Mary and Joseph

Latreia · Feb 27, 2007

OrthodoxyUSA said:
You have the freedom to reject these teachings. The free will that was given by God.

It is up to each of us individually to come to grips with our history.

Forgive me...

Many thanks for those wonderful posts, I found much pleasure in reading all about Joseph and his life, according to your faith.

However, I find it edifying, more to understand, not merely "things" to reject or adhere to in my own faith. All are wisdom of some sort, although I do not know in exactly what way for now.

Knowledge is pleasant, Truth is joy, and Wisdom is attainable. These three are received by our own attitudes, which we must ensure to be receptive, rather than negative and defensive.

After all, learning to listen to God takes practice.

ArnautDaniel · Feb 27, 2007

Latreia said:
Was this term for crimes against children really necessary in association with Christmas? Were such expressions full of immoral insinnuations called for?

Why post thoughts that are ugly and unpleasant in conjunction with a sacred religion?

Well it just means that if we made a realistic movie about the events, it would make most people uncomfortable.

Besides given some of the nonsense going around about non-christian religions among christians, I think it is good for christians to take a good hard look at themselves.

Latreia · Feb 27, 2007

ArnautDaniel said:
Well it just means that if we made a realistic movie about the events, it would make most people uncomfortable.

Besides given some of the nonsense going around about non-christian religions among christians, I think it is good for christians to take a good hard look at themselves.

There is no strong case that can justify ugliness and disrespect.

Christians have been taking good hard looks at themselves, have been introspective for hundreds of years. Thousands of Christians, world-wide, examine their heart and souls every single day.

Perhaps you are unaware of that, and perhaps of many other things as well about Christians.

ArnautDaniel · Feb 27, 2007

Latreia said:
There is no strong case that can justify ugliness and disrespect.

Christians have been taking good hard looks at themselves, have been introspective for hundreds of years. Thousands of Christians, world-wide, examine their heart and souls every single day.

Perhaps you are unaware of that, and perhaps of many other things as well about Christians.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

I'd contend yours applies to an exceptional minority and not the majority of Christians.

And reality is reality, and there is no need to mollify things with pretty words ->

If Mary and Joseph were around today in the US they'd be engaged in pedophilia.

A true statement.

Latreia · Feb 27, 2007

ArnautDaniel said:
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

I'd contend yours applies to an exceptional minority and not the majority of Christians.

And reality is reality, and there is no need to mollify things with pretty words ->

If Mary and Joseph were around today in the US they'd be engaged in pedophilia.

A true statement.

So there you are. Leaving no doubt unturned.

The most sacred couple of the Christian faith.

Forgive, oh Lord, our errors most base and thankless.

HisBelovedMelody · Feb 27, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Dear sister in the Lord. I think you misread my post.. Tee hee.. I said that tradtions have been proven wrong before as they will be proven wrong again... LOL...

right I was agreeing...although it wasn't very nice of me to be snide. My apology.

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2007

Latreia said:
So there you are. Leaving no doubt unturned.

The most sacred couple of the Christian faith.

Forgive, oh Lord, our errors most base and thankless.

Latreia, he's contrasting 1st century practice with 21st century western law.

What we consider children were regularly married, and had children, in 1st century.

Typically, the man was a good degree older than the woman in these instances.

He is not disrespecting Mary and Joseph to state this.

ScottBot · Feb 27, 2007

ArnautDaniel said:
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

I'd contend yours applies to an exceptional minority and not the majority of Christians.

And reality is reality, and there is no need to mollify things with pretty words ->

If Mary and Joseph were around today in the US they'd be engaged in pedophilia.

A true statement.

If, in fact, Joseph and Mary ever had relations. The majority of Christians believe that Mary and Joseph never did so, and that Joseph was betrothed to Mary to be her guardian, not her lover.

HisBelovedMelody · Feb 27, 2007

Amor Vincit Omnia said:
If, in fact, Joseph and Mary ever had relations. The majority of Christians believe that Mary and Joseph never did so, and that Joseph was betrothed to Mary to be her guardian, not her lover.

No, i wouldn't say majority. I for one do NOT believe what you just stated. I believe what the Word says, that Joseph got up from his sleep took Mary as his WIFE...and yes, they did go on to have other children.

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2007

HisBelovedMelody said:
No, i wouldn't say majority. I for one do NOT believe what you just stated. I believe what the Word says, that Joseph got up from his sleep took Mary as his WIFE...and yes, they did go on to have other children.

he is right, in the fact that the Majority of Christians are a combination of Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox.

However, appealling to Majority doesn't make it so, I'm afraid.

There is good evidence that MANY Christians through the ages rejected PV.

ScottBot · Feb 27, 2007

HisBelovedMelody said:
No, i wouldn't say majority. I for one do NOT believe what you just stated. I believe what the Word says, that Joseph got up from his sleep took Mary as his WIFE...and yes, they did go on to have other children.

I meant majority because out the the 2.1 billion Christians, 1.1 Catholics, about 300 Million Orthodox and a good portion of the 200 million members of the Anglican communion believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. The belief that Mary and Joseph had relations and childred is almost entirely an American Protestant phenomenon.

ScottBot · Feb 27, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
he is right, in the fact that the Majority of Christians are a combination of Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox.

However, appealling to Majority doesn't make it so, I'm afraid.

There is good evidence that MANY Christians through the ages rejected PV.

Okay, if you don't want to appeal to majority, how about historicity.....The catholic and Orthodox, who make up the majority of Christianity, can also trace their belief in the perpetual virginity straight to their apostolic origins. That would pretty much makes belief in the existance of Mary and Joseph's sex life a thing of modern innovation.

OrthodoxyUSA · Feb 27, 2007

HisBelovedMelody said:
No, i wouldn't say majority. I for one do NOT believe what you just stated. I believe what the Word says, that Joseph got up from his sleep took Mary as his WIFE...and yes, they did go on to have other children.

However you are not counting all the Christians who have gone before you. Yes, that majority.

You are absolutely WRONG.

Forgive me...

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2007

Amor Vincit Omnia said:
Okay, if you don't want to appeal to majority, how about historicity.....The catholic and Orthodox, who make up the majority of Christianity, can also trace their belief in the perpetual virginity straight to their apostolic origins. That would pretty much makes belief in the existance of Mary and Joseph's sex life a thing of modern innovation.

they can trace it back to approximately 300 AD, yes.

Neither does that make the argument neccessarily true.

ScottBot · Feb 27, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
they can trace it back to approximately 300 AD, yes.

Neither does that make the argument neccessarily true.

It doesn't make it necessarily wrong, either.

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2007

Amor Vincit Omnia said:
It doesn't make it necessarily wrong, either.

I wholeheartedly agree, Bro.

I've just seen the apologetic offered over and over that it has "always been believed" and that in itself is just reason to consider it true.

ScottBot · Feb 27, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
I wholeheartedly agree, Bro.

I've just seen the apologetic offered over and over that it has "always been believed" and that in itself is just reason to consider it true.

True, however, no COMPELLING case for dismissing the traditional belief in Mary's continuing virginity has ever been put forth, taking into account Scripture, and the proper cultural, historical, and linguistic context.

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2007

Amor Vincit Omnia said:
True, however, no COMPELLING case for dismissing the traditional belief in Mary's continuing virginity has ever been put forth, taking into account Scripture, and the proper cultural, historical, and linguistic context.

you think?

Straighforward Exegeis of all the passages regarding the "Brothers and Sisters" of Christ leads one to believe they are exactly that, when examined apart from Institutional teachings.

That, coupled with the complete absence of any such teaching until approximately 300 AD, is IMHO quite compelling. (also, the various references AFTER that that refute PV.

ScottBot · Feb 27, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
you think?

Straighforward Exegeis of all the passages regarding the "Brothers and Sisters" of Christ leads one to believe they are exactly that, when examined apart from Institutional teachings.

That, coupled with the complete absence of any such teaching until approximately 300 AD, is IMHO quite compelling. (also, the various references AFTER that that refute PV.

Like I said, with the PROPER historical, cultural, and linguistic understanding of Scripture.

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2007

Amor Vincit Omnia said:
Like I said, with the PROPER historical, cultural, and linguistic understanding of Scripture.

"proper" meaning "RCC approved?"

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