Marriage

[peepnklown]

I say, mind your own business when it comes to the personal choices of individuals; marriage is a contract between individuals and they are the only individuals who have a say in the matter. It’s called liberty!

 

[sidhe]

P -> Q
¬ Q -> ¬ P

Or the universe implodes.

Nice try, but it's an invalid concept, as it fails the test of material implication.

Example:

All animals that are poodles are dogs
​

Contraposition:

All animals that are not poodles, are not dogs.
​

So your theory is not only flawed, it's a fallacious argument. And if you really knew anything about propositional logic, you were already aware of that.

Again, what happened to honesty?

Regards,
-- Druweid

^ That.

Furthermore saying a marriage blessed by G-d is a marriage is a tautology, as it's just saying a marriage is a marriage. While not a fallacy, it's not exactly proving anything.

 

[TaleSpin]

Nice try, but it's an invalid concept, as it fails the test of material implication.

Example:

All animals that are poodles are dogs
​

Contraposition:

All animals that are not poodles, are not dogs.
​

So your theory is not only flawed, it's a fallacious argument. And if you really knew anything about propositional logic, you were already aware of that.

Again, what happened to honesty?

Regards,
-- Druweid

Lol I get this picture of you sitting next to a fire place in a smoking jacket sipping brandy and giggling about propositional logic. Something, you demonstrably haven't really mastered yet since you don't seem to know what a contrapositive is:

Argument

All animals that are poodles are dogs

An Actual Contrapositive

All animals that are not dogs, are not poodles.

And whatdya know - true thang. Tis always true matey (unless of course the initial statement is false) - cuz it be the contrapositive!

The trouble isn't really one of logic or rationality - it's a desire to simply not accept reality. When the Bible says that marriage is when "God HATH" "joined" something "together;" then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that "God" as actor is just as an essential element in that sentence as "joined." Just as it is not a marriage if nothing is being joined, it is equally not a marriage if the authority who joins people in marriage isn't the one doing it.

This isn't a difficult concept... if you find it difficult then here is a little homework for you (its going to require some reason by analogy). Go find a mcdonalds manager and ask them to "marry you" to a friend - THEN when you fill out your taxes this year, put them down as your spouse and see how quickly the government comes back at you with various threats of legal action for not having a legitimate authority "join" the two of you.

It's not different with God; if you aren't joined by God, you aren't married. You know this, you just want to pretend otherwise.

 

[TaleSpin]

^ That.

-10 points for being a ditto head. I award you three Rush Limbaughs.

Furthermore saying a marriage blessed by G-d is a marriage is a tautology, as it's just saying a marriage is a marriage. While not a fallacy, it's not exactly proving anything.

-10 points for misunderstanding the argument. They asked where the Bible says marriage must be blessed by God. Providing relevant scripture proves that it must. Sadly, there is no award for this category.

 

[TaleSpin]

Reiterated:

You are fighting ever so ardently for the exact thing you think I am; just on the flip side of the coin. You're running around screaming about how intolerant the evil Christians are for insisting marriage means *GASP* marriage, so that you can whine your way into forcing us to accept such nonsense as "Gay Marriage" etc - your beliefs.

Same tactics, different football team. You're just angry your team is losing.

 

[Druweid]

Argument

All animals that are poodles are dogs

An Actual Contrapositive

All animals that are not dogs, are not poodles.

And whatdya know - true thang. Tis always true matey (unless of course the initial statement is false) - cuz it be the contrapositive!

Interesting, since my example of a contrapositive was modeled after your example.

So by your own admission, YOUR contrapositive should read;

"all people that are not married are not joined by God"

Hey! You're right, the contrapositive does work out. I apologize for my error and thank you for your clarification.

It's not different with God; if you aren't joined by God, you aren't married. You know this, you just want to pretend otherwise.

Please, spare me the convoluted logic. Your entire argument is still worthless for lack of any reasonable basis or actual facts.

Back to the question at hand:

So, by all means, please list one, JUST ONE biblical text that clearly shows marriage without God's blessing is not a marriage.

(Matthew 19:4-6 KJV) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, {5} And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? {6} Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

You claim this answers my question? Fine, then all I have to do is provide biblical proof of a marriage having occurred without God's blessing, eh?

Ezra 9:2 (NIV): "They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness"
​

What's this? Unfaithfulness to God, and yet still considered married??

Nehemiah 13:27 (NIV):"Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"
​

Wicked and unfaithful, and God is joining these unions??

1 Corinthians 6:16 (NIV):"Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”"
​

Soooo, does God bless a union with a "harlot?" Or was the marriage made legitimate by the physical union?

And finally,

Leviticus 21:7 "They must not marry women defiled by prostitution or divorced from their husbands, because priests are holy to their God"
​

So, if it is specifically prohibited in the Jewish Law, that which is most revered as God's word, why is it still considered "married?"

Now, I asked you for one scripture, you failed. I supplied four to support my position, and I can quote more if you wish. Your games of pseudo-logic are childish and without merit. The only thing you've proved is a willingness to sacrifice truth in support of your own personal opinion. Jump up and down screaming "I'm right, I'm right" all you want, you're convincing nobody.

Regards,
-- Druweid

 

[Druweid]

The trouble isn't really one of logic or rationality - it's a desire to simply not accept reality. When the Bible says that marriage is when "God HATH" "joined" something "together;" then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that "God" as actor is just as an essential element in that sentence as "joined." Just as it is not a marriage if nothing is being joined, it is equally not a marriage if the authority who joins people in marriage isn't the one doing it.

This is wrong on two counts:

Begging the question

Affirming the Consequent

-- Druweid

 

[TaleSpin]

Interesting, since my example of a contrapositive was modeled after your example.

So by your own admission, YOUR contrapositive should read;

"all people that are not married are not joined by God"

Hey! You're right, the contrapositive does work out. I apologize for my error and thank you for your clarification.

Please, spare me the convoluted logic. Your entire argument is still worthless for lack of any reasonable basis or actual facts.

You can't read. If P then Q, if not Q then not P. That's what I wrote and that's what you incorrectly responded to, it looks like a poster even quoted me. Evidently you don't like that since you're once again blaming me for your mistake. Anybody capable of pressing "back 1 page" will catch you.

Back to the question at hand:

You claim this answers my question? Fine, then all I have to do is provide biblical proof of a marriage having occurred without God's blessing, eh?

Ezra 9:2 (NIV): "They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness"
​

What's this? Unfaithfulness to God, and yet still considered married??

Nehemiah 13:27 (NIV):"Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"
​

Woooow you've lost the plot. You're giving evidence against yourself... they took women outside what God wanted (thus called "unfaithfulness) for them which became their undoing for going against God. They can take for wife whatever pleases them, if it's not what God wants it's not a marriage, it's a sin. As you can plainly see from these examples.

Wicked and unfaithful, and God is joining these unions??

1 Corinthians 6:16 (NIV):"Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”"
​

Soooo, does God bless a union with a "harlot?" Or was the marriage made legitimate by the physical union?

And finally,

Leviticus 21:7 "They must not marry women defiled by prostitution or divorced from their husbands, because priests are holy to their God"
​

So, if it is specifically prohibited in the Jewish Law, that which is most revered as God's word, why is it still considered "married?"

1 Corinthians 6: 16 is an allegory for joining the body of Christ. Read the whole thing - or at least give us the privilege of seeing it all.

14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!


16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Are you still going to tell me this is a dissertation on marriage?

Now, I asked you for one scripture, you failed. I supplied four to support my position, and I can quote more if you wish. Your games of pseudo-logic are childish and without merit. The only thing you've proved is a willingness to sacrifice truth in support of your own personal opinion. Jump up and down screaming "I'm right, I'm right" all you want, you're convincing nobody.

Regards,
-- Druweid

I showed you scripture; it saying a marriage is between a man and a woman joined by God. Here it is again if you have forgotten.

(Matthew 19:4-6 KJV) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, {5} And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? {6} Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

You ignored it, proceeded to err in reason, not liking that I called out your mistake, you lied (see above); provided scripture that reinforces my point and another one that was talking about joining with God - and had nothing to do with marriage.

 

[Druweid]

This isn't a difficult concept... if you find it difficult then here is a little homework for you (its going to require some reason by analogy). Go find a mcdonalds manager and ask them to "marry you" to a friend - THEN when you fill out your taxes this year, put them down as your spouse and see how quickly the government comes back at you with various threats of legal action for not having a legitimate authority "join" the two of you.

Since, instead of a McDonald's Manager, I could also go to an Agnostic Justice of the Peace, this argument is (surprise, surprise) yet another logical fallacy, i.e., a false dilemma.

-- Druweid

 

[TaleSpin]

The trouble isn't really one of logic or rationality - it's a desire to simply not accept reality. When the Bible says that marriage is when "God HATH" "joined" something "together;" then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that "God" as actor is just as an essential element in that sentence as "joined." Just as it is not a marriage if nothing is being joined, it is equally not a marriage if the authority who joins people in marriage isn't the one doing it.

This isn't a difficult concept... if you find it difficult then here is a little homework for you (its going to require some reason by analogy). Go find a mcdonalds manager and ask them to "marry you" to a friend - THEN when you fill out your taxes this year, put them down as your spouse and see how quickly the government comes back at you with various threats of legal action for not having a legitimate authority "join" the two of you.

It's not different with God; if you aren't joined by God, you aren't married. You know this, you just want to pretend otherwise.

Since, instead of a McDonald's Manager, I could also go to an Agnostic Justice of the Peace, this argument is (surprise, surprise) yet another logical fallacy, i.e., a false dilemma.

-- Druweid

I'm concerned you may have lost the plot...

 

[Druweid]

You can't read. If P then Q, if not Q then not P. That's what I wrote and that's what you incorrectly responded to, it looks like a poster even quoted me. Evidently you don't like that since you're once again blaming me for your mistake. Anybody capable of pressing "back 1 page" will catch you.

I blamed no one. I showed the err in your logic.

Woooow you've lost the plot. You're giving evidence against yourself... they took women outside what God wanted (thus called "unfaithfulness) for them which became their undoing for going against God. They can take for wife whatever pleases them, if it's not what God wants it's not a marriage, it's a sin. As you can plainly see from these examples.

But they still called it "marriage," didn't they?

1 Corinthians 6: 16 is an allegory for joining the body of Christ. Read the whole thing - or at least give us the privilege of seeing it all.

14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!


16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Are you still going to tell me this is a dissertation on marriage?

First, it's not an allegory, it's a metaphor, if you're going to pretend to be educated, get a dictionary. Second, the purpose of a metaphor *by definition* uses symbolism to establish similarity. Since I was making a comparison of marriage-to-scripture, any similarity has logical bearing.

I showed you scripture; it saying a marriage is between a man and a woman joined by God. Here it is again if you have forgotten.

(Matthew 19:4-6 KJV) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, {5} And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? {6} Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

You ignored it, proceeded to err in reason, not liking that I called out your mistake, you lied (see above); provided scripture that reinforces my point and another one that was talking about joining with God - and had nothing to do with marriage.

I have made your errors plain. You're still just stating your opinion, only more loudly.

-- Druweid

 

[Naturalist_Atheist]

Reiterated:

You are fighting ever so ardently for the exact thing you think I am; just on the flip side of the coin. You're running around screaming about how intolerant the evil Christians are for insisting marriage means *GASP* marriage, so that you can whine your way into forcing us to accept such nonsense as "Gay Marriage" etc - your beliefs.

Same tactics, different football team. You're just angry your team is losing.

Um... Just for the record. I never once said Christians needed to recognize any form of marriage other than what they currently hold true. And I don't feel any religious institution should be made to recognize any form of marriage they don't believe to be valid. But I will also say that Christians don't have a monopoly on the institution of marriage. It predates your beliefs. Just let the government maintain an unbiased view. Allowing the government to recognize gay marriage takes nothing away from you, your beliefs, or your marriage.

And while I don't think my team is "winning" I certainly do not think we're losing. After all. That gay marriage nonsense is recognized in my state. Don't hate. Congradulate.

 

[Druweid]

I'm concerned you may have lost the plot...

That's a rather interesting way of admitting you're in over your head.

-- Druweid

 

[Naturalist_Atheist]

I have some very sad news for you... everything you hate about religion you exhibit in Atheism. Ya know:

• The nearly militant solipsism;
• The prejudism;
• Using legal systems to enforce your beliefs onto others;
• The laundry list of mean celebrities associated with your belief
• The fact it's actually an unconfirmed belief; rather than something rational and self evident

You're not "tolerant" nor "enlightened" and "problem" of your attachment to religion isn't actually fixed you've merely converted to a new one. Same boat, different flag.

Militant solipsism? How so? Prejudism? Example please!

You're the one demanding legal action be taken to retrict all forms of marriage, spare yours. I'm for LESS government regulation. You are for more.

Whoa.. Where the heck did this celebrity thing come from? LOL! What does that even have to do with anything?

Atheism shows a LACK of beleif in gods. There are no positive beliefs associated with atheism. Anyone who understand the concept of atheism realizes that it is in no way a religion. I understand that certain religious fundies would love to portray it as a religion, because that makes it all the more easy to discredit, but you and I both know atheism cannot be a religion.

 

[DerSchweik]

Mod Hat On

A friendly caution to keep the posts addressed to the OP and avoid personal attacks.

Please keep the discussion civil and to the point.

Mod Hat Off​