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Martin Luther started a new church

henrikhankhagnell

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I know this is a common question but I'll ask it anyway.
Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century to start a new church. We all know that if you start a new church it will never be the one true Church Jesus founded. This would prove that the Lutheran Church was not founded by our Lord Himself but by a human. What do you think about this?
I am not here to be against Lutheranism but learn how Lutherans think about this great issue.
 

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Martin Luther did not leave the RCC to start a new church. He set out to reform the church and in the process was excommunicated. His goal was to bring the church back to the teachings of the Bible and not the many man made laws that were happening in the church. He was not out to start a new church. A new church was eventually formed because the RCC would not listen to the concerns.
 
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Logical_Lutheran

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Martin Luther never wanted to start a new church or create another schizm. He wanted to reform the church and bring it back to what the church should be, non-works based salvation. By the way, I see you don't have a catholic tag to your name, shall we assume that your church is not valid or founded by the Lord himself, but a human? Just something to think about before you come in here trying to throw proofs around. I'll let someone else answer why we evangelical catholics are a valid apostolic church before I get even more frustrated with these "non attacks".

Thesis 21 of the heidelberg disputation:

A theology of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theology of the cross calls the thing what it actually is.
 
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LilLamb219

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I know this is a common question but I'll ask it anyway.
Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century to start a new church. We all know that if you start a new church it will never be the one true Church Jesus founded. This would prove that the Lutheran Church was not founded by our Lord Himself but by a human. What do you think about this?
I am not here to be against Lutheranism but learn how Lutherans think about this great issue.

You are asking what we think about this? C'mon. I believe you know we think it's complete nonsense.

As others have said, the Roman church strayed from the truth faith and Luther saw how corrupt it had begun. He wanted to turn the church back to where the focus should have been...on Christ Jesus, but he was excommunicated.

Luther did not start a new church.
 
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henrikhankhagnell

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I see you don't have a catholic tag to your name, shall we assume that your church is not valid or founded by the Lord himself, but a human? Just something to think about before you come in here trying to throw proofs around.
Well, I don't have catholic tag since I don't belog to a church. I would like to convert to either Catholic Church or the Oriental Orthodox Church but it takes some time.

Luther did not start a new church. Luther taught Biblical Gospel-focused Christianity within the Church and was excommunicated.
did he accept the 7 ecumenical councils (OO accept only 3) that the Catholics accept?

Martin Luther did not leave the RCC to start a new church. He set out to reform the church and in the process was excommunicated. His goal was to bring the church back to the teachings of the Bible and not the many man made laws that were happening in the church. He was not out to start a new church. A new church was eventually formed because the RCC would not listen to the concerns.
so he didn't like listening to the Tradition, he only liked reading the the Bible?
 
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Logical_Lutheran

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Well, I don't have catholic tag since I don't belog to a church. I would like to convert to either Catholic Church or the Oriental Orthodox Church but it takes some time.


did he accept the 7 ecumenical councils (OO accept only 3) that the Catholics accept?


so he didn't like listening to the Tradition, he only liked reading the the Bible?

Those questions are clearly answered in The Book of Concord.

I don't believe that you are truly looking for us to answer your questions. I think that you are just looking for an argument so that you have a reason to join the church that you want, so instead save us all the hassle and go to a priest in the tradition you are looking to be a part of. If you aren't finding your answers there then maybe it's because you are looking in the wrong place. Searching for answers here will only lead you to what lutherans know to be the truth, which you have already seemed to deem apostate before hand.
 
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henrikhankhagnell

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Those questions are clearly answered in The Book of Concord.

I don't believe that you are truly looking for us to answer your questions. I think that you are just looking for an argument so that you have a reason to join the church that you want, so instead save us all the hassle and go to a priest in the tradition you are looking to be a part of. If you aren't finding your answers there then maybe it's because you are looking in the wrong place. Searching for answers here will only lead you to what lutherans know to be the truth, which you have already seemed to deem apostate before hand.
thanks for the link. but is the book of concord accepted by all Lutheran Churches?
 
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Luther073082

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The origional church of Christ was founded not on a person such as Peter but on a confession of faith that Peter gave.

Therefore the church that Christ founded was one on doctrine, doctrines which are found and taught in the holy scriptures.

so he didn't like listening to the Tradition, he only liked reading the the Bible?

Well yes and no. The problem in the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churchs is that tradition has been taken to a whole new level.

Lutherans use tradition to help us understand scripture and what the early Christians did. But entire doctrines can not be invented completly out of tradition, they must have some basis in scripture.

The problem with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churchs is that they have taken traditions to a whole new level. Plus they have picked and choosen tradition. Listen when it boils down to it, there are a lot of writings and traditions from early Christians, most of whom died in good standing with the church. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox traditions pick and choose which of those traditions they like and which they dislike and say that God led them to the right ones.

This is especially questionable since they disagree on which traditions to use!!! Which one is God leading? Ultimatly you have to belive these churchs simpily because they told you so. They have nothing to back up that these traditions where commanded by God other then a early Christian father wrote something. The problem is that PEOPLE, even early Christian fathers also have their own opinions on things. So just because Iraneus wrote something, doesn't make it gospel truth just because he said so. It just means this is his opinion.

Now whats important is to balance that, when multiple writers all write that the church always performed infant baptisms, thats when we have to pay attention. First of all because they are saying that the CHURCH has ALWAYS belived this. They arn't off on a rant about one topic or another, they are laying down that the church in general belives this. Major difference. . .

One is like a pastor writing on health care issues. Just because a pastor wrote his opinion on health care doesn't mean that the entire church supports his argument or beliefs in that regard. In that regard its an entirely political issue which the church has no opinion.

The Lutheran church does not invent doctrines out of thin air, everything must be ultimatly supported via scripture. We may make use of tradition to help us work out the details, but we won't come up with one entirely on the basis of tradition.

If you are familiar with the field of law, tradition in Lutheranism is a sort of weaker version of Stare decisis. If you arn't here is what the definition of Stare Decisis is via Wikipedia.

Stare Decisis is a legal principle by which judges are obliged to respect the precedents established by prior decisions. The words originate from the phrasing of the principle in the Latin maxim Stare decisis et non quieta movere: "to stand by decisions and not disturb the undisturbed."[1] In a legal context, this is understood to mean that courts should generally abide by precedents and not disturb settled matters

Courts rule on law, and in the absence of a change in law the courts tend to rule the same way that they have previously ruled.

The church interpretes and understands scripture. Since scripture does not change we tend to interprete and understand scripture the way it has been previously understood by the earliest church fathers.
 
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DaRev

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I know this is a common question but I'll ask it anyway.
Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century to start a new church. We all know that if you start a new church it will never be the one true Church Jesus founded. This would prove that the Lutheran Church was not founded by our Lord Himself but by a human. What do you think about this?
I am not here to be against Lutheranism but learn how Lutherans think about this great issue.

The moon must be full... somewhere...

Martin Luther did not leave the church of Rome. It left him.

The Church known as the Lutheran Church is the one true Church founded by Christ Himself, based upon the teachings of the Apostles handed down over the centuries. The church of Rome had strayed so far from the Church catholic that it barely resembled the church of the Apostles.

The Confessional Lutheran Church is the true Church catholic.
 
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seajoy

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look for a church that still continues in keeping the God given appointments and positions for church leadership, found in 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 If they don't hold to the God given appointments of church leadership they have become apostate and have left the truth

Please do not answer for the Lutherans. Thank you.
 
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Kalevalatar

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What do you think about this?

I think the Lutheran reformers took the one Church back to its roots by gettind rid of all the extraneous extravaganza (like indulgences) & padding that had gathered on it like dust and dirt and stuff gathers into the corners of an old house. Lutheran reformers did not get rid of the whole house, rather, they renovated the house back to its former glory, the house that once was, the house as it was meant to be.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Luther did not start a new church. Luther taught Biblical Gospel-focused Christianity within the Church and was excommunicated.


Exactly....

Pope Leo FAILED to keep his denomination together...
Pope Leo EXCOMMUNICATED Luther, thus (indirectly) started a new denomination...

It was NOT a case of Luther and Pope Leo enjoying beer and pizza - and Luther saying, "Boy, I'm REALLY thankful for all the hugs and kisses - and I really appreciate all your pleas for me to stay in your denomination, but I think I'll mosey alone and start another denomination" and the Pope replying, "Let us know if there's anything we can do for you! Love and kisses forever!" Nope. That's not how it happened....





.
 
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Zecryphon

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I know this is a common question but I'll ask it anyway.
Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century to start a new church. We all know that if you start a new church it will never be the one true Church Jesus founded. This would prove that the Lutheran Church was not founded by our Lord Himself but by a human. What do you think about this?
I am not here to be against Lutheranism but learn how Lutherans think about this great issue.

We believe in what history has shown happened. Luther was excommunicated by a Papal Bull issued by Pope Leo X. It was never Luther's intention to leave the RCC and start a new church, he simply wanted to reform the errors that were present in the RCC at that time. What many people forget is that there is no proof that the RCC was founded by our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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doulos_tou_kuriou

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look for a church that still continues in keeping the God given appointments and positions for church leadership, found in 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11 If they don't hold to the God given appointments of church leadership they have become apostate and have left the truth

1) you're not Lutheran, please do not answer for us
2) if they do not carry out his mission (preach the gospel and administer the sacraments) they are apostate
 
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doulos_tou_kuriou

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The Lord founds the true church, and his church is whenever and wherever believers gather around his word and sacrament because there he is, there he has promised to work forgiveness, there the Spirit is active as the Bible testifies. He did not found it on a person or tradition, he founded it upon himself and his promises.

If you play the game of one true church because of history, when you reach the great schism you have a problem, because Orthodox and Catholic can both claim the other left them. And then IF you go the Catholic route, Lutherans and Catholics will each claim the other left the church and so on.

Luther did not disregard tradition, but as he should he measured it according to God's word. Luther never considered himself starting a new church but rather returning people to Christ's church. Luther only accepted councils that agreed with scripture.

Not all people who claim to be Lutheran even consider the entire BoC (some only accept the AC). Then others who do confess the entire BoC regard it and use it very differently. Therefore Lutherans differ greatly among themselves as to who constitutes an actual Lutheran.

To Lutherans the church is not built on the governance or tradition, it is built on God. Therefore the true Church rests in him alone, carries out his ministry, and he therefore is the actor. And that transcends bodies, denominations, or titles for as it says in Ephesians there is one body, one faith, one baptism, one Lord of all.
 
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Please do not answer for the Lutherans. Thank you.
I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church, one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text. or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions
 
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seajoy

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I won't I just found it funny that Luther seeing blatant biblical error in RCC tried to make changes and was kicked out, so he began a new church, one that was going to follow scripture as a basis for truth, If scripture is the basis for truth then why would you be against the scriptural positions of church based on biblical text. or is it possible you may be making the same mistake the RCC made by not following what was written, and rather followed man made traditions

I take it that you are interested in the Lutheran faith that you keep coming over here. May your ears be opened.
 
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