Mary and Joseph

[Benedicta00]

are you under the impression that everything that Jesus prayed for came true?

nor did Jesus say to Peter "I will build a top heavy self justifying organization, who views all others who profess Christ as Lord as something less than them." We can both play the ad hominem game, if you wish.

are you forgetting the EO RCC Shism? that came well before the 16th century.

Tell me, Uphill, when in the body of Christ has there been anything but disunity and division and strife since sola scripture became a reality in the 16th century?

I thought sola scripture was the truth? I thought freedom form Rome was the answer? Well explain then why you are all scatted and divided all the way from the Lutherans to the SDA?

Tell me since sola scripture frees you all in truth, how come you all are not one body in the same truth but a lose body instead who all have different opinions?

I'm sorry, but I thought sola scripture was the answer to Jesus' prayers, and that the gates will never prevail against sola scripture believers, i guess I was wrong.

 

[Benedicta00]

Jesus prayed that we would all become one as He and His father were one. Doing the Fathers will and taking Him at His word. Being united to Christ through the Holy Spirit. It isn't the sola scriptura that has the strife coming in. For those of us whom believe in the sola scriptura, question the added traditions that don't line up with the scripture. Adding to the scriptures tradtions of men such as Mary being co redemtix and the saints hearing and answering prayers.. These are not in sola scriptura. Neither is purgatory or sacraments.. This is where the strife comes in.. To be unified we have to have something to be unified in..That would be Gods word.. For it hasn't changed. It will not change. For God breathed the scripture and He does not change. Tradition on down the line has changed.. Therefore making us question these traditions. Some of these traditions not even brought to light until after 300 Ad but yet scripture was before Christ even came.. The Apostles penned the scriptures after the Death of Christ..

Now lest get back on topic... Matthew 16, and early world history contrdicts you.

 

[IamAdopted]

No actually scripture backs up what we are saying. It is in the confession that Peter made that hell will not prevail against. Peter failed when He denied Christ three times. The third time He even cursed.. So stating that Peter is the rock is a stretch of Scripture.. Why would Chirst build His church on a fallable man? He wouldn't. He would though on the statement Peter made for the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Son of God..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No actually scripture backs up what we are saying. It is in the confession that Peter made that hell will not prevail against. Peter failed when He denied Christ three times. The third time He even cursed.. So stating that Peter is the rock is a stretch of Scripture.. Why would Chirst build His church on a fallable man? He wouldn't. He would though on the statement Peter made for the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Son of God..

How very Orthodox.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Tell me, Uphill, when in the body of Christ has there been anything but disunity and division and strife since sola scripture became a reality in the 16th century?

I thought sola scripture was the truth? I thought freedom form Rome was the answer? Well explain then why you are all scatted and divided all the way from the Lutherans to the SDA?

Tell me since sola scripture frees you all in truth, how come you all are not one body in the same truth but a lose body instead who all have different opinions?

I'm sorry, but I thought sola scripture was the answer to Jesus' prayers, and that the gates will never prevail against sola scripture believers, i guess I was wrong.

you completely ignored what I posted, and decided to rant. Fine, that's your right.

 

[Benedicta00]

you completely ignored what I posted, and decided to rant. Fine, that's your right.

I admit- I'm probably going for the jugular...

But I want you to answer this, since sola scripture came into the picture when have we had unity?

Something that was supposed to unite us all in truth, didn't.

Something that is supposed to lead us all to truth, hasn't.

The body of Christ is no more better for having been freed from big, bad, mean Rome. The body of Christ scatted in a thousand different directions since that happened.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I admit- I'm probably going for the jugular...

But I want you to answer this, since sola scripture came into the picture when have we had unity?

Something that was supposed to unite us all in truth, didn't.

Something that is supposed to lead us all to truth, hasn't.

The body of Christ is no more better for having been freed from big, bad, mean Rome. The body of Christ scatted in a thousand different directions since that happened.

there was not unity BEFORE this. I've indicated that.

and no, what we have now is wrong too... and I daresay will not be healed until Christ returns and puts us all back in line.

 

[Benedicta00]

No actually scripture backs up what we are saying. It is in the confession that Peter made that hell will not prevail against. Peter failed when He denied Christ three times. The third time He even cursed.. So stating that Peter is the rock is a stretch of Scripture.. Why would Chirst build His church on a fallable man? He wouldn't. He would though on the statement Peter made for the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Son of God..

Because there isn't anyone else but sinful men to build it on.

But you can't see the contradiction? If Christ was not building a church- an assembly of believers all united in ONE faith on Peter who is the head of the congregation, and he was building a lose body who is to be lead by no one but the bible only- then why are you all not one but many?

Wouldn't the Holy Spirit lead you all to interpret the same things?

And besides, in John Jesus gave Peter a penance for denying him and went on to have him feed Christ's sheep.

Who are His sheep? yes Peter was given the job of feeding us.

So no one could possibly interpret Matthew as Jesus building his assembly on Peter's confession, but on the man himself.

And it stands to reason, that if Jesus is the one who built this Church on Peter then it is His Church and it was built by Him with His divine hands and He is the head and as the head of His Church, the Church is always under his sovereign control. So Peter need not be perfect. Christ is in control.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

there was not unity BEFORE this. I've indicated that.

and no, what we have now is wrong too... and I daresay will not be healed until Christ returns and puts us all back in line.

I tend to look at this from the opposite end of the scope.

I see unity within The Orthodox Church, anything outside it, of course, would not be unified... but then, I see those as being "outside" the earthly Chuch. That is not to say that I doubt their salvation, nor do I doubt their membership in the Heavenly Church just because they are outside the earthly Church.


Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

I tend to look at this from the opposite end of the scope.

I see unity within The Orthodox Church, anything outside it, of course, would not be unified... but then, I see those as being "outside" the earthly Chuch. That is not to say that I doubt their salvation, nor do I doubt their membership in the Heavenly Church just because they are outside the earthly Church.


Forgive me...

then it boils down to if it is irrelevant that you are in the earthly church or not (be it RCC or Orthodox, as both claim this role) to salvation, what is the issue that we are outside of it? I am starting to wonder why it even matters.

 

[Benedicta00]

there was not unity BEFORE this. I've indicated that.

and no, what we have now is wrong too... and I daresay will not be healed until Christ returns and puts us all back in line.

You are so right... so tell me again what purpose was sola scripture to serve?

And tell me, what purpose has it actually served in fulfilling Jesus' prayer? "May they all be one..."

what purpose has it served in bringing us all together as one big happy Christian family?

I'll tell you... NONE. Zero, Zip, Notta, Zilch.

 

[Benedicta00]

I tend to look at this from the opposite end of the scope.

I see unity within The Orthodox Church, anything outside it, of course, would not be unified... but then, I see those as being "outside" the earthly Chuch. That is not to say that I doubt their salvation, nor do I doubt their membership in the Heavenly Church just because they are outside the earthly Church.


Forgive me...

and replace Orthodox with Catholic and I say the same thing.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

then it boils down to if it is irrelevant that you are in the earthly church or not (be it RCC or Orthodox, as both claim this role) to salvation, what is the issue that we are outside of it? I am starting to wonder why it even matters.

It depends on how close you desire to come in contact with ancient Christianity.

The Orthodox Church has never said that those outside the earthly Church will not be saved.... because that is NOT what we believe.

What does it matter to your salvation? I can't answer that, because I don't know the condition of your salvation, neither do I know the condition of mine.

What motivation would The Orthodox Church have in lying to you? They don't need your money. What is it that they gain? Honestly they only desire to hold to the truths that have been passed down by the Apostles without change to those core beliefs.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

It depends on how close you desire to come in contact with ancient Christianity.

I don't desire contact with ancient Christianity. I desire contact with Christ.

The Orthodox Church has never said that those outside the earthly Church will not be saved.... because that is NOT what we believe.

cool, I know that.

What does it matter to your salvation? I can't answer that, because I don't know the condition of your salvation, neither do I know the condition of mine.

ah, so you believe that you can still end up in hell, given you died right now?

What motivation would The Orthodox Church have in lying to you? They don't need your money. What is it that they gain? Honestly they only desire to hold to the truths that have been passed down by the Apostles without change to those core beliefs.

Forgive me...

I never believed that the Orthodox Church is lying. They sincerely believe what they say.
whether or not they are CORRECT is the issue, not their lack of honesty!

I look at it like this. We KNOW man cannot acheive perfection. He will make mistakes, pretty much in every action he takes. Yet for some reason, we are to believe that a succession of men for 2000 years has NEVER let one iota of error slip in to teachings, and we are led to believe that the passage that states that Hell will not prevail of the Children of God, that we are promised any such thing. Personally, anyone who claims to have it 100% right is immediately suspect, as I know that this si something we cannot acheive.

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't desire contact with ancient Christianity. I desire contact with Christ.

so you think something was wrong since day one? Wow... the gates prevailed early then.

 

[Uphill Battle]

so you think something was wrong since day one? Wow... the gates prevailed early then.

where did I say that?

 

[Benedicta00]

ah, so you believe that you can still end up in hell, given you died right now?

I do... least I don't abandon the means of salvation and grace, which is my faith in Jesus. I know I would end in hell.

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't desire contact with ancient Christianity. I desire contact with Christ.

You know ancient Christianity is the faith of the EC, whose father's laid their own lives down for this faith, This is what you say you want no contact with...?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I don't desire contact with ancient Christianity. I desire contact with Christ.

cool, I know that.

ah, so you believe that you can still end up in hell, given you died right now?

I never believed that the Orthodox Church is lying. They sincerely believe what they say.
whether or not they are CORRECT is the issue, not their lack of honesty!

I look at it like this. We KNOW man cannot acheive perfection. He will make mistakes, pretty much in every action he takes. Yet for some reason, we are to believe that a succession of men for 2000 years has NEVER let one iota of error slip in to teachings, and we are led to believe that the passage that states that Hell will not prevail of the Children of God, that we are promised any such thing. Personally, anyone who claims to have it 100% right is immediately suspect, as I know that this si something we cannot acheive.

Yes, I could go to hell, and believe me, I would diserve it.

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

I do not doubt that others outside the earthly Church have the possibility of running the good race to the end and obtaining salvation.

I do believe that Christ left us with people in charge and a method for dealing with them when they step out of line.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

You know ancient Christianity is the faith of the EC, whose father's laid their own lives down for this faith, This is what you say you want no contact with...?

you misunderstand. My goal is not doing things like the ancient Christians. My goal is not acting like them. My goal is Christ, not the early Christians.