Marriage under God and not by Law/State, possible or impossible?

[Avniel]

Oh I don't think there are two kinds of marriages, I think there's only one. And of those marriages, the state recognizes the ones with the proper paperwork filled out. But I don't think that state recognition (or even church recognition) institutes marriage.

If that were true, then Adam and Eve were just 'shacking up'.

That being said, I'm wondering about the OP's motivation. If this is about, "Well let's get married before we get married so we can start knockin' da boots", then there are probably less controversial options.

I don't think there are two marriages but I think there should be. The bible tells us to obey the laws of the land, but it doesn't tell us not to fight for what we believe is right.

This reminds me of slaves, that would jump over a broom to state that they were married. I do not think that these slaves were shacking up even though it was illegal for slaves to marry.

I don't even know where my marriage certifacte is but I do have the broom we jumped hanging up in my living room. If we didn't jump the broom I don't think I would feel like I was married. The bible says what so ever a man thinkth so is he. The jumping the broom was my marriage certicate and it had nothing to do with the government.

 

[Albion]

We did kinda go off topic but I think its relvant to the conversation.

When our marriages look like regualar every day marriages, its a problem. When we have the same bad attitudes as everyone else, its a problem. When people call us hyporcities every turn because we act worldly, talk worldly and see things worldly..........there is a problem.

Well, sure, but we had been discussing the validity of marriages, not how well any particular kind has worked out, etc.

 

[seeingeyes]

We have been talking about religious ceremonies and secular ones, right?

I hope not, I got married by the mayor.

But it constitutes a marriage. Not a sacramental one, but a valid union in God's eyes, just the same. Anyway, that's my view and it's what almost all churches of whatever denomination think.

Oh yes, I agree that when two people stand up and make this commitment in front of God and man, then it's a marriage (or the beginning of a marriage, at any rate)...I just don't think that the caliber of the witnesses plays any part in the validity of the union formed. If that makes sense.

I don't make a distinction between a 'sacramental' union and a 'valid' one, though I'm not a member of a liturgical church, so I'll have to accept it if you find my opinion a little barbaric.

I'd consider God to be the officiant in that marriage.

I'd consider God to be the officiant in every marriage, whether we like it or not, which is why He takes such unions so seriously.

Even someone who gets drunk in Vegas and marries a stranger in front of Elvis is accountable to God for his union. That man might consider it a joke or a cliche, but God ain't playin'.

 

[AgileFeet]

It does not make a lot of sense that someone would agree to pursue the incredibly high calling of God to marriage and yet balk at the minimal requirements of the state.

So why do you ask?

Alright by my understanding, God is the one that created Marriage between Adam and Eve. I also understand the fact that being married with the paperwork shows proof of your love for another person between God??? (Which is not true at all) It's just a paper.

 

[AgileFeet]

By the way, why do you want to put off getting married, if I may ask?

I put off getting a "marriage license" due to the fact that I wouldn't be up to standards with "society" when it comes to being married, own house, car, finances, etc.

 

[AgileFeet]

I have a marriage license but I think it's just nonsense. Weddings are becoming more and more a lucrative business and uncle Sam wants his cut, that's all. Unless your state has blood tests requirements it's really pointless.

It's even unconstitutional there is a separation of church and state.

That's exact what I brought up, there is a separation of church in state, but the government picks and chooses what they want to be separated from when it comes to Church. Selective choosing.

 

[seeingeyes]

I put off getting a "marriage license" due to the fact that I wouldn't be up to standards with "society" when it comes to being married, own house, car, finances, etc.

Now we've gotten to the meat.

None of those things is any kind of requirement for marriage. Not even in this society. No one would claim, "oh, they aren't really married cause they don't own a house". Yes, there will always be folks who think you shouldn't have gotten married for whatever reasons, but you aren't marrying them, so it doesn't matter what they think.

What does your fiance say?

 

[AgileFeet]

U.S. law doesn't forbid anyone from saying that they are 'married in God's eyes' or even from just 'shacking up'. So it's not, in fact, ignoring the law to do either one. However, if you want to reap the state-offered benefits of marriage, you have to sow the paperwork.

This is exactly what I have researched. There is no law that forbids anyone from being married in God's eyes. This has nothing to do with "shacking up" due to the fact that it's more serious that a shacking up. I understand that you are to keep your wife forever and never divorce, only way to divorce is if your wife/husband cheats or if they shall past (death). But even in Hosea, he was married to a prostitute and was told to keep his wife, so in modern example would to be keep your spouse regardless if they commit sexual immorality towards your marriage. That is how serious marriage is but a lot of people take it for granted and don't fully follow God's word when it comes to how to divorce. God knows our hearts and intention, and my intentions are not to just shack up as most people would think. This is a serious commitment for life and no marriage license (paper) has the power to keep you together. It is the power of God.

 

[AgileFeet]

Now we've gotten to the meat.

None of those things is any kind of requirement for marriage. Not even in this society. No one would claim, "oh, they aren't really married cause they don't own a house". Yes, there will always be folks who think you shouldn't have gotten married for whatever reasons, but you aren't marrying them, so it doesn't matter what they think.

What does your fiance say?

Well I'm the one that came across this because I wanted to find out the true origins of marriage and where it came from. God created it from the beginning. God says to follow the law of the land but there is no law that forbids being married in His eyes. Only in the eyes of society and what other's think it doesn't appear right. But I know that my intentions are clean and good and I feel good about what I have come across. This isn't about "shacking up" as I stated before. But far as my fiance, she never thought about it due to what "society" usual does. It was never something that ever crossed her mind. I guess a lot of times we tend to follow suit without digging the roots of things. But she is fine with this, it would be something new but we are still going to get the "marriage license" in the future when finances meet.

 

[johpar0256]

Marriage existed before the state did. I don't need a marriage certificate to be a wife any more than I need a birth certificate to be a mother.

That being said, Paul exercised his rights/privileges as a Roman citizen, and I exercise my rights/privileges as a married citizen in the U.S. and therefore, the world. All of those legal rights/privileges come in the form of paperwork, so, yes, the paperwork is necessary.

God bless

I understand what you are saying but I feel marriage is a beautiful thing. It grows the bond and unfortunately many states still don't honor non-traditional relationships.

 

[AgileFeet]

If what you mean by "married under God" is just making a commitment to one another, with or without witnesses, with or without friends and family around, then no, that's not "married." First, the state will not recognize you as married, which, though it may not be important to you, results in a huge issues when it comes to filing taxes, getting health insurance coverage, or any insurance coverage for that matter, public endorsement of financial decisions, etc.

More importantly, are you married in the eyes of God? Let me ask you this: If baptism is supposed to be public, why wouldn't a marriage? God wants celebrations of the changes in our life when we are undertaking those changes in His name. So no, "married under God" as you appear to be defining it isn't marriage. By anyone's standards.

My state doesn't require witnesses to be married in their "Marriage License Laws". I think there is a big difference between "Marriage" and "Marriage License." Marriage is the bond between you, God, and your spouse. Marriage license is that legal paperwork for it to be looked at as a marriage within the state. Those are not two of the same things.

 

[IisJustMe]

My state doesn't require witnesses to be married in their "Marriage License Laws".

I don't believe I said they were. My comments were generic in nature, but intended to set up my following point.

I think there is a big difference between "Marriage" and "Marriage License."

That seems obvious, and I don't believe I equated the two. If I did, it was not my intent.

Marriage is the bond between you, God, and your spouse.

I gagree 100%. It goes without saying.

Marriage license is that legal paperwork for it to be looked at as a marriage within the state. Those are not two of the same things.

And again, I don't believe I said they were. If I did, again, I apologize. My point was that, in standing out under the stars, without the necessary paperwork, and declaring to God that you are husband and wife, you are bringing upon yourselves unnecessary hassles and complications from not being recognized by the state, your bank, doctors and hospitals and a host of other entities that need to know legally that you are married.

As I stated earlier, it is important that we honor God by obeying the authorities He has placed over us. If we choose not to do so, then we cannot complain of the difficulties those decisions cause us.

 

[seeingeyes]

Well I'm the one that came across this because I wanted to find out the true origins of marriage and where it came from. God created it from the beginning. God says to follow the law of the land but there is no law that forbids being married in His eyes. Only in the eyes of society and what other's think it doesn't appear right. But I know that my intentions are clean and good and I feel good about what I have come across. This isn't about "shacking up" as I stated before. But far as my fiance, she never thought about it due to what "society" usual does. It was never something that ever crossed her mind. I guess a lot of times we tend to follow suit without digging the roots of things. But she is fine with this, it would be something new but we are still going to get the "marriage license" in the future when finances meet.

Wait, I don't get it... if you both want to be married, and you both agree that the expectations of society can stuff it, then why not just get 'legally' married now?

 

[AgileFeet]

I don't believe I said they were. My comments were generic in nature, but intended to set up my following point. That seems obvious, and I don't believe I equated the two. If I did, it was not my intent.I gagree 100%. It goes without saying.And again, I don't believe I said they were. If I did, again, I apologize. My point was that, in standing out under the stars, without the necessary paperwork, and declaring to God that you are husband and wife, you are bringing upon yourselves unnecessary hassles and complications from not being recognized by the state, your bank, doctors and hospitals and a host of other entities that need to know legally that you are married.

As I stated earlier, it is important that we honor God by obeying the authorities He has placed over us. If we choose not to do so, then we cannot complain of the difficulties those decisions cause us.

I do agree to what you have stated and yes you have to obey the authorities, but the authorities do not state that you can't be married under God, if that was the case then marriage wouldn't be valid due to the fact that God created marriage. If the government stated that it was against the law to be married under God only, it would be a law and there is no such law. And yes, you are correct, we can't complain about the difficulties of society but God said be not of this world, so a lot of things that are worldly, I'm sure God understands one's intentions.

 

[Albion]

God says to follow the law of the land but there is no law that forbids being married in His eyes.

If you knew for a fact that playing house DID constitute marriage in his eyes.

But I know that my intentions are clean and good

at the moment. One of the basics of marriage is that you vow before the world that it is for life.

But far as my fiance, she never thought about it due to what "society" usual does. It was never something that ever crossed her mind.

Until you explained your idea to her. And what happens when you have a religious conversion, decide that your interpretation was defective, or for some other reason just walk away from it? No problem; society has no hold on you. Have you given any thought to the possibility that this isn't such a great deal for her, your good intentions aside? She will be seen as shacking up, despite your explanation about a marriage in God's eyes but not society's, and she will have no financial or property rights other than what she brings with her. And that's to say nothing about the wedding itself that never was--something that most young women dream of for years.

but we are still going to get the "marriage license" in the future when finances meet.

Exactly how expensive IS it for a marriage license? In my county it's $20.

You can't afford that right now but you can take on the responsibility of marriage??

 

[AgileFeet]

Until you explained your idea to her. And what happens when you have a religious conversion, decide that your interpretation was defective, or for some other reason just walk away from it? No problem; society has no hold on you, no expectation that you will keep your word to God, etc. as it would if you'd been married in the usual way.



Exactly how expensive IS it to register a marriage? Fifty dollars? If so, you can't afford to be married, no matter how it's defined.

I don't fully understand your last part, "If so, you can't afford to be married, no matter how it's defined." If my interpretation were to be defective I don't find it to be a serious offense due to the natural that I have kept my vow with my spouse and my promise to God to be with this woman no matter what, the usual way is still going to happen but just not right now due to the way that "society" looks at it, "They don't live together" etc. etc. Like I mentioned before, I understand why the marriage license was put into place, for protection and also to avoid abuse in society. There is no way to abuse it in God's eyes due to that fact that if you decided to leave your spouse for no reason other than cheating or death, you will be committing adultery. I've never been a follower, but I've always been about truth. Most things in society is tradition, not full truth from God. God's Word > Man's Thinkings/Words/Rules/Laws/Regulations/Theories.

 

[Albion]

I refined my previous post while you were composing your reply. May I ask you to read it now and then ask me whatever you want.

Please understand that I don't want to doubt your sincerity, but the more I look at the practical side of this, you are cheating your beloved out of something that, all theory aside, wouldn't kill you to endure...if you truly love and want the best for her.

 

[AgileFeet]

I refined my previous post while you were composing your reply. May I ask you to read it now and then ask me whatever you want.

Please understand that I don't want to doubt your sincerity, but the more I look at the practical side of this, you are cheating your beloved out of something that, all theory aside, wouldn't kill you to endure...if you truly love and want the best for her.

There is no fact stating that you can't be married under Him a lone. The world has nothing to do with who you make a vow to through God. The world doesn't justify God, God can only justify Himself. Your vow is to God that it is for life, not the world. The world could careless about who you love, what is love? God is Love. To know love you have to know God and His word. Quick example, God said there is to be no Homosexuality, look at the world trying to make Gay Marriage legal. God banned homosexuality from the start so how do you get into a gay marriage? By not knowing God's word. Gay marriage is except-able to the world, not God, thus making what the world thinks invalid to a believer of God's words in full. And I've already explained my idea to her for the past 3-4days I've been diving deeper into the word as to what is and what isn't right, staying up to 5-7am. The world, society can see it for whatever it is, they have nothing to do with my relationship with God and my future wife. There will be a marriage license and a wedding eventually but those things don't justify my strong love for her and God. I can afford a marriage license but she doesn't want to be "married under the state" right now until we both get to a point in our lives that we want to be at. And that being said, just because we aren't at the point doesn't make it not right for us to only be married under God. The big responsibility that comes with marriage is societal based. There will be struggles and not everything will be perfect, that's with any relationship, and with the power of God, He will help me keep my commitment and to get through any struggles with her that may come my way. I have faith in what I feel as well as God.

 

[seeingeyes]

I've never been a follower, but I've always been about truth.

Ok, but if you don't care what society thinks, and you don't have anything against marriages being recognized by the state, then why not just go get a license tomorrow?

If you are waiting to have a house and a car and a fancy suit, then you are, in fact, doing what 'society' thinks you should do. Don't pretend that you are somehow forging a new path by living together and putting off the wedding until you have more money. Every third person your age is doing the exact same thing. Now you may very well be more committed than they are, but don't fool yourself that you thinking outside of the box, here.

God bless

 

[AgileFeet]

Ok, but if you don't care what society thinks, and you don't have anything against marriages being recognized by the state, then why not just go get a license tomorrow?

If you are waiting to have a house and a car and a fancy suit, then you are, in fact, doing what 'society' thinks you should do. Don't pretend that you are somehow forging a new path by living together and putting off the wedding until you have more money. Every third person your age is doing the exact same thing. Now you may very well be more committed than they are, but don't fool yourself that you thinking outside of the box, here.

God bless

It's not me that's stopping me from getting a license, it's the fiance who doesn't want to get the license right now but in the future, and Wedding doesn't = Marriage. I assume you already know this.
God Bless