesus with the greatest love we have here on Earth as an example. Mary was the mother of Jesus, Joseph was a step-father, although a wonderful one at that. But Mary loved Jesus as a parent loves a child. What parent would not give their life for their child? How many examples do we have of parents sacraficing all they have for their children? We should allow Jesus to grow in us as He grew in Mary's womb, we should loving give up riches of the world for Jesus as many mothers do for their children today, we should try to spend as much time with Jesus never having enough time to spend with Him as all mothers do today, especially working mothers. All of our work should be for Jesus as the work we do today we do to provide for our children. We should feel Mary's sorrow when we meditate on the Passion and all the pain and suffering Jesus went through, and we should experience Mary's joy when we meditate on the Ressurection. What could be worse than seeing your own son bloody, carring a heavy cross and then watching him die a slow anguish death? We should love Jesus with that most tenderly love of a first time mother holding her child for the first time, filled with awe, and the inner knowledge that my life is changing.
Mary is not the mother of all though. If there were a mother of All it would be Eve the first woman ever created.
I understand that. But Mary has nothing to do with that. For the Father is not married to Mary. Because we are adopted into the Family of God we cry out Abba Father. But we are birthed by His Spirit. I have not read anywhere where we cry out abba mother.There is the idea that we are the brothers and sisters of Christ, adopted by him unto the father.
I understand that. But Mary has nothing to do with that. For the Father is not married to Mary. Because we are adopted into the Family of God we cry out Abba Father. But we are birthed by His Spirit. I have not read anywhere where we cry out abba mother.
I understand that. But Mary has nothing to do with that. For the Father is not married to Mary. Because we are adopted into the Family of God we cry out Abba Father. But we are birthed by His Spirit. I have not read anywhere where we cry out abba mother.
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