Martin Luther - Mentally ill?

[Chris†opher Paul]

I was watching "Extreme Conditions - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" and they mentioned that Martin Luther had a version of OCD that made him obsessed with sin and he felt he could not confess enough to be forgiven by God.

Anyone else heard this about him? 

I hadn't heard that before, so I was just curious.  I'm not trying to exploit his illness to make his theology look bad.

 

[Caedmon]

Well if Martin Luther was mentally ill, then so am I, because I have problems with guilt as well.

But yes, I just learned about Luther's problem. He simply could not do enough to feel like he was forgiven. This is why, I am told, that he resorted to "faith alone", because he simply could not find peace.

 

[nbkan67]

Yes, you are both correct. Whether or not he suffered from OCD I can not say. But he did feel that he could not be forgiven and could not be released from his sin. Some of this was directly due to his learnings and time as a monk in the Catholic Church.

 

[Gabriel]

I'm inclined to believe these claim.  Although I would tend to think that this was closer to the end of his life.  Some of his works got a little out of hand toward the end.

 

[nbkan67]

Some of his later works did get a "bit out of hand" - Specifically, he had a lot of trouble (as a lot of theologians do) with understanding the book of Revelation. He saw the Pope as the antichrist and made it very obvious.

The lasting part of his teachings is valid, he took an uneducated populace and gave them the Bible. He explained that it was the authority and not the Church, and that Faith Alone will save you.

I know that some of his later woodcarvings are quite interesting relating to the Pope and the antichrist. But again, here we are 500 years later judging the attitude of the times. To him, the Pope was the antichrist, to some People Saddam Hussein is.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by nbkan67
Some of this was directly due to his learnings and time as a monk in the Catholic Church.

Actually, I would say this was more caused by his time with his mother than anything else. I've been told that one time he had the ever-lovin' tar beaten out of him by his mother for stealing a nut out of a bowl.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by nbkan67
he took an uneducated populace and gave them the Bible.

And the Catholic Church does not do this? Have you ever been to a mass?

He explained that it was the authority and not the Church, and that Faith Alone will save you.

... and initiated dozens of different interpretations simultaneously, which he later deeply regreted.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

He explained that it was the authority and not the Church, and that Faith Alone will save you.

Yep, pretty messed up, huh?

 

[nbkan67]

quote:
Originally posted by nbkan67
he took an uneducated populace and gave them the Bible.

Quote: Humblejoe -  And the Catholic Church does not do this? Have you ever been to a mass?


Yes - I have been to mass lately - but I was speaking to the way it was conducted in the 1500s. Done in latin, few non-latin translations and the uneduacated people had to believe what they were told to believe by the Church. I did not mean to imply that the Catholic Church continues this practice, only that it was normal practice in the 1500s.

 

[VOW]

To nbkan67:

Sorry to disappoint you, but there were numerous translations of the Bible in the local vernacular in the 1500s. Personal Bibles were not the norm because of the expense, plus the fact that most of the population couldn't read.

Luther didn't invent translating the Bible. He just wanted one that was HIS OWN translation.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[AngelAmidala]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I was watching "Extreme Conditions - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" and they mentioned that Martin Luther had a version of OCD that made him obsessed with sin and he felt he could not confess enough to be forgiven by God.

Anyone else heard this about him? 

I hadn't heard that before, so I was just curious.  I'm not trying to exploit his illness to make his theology look bad.

I hadn't heard this before either.  So you have my thanks for starting up the topic and causing discussion to take place!   

 

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I was watching "Extreme Conditions - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" and they mentioned that Martin Luther had a version of OCD that made him obsessed with sin and he felt he could not confess enough to be forgiven by God.

Anyone else heard this about him? 

I hadn't heard that before, so I was just curious.  I'm not trying to exploit his illness to make his theology look bad.

It's hard to believe, since Martin Luther believed that salvation was through faith alone, and not in confessing every little sin.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I was watching "Extreme Conditions - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" and they mentioned that Martin Luther had a version of OCD that made him obsessed with sin and he felt he could not confess enough to be forgiven by God.

Anyone else heard this about him?

Yes, it's called "scrupulosity".

Originally posted by s0uljah
I hadn't heard that before, so I was just curious. I'm not trying to exploit his illness to make his theology look bad.

Nah, no need to make excuses for his bad theology. It manages to do that on its own.

Besides, while Luther makes a nice "scapegoat" on occassion, the fact of the matter remains that in the grand scheme of things, Luther was just a catalyst for a larger political movement against the Church that was brewing in what is now the Protestant portions of Europe. Without the backing of the German nobility, Luther would have been a lone priest who would have eventually been written off as stark raving mad. Fact of the matter is, the Church had faced in the past (and faces today as a matter of fact) worse theological dissension amongst the ranks of the priesthood than that of Martin Luther during his time.

Therefore, rather than being interested in the practice of Christianity, the German nobility was interested in acquiring land that was not theirs (ie: belonged to the Catholic Church) and used Luther's "movement" to facilitate this process. So, far from being a "religious movement" the Reformation had its roots more in politics than anything else.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by lambslove
It's hard to believe, since Martin Luther believed that salvation was through faith alone, and not in confessing every little sin.

Actually it is not hard to believe if one actually reads his writings. Being of the Augustinian Order, Luther was quite familiar with the Catholic theological aspects of the Sacrament of Confession and if one reads his writings, one can see his scrupulosity take shape. Luther was worried that if he failed to confess every sin, no matter how little, it would come back to "bite him in the buttocks" and wind him up in hell. To avoid this problem, Luther finally came to the conclusion that confession of sins was not worthwhile and that a simple "profession of faith" acted like "a blanket of snow covering his dung heap of sins".

However, there is a problem with Luther's argument (as it evidenced by your own comments). Catholics do not need to "confess every little sin". What we must do is attempt to recollect all the instances by which we harmed the Body of Christ and disobeyed God and seek forgiveness for them. In addition, we seek forgiveness for slights "intentioned and unintentioned" (ie: those we remember and those we do not, or may not even know were offensive). You don't need to know that you used foul language on 376 different occassions, rather you need to recognize that you are a sinner and that the only forgiveness of your sins can come through Jesus Christ.

How hard is that to comprehend?

 

[ZiSunka]

Here's what I found on the subject:

"While on vacation, Raymond incessantly checked the carpets of Disney World looking for poison he had seen spilled there--in his mind.... Sherry was terrified of her thoughts about stabbing her baby daughter.... Jeff couldn't silence a mental voice urging him to have sex with men and animals.... Howard Hughes had it. So did historical figures Martin Luther and Ignatius of Loyola . They all suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)--as do over five million Americans who need to know that there is now hope and help...Luther's obession first appeared during his early years as a monk and manifested in the belief that Satan was pursuing him and the fear that he would not be able to resist."

There's a lot more interesting stuff on Luther's mental status on:
http://www.freemethodistchurch.org/Magazine/Articles/Nov-Dec Articles/N-D Headley Article.htm

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by nyj

Nah, no need to make excuses for his bad theology. It manages to do that on its own. Besides, while Luther makes a nice "scapegoat" on occassion, the fact of the matter remains that in the grand scheme of things, Luther was just a catalyst for a larger political movement against the Church that was brewing in what is now the Protestant portions of Europe. Without the backing of the German nobility, Luther would have been a lone priest who would have eventually been written off as stark raving mad. Rather than being interested in the practice of Christianity, the German nobility was interested in acquiring land that was not theirs (ie: belonged to the Catholic Church) and used Luther's "movement" to facilitate this process. So, far from being a "religious movement" the Reformation had its roots more in politics than anything else.

Very interesting!  *edited*

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Very interesting!  *edited*

That's unnecessary and I think a violation of the rules. We aren't supposed to attack each other's beliefs like that.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Very interesting!  Its a shame people still stick by this "theology" given its strange origins.

s0uljah -

This is an ad hominem. The validity of a theology is independent of the conditions of its origen. If a madman raves, "God is all-powerful," you don't say God is limited in His power because of this.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
This is an ad hominem.

Actually it's not. Ad hominem is the process of attacking a persons character rather than tackling the issues raised by that person.

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
The validity of a theology is independent of the conditions of its origen.

Once again, this is not true. The conditions of origin of a theological position is most certainly a factor. Perfect examples are Mormonism, Islam and the Jehovah Witness movement. I'd say that the origins of Protestantism, of which very few Protestants are aware, is most certainly an issue people should take into consideration.

 

[Phoebe]

Many who have a high level of intellect border on insanity or eccentricity. (Look at Einstein!)
Luther made a vow to become a monk when he was caught in a terrible storm. (Help me, Saint Anna, and I will become a monk!)
Yes, he was obsessed by sin. It is written about in many of his works. (the word obsessed isn't used)
I recommend that all take a look at some of his writings.