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Mary and Joseph
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IamAdopted
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ArnautDaniel
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Early traditions make Joseph quite a bit older than Mary, even to the point of being embarassed by the age difference.
Mary would have been about 13. An older Joseph would be around 40. Even if Joseph were a more typical age, he'd be in his mid to late 20's.
Pedophilia doesn't make for comfortable Christmas pageants for moderns though.
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The concept that a 13-year-old is a child is a modern one. Who doesn't have stories of family members as early as 2 or 3 generations ago who married in their early teens?
In the past, age 13 was the age of adulthood and in most societies, this is still the case. In particular in the United States, we baby our children and let them go well into their 20's taking no responsibility for themselves.
While an age difference would have been noticeable, she would never have been considered a child at that age. Not 2000 years ago, not even 100 years ago.
my .02
-Michael
In the past, age 13 was the age of adulthood and in most societies, this is still the case. In particular in the United States, we baby our children and let them go well into their 20's taking no responsibility for themselves.
While an age difference would have been noticeable, she would never have been considered a child at that age. Not 2000 years ago, not even 100 years ago.
my .02
-Michael
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ArnautDaniel
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Well this is one of those places where historical accuracy comes into conflict with contemporary mores.
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ArnautDaniel
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Using the Bible alone, we are assuming she was betrothed to Joseph at what was considered the standard age for betrothal in that region and time, so around 13.
Going to non-biblical sources we can get a bit more backup.
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Mind if I just make myself comfortable? We'll both wait for this one.
Yoo hoo, heah we are, over here....
Yeah, ah'm from the South you all....
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Nice remarks about the Blessed Mother. Protestants love Mary, too. As long as you aren't being offensive.
But didn't I see you over amongst the atheists proving there is no God?
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32176210&postcount=5
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ArnautDaniel
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You either caught me contending that rational arguments for the existence of God are unsound, or contending that introducting God as a scientific postulate is unsound.
Neither of those constitutes an argument that "there is no God".
My point here was only that the culture 2000 years ago was rather different than the present , and what was normal then can be unacceptable in 21st century 1st world nations.
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Math...
Joseph died at 110 the year before Christ's public ministy began.
110-30 = 80
Forgive me...
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HisBelovedMelody
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again, HOW do you know that?? There is no biblical proof of that...
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IamAdopted
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And how do you know he died? For Mary did have other children.. It is even written in prophecy...He must have been one vigorous elderly man...
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Surely there could be room for some miscalculation in this matter? I rely on 60 year-old common sense.
That little trek to Bethlehem could have proven fatal to an 80 year old man. 110 seems a bit ancient for that time and place in history.
Life was rough, even for a carpenter. And perhaps a bit more details about the ages of young brides then?
I've posted it before and I'll post it again:
"Mathematics are rather useless in matters of faith."
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Was this term for crimes against children really necessary in association with Christmas? Were such expressions full of immoral insinnuations called for?
Why post thoughts that are ugly and unpleasant in conjunction with a sacred religion?
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Mary had no other children, Joseph did, from his previous (deceased) wife.
Forgive me...
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Surely there could be room for some miscalculation in this matter? I rely on 60 year-old common sense.
That little trek to Bethlehem could have proven fatal to an 80 year old man. 110 seems a bit ancient for that time and place in history.
Life was rough, even for a carpenter. And perhaps a bit more details about the ages of young brides then?
I've posted it before and I'll post it again:
"Mathematics are rather useless in matters of faith."
The Church relies on the facts that she has kept up with, not speculation.
Forgive me...
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excerpt from...
The Life of the Virgin Mary, The Theotokos
Chapter XVII "The Repose of the Righteous Elder Joseph, Whose memory The Holy Church celebrates in the First Sunday after the Nativity of Christ."
The just Joseph, of the royal lineage of King David, though his hands were covered with callouses, yet his spirit was refined and elevated with the knowledge of the sacred Scriptures to which he lived in accordance.
Though he took no part in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, nevertheless, he was chosen to be the betrothed of the Virgin and to be called the father of the Lord. He fulfilled all the duties of a father towards a son. He called His name Jesus [Mt. 1:25], had Him circumcised and paid the redemption for the firstborn, fled with the divine infant and His Mother into Egypt, and then chose their place of residence to be Nazareth.
In Nazareth, Joseph resumed his trade of carpentry, earning his living by the work of his hands, for he never sought to live by another’s labor. Church tradition tells us that the Lord Himself worked along side His foster father as a carpenter.
As we mentioned, Joseph’s first marriage to Salome produced sons and daughters. At the time of the elder Joseph’s repose, most of Jesus’ step-brothers and step-sisters had already married and were living in their own houses. This included his daughter, also named Salome, who had married Zebedee and had two sons, James and John, the “sons of thunder” and future Apostles. However, Jesus’ stepbrothers, Jude and James, were still living at home.
Jude had been born in Nazareth and, according to tradition, his mother was Salome, the wife of Joseph and the daughter of Haggai. This Haggai was the son of Barachias and the brother of Zacharias, the father of the holy Prophet John. Thus, this Salome was first-cousins with the famed St. John the Baptist.
The holy Theophylactos (765-840), Patriarch of Bulgaria, writes that, in their early years, Jude and others of his family did not believe in the God-Man Jesus. Whence came this disbelief in Him? It came from their own foolish will and from envy; for it is more characteristic of kinsfolk to envy their own relatives than for outsiders to do so. Thus was clear that Jude sinned against the Lord in his lack of faith.
However, Jude also showed a lack of brotherly love towards Jesus, in the following instance. Before nearing the end of his earthly sojourn, Joseph began to divide his land among his children born of his first wife Salome. He also wished to give a portion to the Lord Jesus Who was born supernaturally of the all-pure Mary. Three of Joseph’s sons did not want Jesus to have a share, since He was born of another mother. Only James accepted Jesus as co-owner of his own portion. Later in life, James, the “brother of the Lord”, became the first Bishop of Jerusalem, and is commemorated by the Church on the 23rd of October.
However, soon in the public ministry of Jesus, Jude repented of his former doubts and became one of the inner twelve disciples of his Brother. Nevertheless, Jude, thereafter, always deemed himself unworthy to be addressed as the “brother of the Lord” and would introduce himself as “the brother of James”.
When Joseph knew that he would soon repose, he arose and went to Jerusalem, into the temple of the Lord, and poured out his prayer before the sanctuary. He besought the Lord to send the great Michael, the prince of the holy angels, to remain with him when his soul would depart. He begged forgiveness for his sins and besought the Lord’s compassion.
He then returned to Nazareth and was suddenly seized by disease, making him keep to his bed. The sickness weighed heavily upon him. According to the most ancient tradition, dating from the time of the Apostles, Christ Himself heard the righteous man’s confession, an account of his entire life. Then, going beside his bed, Jesus said, “Hail, my father Joseph, thou righteous man.” And Joseph answered him, “Hail, my well-beloved Son. Indeed the agony and fear of death has encompassed me. But as soon as I heard Thy voice, my soul was at rest. O Jesus of Nazareth! Jesus, my Saviour! Jesus, the deliverer of my soul! Jesus, my protector! Jesus, O sweetest name in my mouth, and in the mouth of all that love it! O Eye that seest and Ear that hearest, hear me! I am Thy servant; this day I most humbly reverence Thee and before Thy face I pour out my tears. Thou art altogether my God!”
Jesus then closed his foster father’s eyes. He then buried him in the royal sepulcher in the Valley of Jehosaphat near Jerusalem, after having embraced him and wept over him.
The soul of Joseph then departed peacefully to his ancestors, where he gave witness to the joyful news of the long-awaited Messiah. According to St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (c.315-403), the Elder Joseph lived to a profound old age, having entered into rest at the age of one hundred and ten years old. He reposed just before Christ entered His public ministry to preach the Gospel.
Saint Joseph’s virtue is summed up in the words of the Evangelist Matthew that he was “a just man” (deekaos). This was the eulogy of Holy Writ itself.
Forgive me....
The Life of the Virgin Mary, The Theotokos
Chapter XVII "The Repose of the Righteous Elder Joseph, Whose memory The Holy Church celebrates in the First Sunday after the Nativity of Christ."
The just Joseph, of the royal lineage of King David, though his hands were covered with callouses, yet his spirit was refined and elevated with the knowledge of the sacred Scriptures to which he lived in accordance.
Though he took no part in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, nevertheless, he was chosen to be the betrothed of the Virgin and to be called the father of the Lord. He fulfilled all the duties of a father towards a son. He called His name Jesus [Mt. 1:25], had Him circumcised and paid the redemption for the firstborn, fled with the divine infant and His Mother into Egypt, and then chose their place of residence to be Nazareth.
In Nazareth, Joseph resumed his trade of carpentry, earning his living by the work of his hands, for he never sought to live by another’s labor. Church tradition tells us that the Lord Himself worked along side His foster father as a carpenter.
JESUS’ STEP-BROTHERS
As we mentioned, Joseph’s first marriage to Salome produced sons and daughters. At the time of the elder Joseph’s repose, most of Jesus’ step-brothers and step-sisters had already married and were living in their own houses. This included his daughter, also named Salome, who had married Zebedee and had two sons, James and John, the “sons of thunder” and future Apostles. However, Jesus’ stepbrothers, Jude and James, were still living at home.
Jude had been born in Nazareth and, according to tradition, his mother was Salome, the wife of Joseph and the daughter of Haggai. This Haggai was the son of Barachias and the brother of Zacharias, the father of the holy Prophet John. Thus, this Salome was first-cousins with the famed St. John the Baptist.
The holy Theophylactos (765-840), Patriarch of Bulgaria, writes that, in their early years, Jude and others of his family did not believe in the God-Man Jesus. Whence came this disbelief in Him? It came from their own foolish will and from envy; for it is more characteristic of kinsfolk to envy their own relatives than for outsiders to do so. Thus was clear that Jude sinned against the Lord in his lack of faith.
However, Jude also showed a lack of brotherly love towards Jesus, in the following instance. Before nearing the end of his earthly sojourn, Joseph began to divide his land among his children born of his first wife Salome. He also wished to give a portion to the Lord Jesus Who was born supernaturally of the all-pure Mary. Three of Joseph’s sons did not want Jesus to have a share, since He was born of another mother. Only James accepted Jesus as co-owner of his own portion. Later in life, James, the “brother of the Lord”, became the first Bishop of Jerusalem, and is commemorated by the Church on the 23rd of October.
However, soon in the public ministry of Jesus, Jude repented of his former doubts and became one of the inner twelve disciples of his Brother. Nevertheless, Jude, thereafter, always deemed himself unworthy to be addressed as the “brother of the Lord” and would introduce himself as “the brother of James”.
THE ELDER JOSEPH’S REPOSE
When Joseph knew that he would soon repose, he arose and went to Jerusalem, into the temple of the Lord, and poured out his prayer before the sanctuary. He besought the Lord to send the great Michael, the prince of the holy angels, to remain with him when his soul would depart. He begged forgiveness for his sins and besought the Lord’s compassion.
He then returned to Nazareth and was suddenly seized by disease, making him keep to his bed. The sickness weighed heavily upon him. According to the most ancient tradition, dating from the time of the Apostles, Christ Himself heard the righteous man’s confession, an account of his entire life. Then, going beside his bed, Jesus said, “Hail, my father Joseph, thou righteous man.” And Joseph answered him, “Hail, my well-beloved Son. Indeed the agony and fear of death has encompassed me. But as soon as I heard Thy voice, my soul was at rest. O Jesus of Nazareth! Jesus, my Saviour! Jesus, the deliverer of my soul! Jesus, my protector! Jesus, O sweetest name in my mouth, and in the mouth of all that love it! O Eye that seest and Ear that hearest, hear me! I am Thy servant; this day I most humbly reverence Thee and before Thy face I pour out my tears. Thou art altogether my God!”
Jesus then closed his foster father’s eyes. He then buried him in the royal sepulcher in the Valley of Jehosaphat near Jerusalem, after having embraced him and wept over him.
The soul of Joseph then departed peacefully to his ancestors, where he gave witness to the joyful news of the long-awaited Messiah. According to St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (c.315-403), the Elder Joseph lived to a profound old age, having entered into rest at the age of one hundred and ten years old. He reposed just before Christ entered His public ministry to preach the Gospel.
Saint Joseph’s virtue is summed up in the words of the Evangelist Matthew that he was “a just man” (deekaos). This was the eulogy of Holy Writ itself.
Forgive me....
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