??Marriage Proposal??

[Drifster]

I've come to the understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that most Atheists believe that we are nothing more than a variant strain of virus that seems to thrive in an environment that harbors it's existence and growth. It's been frustrating as a Christian to try and get somebody who doesn't believe in God to understand that a "being or Entity" of overwhelming intelligence beyond our limited comprehension was capable of creating it all! I mean think about it...We are only capable of determining 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time(space/time) with our physical senses, and even those senses are only accurate in proportion to there limitations. How many possibilities are there that we are unable to physically perceive? Some reliable theoreticians now say that 10 or even 11 possible dimensions exist (M-Theory). So is the "theoretical dimension of Heaven" one of those possibilities? I'll take my chances that it is and keep my mind open to all...
I've read many books on science (too many) and many books on religion (too many), the reasoning of both always seem to try and disprove the other's logic in being. Religion seems to focus on "mind, spirit, soul", and science seems to focus on "matter, body". When one says T.O.E., the spiritual think of "Theology of Everything", the scientist thinks of "Theory of Everything". So would the question of "Why can't the 2 co-exist together in harmony seeking the same objective?
My analogy of it is like two people on opposite ends of a pond casting stones at each other and watching the ripples collide and cancel each other out. Now take the same two stone tossers and place them side by side. They cast their stones of logic across the same oceans of being and watch the ripples carry off in the same direction, ever expanding and enveloping the others wisdom as it flows out across the infinite waters of humanity with combined force. The end result that I'm trying to prove is "Integration" , until then we'll just continue to butt heads and get no wheres??...



I challenge debate or even questionable arguments to such!?! Please tell me in any terms either they be theological or scientific responses! I want to know the answers as much as anyone else...Believer or non-believer may it be!

 

[Aron-Ra]

I've come to the understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that most Atheists believe that we are nothing more than a variant strain of virus that seems to thrive in an environment that harbors it's existence and growth.

I'm an atheist, and I don't believe anything like that. I really have to doubt that you've read "too many" science books if you've come away with an impression like that.

It's been frustrating as a Christian to try and get somebody who doesn't believe in God to understand that a "being or Entity" of overwhelming intelligence beyond our limited comprehension was capable of creating it all!

If our senses are so limited than how do you know this? And how can I know it without having to rely on faith in lieu of evidence?

 

[michabo]

I challenge debate or even questionable arguments to such!?! Please tell me in any terms either they be theological or scientific responses! I want to know the answers as much as anyone else...Believer or non-believer may it be!

So the scientific and theological books disagree. Fine. How do you propose to determine who is correct? What process would you accept for validating a claim or falsifying a claim?

 

[Nathan David]

It's been frustrating as a Christian to try and get somebody who doesn't believe in God to understand that a "being or Entity" of overwhelming intelligence beyond our limited comprehension was capable of creating it all!

I understand that a being or entity of intelligence beyond our limited comprehension might be capable of creating it all. But I don't see any evidence that such an entity exists, or that creation by an intelligent entity is any more likely to be true than any other speculative idea about why the universe exists.

 

[jjdoe]

I understand that a being or entity of intelligence beyond our limited comprehension might be capable of creating it all. But I don't see any evidence that such an entity exists, or that creation by an intelligent entity is any more likely to be true than any other speculative idea about why the universe exists.

So I assume you deny the cosmological argument. Would you be willing to tell me why?

 

[CaDan]

I've come to the understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that most Atheists believe that we are nothing more than a variant strain of virus that seems to thrive in an environment that harbors it's existence and growth. It's been frustrating as a Christian to try and get somebody who doesn't believe in God to understand that a "being or Entity" of overwhelming intelligence beyond our limited comprehension was capable of creating it all! I mean think about it...We are only capable of determining 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time(space/time) with our physical senses, and even those senses are only accurate in proportion to there limitations. How many possibilities are there that we are unable to physically perceive? Some reliable theoreticians now say that 10 or even 11 possible dimensions exist (M-Theory). So is the "theoretical dimension of Heaven" one of those possibilities? I'll take my chances that it is and keep my mind open to all...
I've read many books on science (too many) and many books on religion (too many), the reasoning of both always seem to try and disprove the other's logic in being. Religion seems to focus on "mind, spirit, soul", and science seems to focus on "matter, body". When one says T.O.E., the spiritual think of "Theology of Everything", the scientist thinks of "Theory of Everything". So would the question of "Why can't the 2 co-exist together in harmony seeking the same objective?
My analogy of it is like two people on opposite ends of a pond casting stones at each other and watching the ripples collide and cancel each other out. Now take the same two stone tossers and place them side by side. They cast their stones of logic across the same oceans of being and watch the ripples carry off in the same direction, ever expanding and enveloping the others wisdom as it flows out across the infinite waters of humanity with combined force. The end result that I'm trying to prove is "Integration" , until then we'll just continue to butt heads and get no wheres??...



I challenge debate or even questionable arguments to such!?! Please tell me in any terms either they be theological or scientific responses! I want to know the answers as much as anyone else...Believer or non-believer may it be!

Here's the problem--it is much harder to argue than to quarrel. The amateurs on the ground would rather trade barbs than have a dialogue.

Serious theologians take science seriously. Serious scientists take religion seriously.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

Serious theologians take science seriously. Serious scientists take religion seriously.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jjdoe]

Here's the problem--it is much harder to argue than to quarrel. The amateurs on the ground would rather trade barbs than have a dialogue.

Serious theologians take science seriously. Serious scientists take religion seriously.

hmm..I like to take both seriously, what does that make me? Of course some days I take neither serious and just sit back and watch the football game.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

Serious theologians take science seriously. Serious scientists take religion seriously.

Tom Spurgeon has a new website, THE COMICS REPORTER located at http://www.comicsreporter.com/. Tom, who has written a book on Stan Lee and regularly contributes to THE COMICS JOURNAL, also wrote the WILDWOOD comic strip of a few years back, one of the very few (perhaps only!) overtly Christian comics in main stream syndication.

He has several samples on his site, but the one germain to this issue is the one where a character says, "Creationists believe in a world that created to have some people who believe in evolution in it, and evolutionists believe in a world that evolved so that some people believe creationism in it."

 

[jjdoe]

Tom Spurgeon has a new website, THE COMICS REPORTER located at http://www.comicsreporter.com/. Tom, who has written a book on Stan Lee and regularly contributes to THE COMICS JOURNAL, also wrote the WILDWOOD comic strip of a few years back, one of the very few (perhaps only!) overtly Christian comics in main stream syndication.

He has several samples on his site, but the one germain to this issue is the one where a character says, "Creationists believe in a world that created to have some people who believe in evolution in it, and evolutionists believe in a world that evolved so that some people believe creationism in it."

interesting. What about people who believe in a world that was created and evolved?

 

[Nathan David]

So I assume you deny the cosmological argument. Would you be willing to tell me why?

I thought I already did. No evidence, no sign of any intelligence in the universe but our own, no way to detect anything outside the universe or evidence that events inside the universe can be affected by anything outside.

 

[jjdoe]

I thought I already did. No evidence, no sign of any intelligence in the universe but our own, no way to detect anything outside the universe or evidence that events inside the universe can be affected by anything outside.

I'm sorry, if this is the only argument you can give, then you have failed to defend your beliefs. What about the big bang theory? What about first cause? Have you heard of Hubble's Law.
Hubble's law is the statement in astronomy that galaxies move away from each other, and that the velocity with which they recede is proportional to their distance. It leads to the picture of an expanding universe and, by extrapolating back in time, to the Big Bang theory. So what caused the big bang? How did something come out of nothing? Maybe you should reconsider your beliefs, and become an agnostic at best?

 

[Nathan David]

I'm sorry, if this is the only argument you can give, then you have failed to defend your beliefs. What about the big bang theory? What about first cause? Have you heard of Hubble's Law.
Hubble's law is the statement in astronomy that galaxies move away from each other, and that the velocity with which they recede is proportional to their distance. It leads to the picture of an expanding universe and, by extrapolating back in time, to the Big Bang theory. So what caused the big bang? How did something come out of nothing? Maybe you should reconsider your beliefs, and become an agnostic at best?

How does any of that consitute a sign of any intelligence in the universe but our own ... or evidence that events inside the universe can be affected by anything outside?

 

[jjdoe]

How does any of that consitute a sign of any intelligence in the universe but our own ... or evidence that events inside the universe can be affected by anything outside?

simple; the mere "coincidence" of the alignment our our planet in relationship to the support of life and stars. This would be one of many example. Now you can choose random luck over intelligence, it's up to you. Mind you, by choosing luck, your choice has no basis in scientific methodology or reason.

 

[Drifster]

I understand that a being or entity of intelligence beyond our limited comprehension might be capable of creating it all. But I don't see any evidence that such an entity exists, or that creation by an intelligent entity is any more likely to be true than any other speculative idea about why the universe exists.

So then in your opinion, we are nothing more than a virus? Is that the stance you're taking or do you have another theory?...As far as my OP, you seemed to have missed the very point I was trying to make...IMO, I cheer on the scientific community!! I certainly hope that someday they build some big-$$$ telescope and peek in it, and see God blinking back at them (metaphorically speaking).
In the end, if I'm wrong and you're right..we'll both physically die and our entire accumulative life of choices , circumstances and beliefs will die with us....on the other hand, if I'm right (and other believers) and God is there to greet us all with those same accumulations of choices, circumstances and beliefs...is your imputative logic going to be enough? I pray for your sake that God is forgiving enough to look beyond your doubts and find means to make you understand that "He" is beyond our puny , self-centered and limited perceptions!

 

[Drifster]

Here's the problem--it is much harder to argue than to quarrel. The amateurs on the ground would rather trade barbs than have a dialogue.

Serious theologians take science seriously. Serious scientists take religion seriously.

This is the input I'm seeking!

 

[Nathan David]

simple; the mere "coincidence" of the alignment our our planet in relationship to the support of life and stars.

How is that coincidence a sign of intelligence?

 

[jjdoe]

How is that coincidence a sign of intelligence?

Well I'm sure you've heard all the arguments; you've made your decision. As you may or not may not of gathered I've heard everything under the sun and am not convinced of your side. Would you still like to keep playing this game?

 

[Nathan David]

The only "argument" I've heard is that life is so unlikely to have arisen on it's own that it must have been the work of an intelligent designer.

No details on how the "likelihood" of life arising was calculated.

No evidence provided of intelligent design in the universe or in life on earth.

No explanation of how an extra-universal conscious entity would have the capability of creating or manipulating matter within the universe.

My "side" has nothing to convince you of. I'm not making a positive claim. I am rejecting a speculation made by others because I have seen no evidence to support that speculation.

 

[jjdoe]

The only "argument" I've heard is that life is so unlikely to have arisen on it's own that it must have been the work of an intelligent designer.

Hey, I'd be an atheist too if it was put this way. I'm not asking you to be an infamous ID'er.

No details on how the "likelihood" of life arising was calculated.

What's my other option?

No evidence provided of intelligent design in the universe or in life on earth.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe Einstein does as well.

No explanation of how an extra-universal conscious entity would have the capability of creating or manipulating matter within the universe.

Likewise, I have no evidence that an atom exists either. We have never observed an atom - what we have observed are signals from various types of instruments designed (in accordance with our understanding of the MODEL of the atom) . This is NOT AT ALL the same sense in which we observe a rock, a coin, or a computer keyboard (i.e. via "direct physical contact" - whatever THAT means!). Since all things are composed of atoms, by this definition, I have no evidence that you or I exist, no evidence the universe exists. Therefore, I believe nothing exists.

There's no evidence for the evaporation of blackholes. However, there are a set of theories at which we can choose to believe or reject. It's up to you.