Marriage course for couples living together - would you be happy with this@church

[mkgal1]

OK! this is the slippery slope of the issue, actually biblically speaking the church getting together was mainly for believers, it was to equip the church to go out and minister to the lost, if a person believed they were welcomed to join, today the church has changed its focus, it is not discipling Christians to develop a greater understanding of the things of God, and moving them from milk to deeper things, its keeping them all at such a low surface level of understanding that its even debatable whether people living togather unmarried is really a sin. why don't they understand this? because every sermon served is so watered down from any truth and conviction that in some of todays churches the word "SIN" never even gets mentioned.....most sermons don't delve any deeper than a common bible story...................if you have time, you should look at what Paul considered the elementary teachings and realize that todays church isn't even hitting the mark of elementary teachings

In a nutshell the church has not become a place where disciples are made, but where people gather and remain at the lowest rung of faith and knowledge of God, they are the most worldly bunch of believers ever to declare Jesus is Lord

On the bolded.....I agree with you. I have to be blunt, though.....you really should consider your delivery. You've read about the wheat and the tares....right?

What you are bringing up, though....is a separate issue.

 

[UK Fred]

yeah i'm afriad it is, having sex outside of marriage is a sin, its sexual immorality, those who practice it will not inherit salvation....sorry to burst your liberal bubble

Peggy Sue

I agree with you that Christians should not be allowing immorality in the church. There is a Scriptural requirement to deal with such, and a method given in Matthew 18 to help us do so with the minimum of fuss.

But this course is not just for those attending church. It is also a means of reaching out to those who live in the neighbourhood. I have no right, as a Christian to tell an unbeliever how to live. Way above my pay grade is that. What I have is a requirement to ensure that I have told everyone who comes into contact with me about the Gospel of Jesus. I don't have to worry abut whether they believe having heard it or not. I just need to be sure that they have heard it. The Spirit will convict.

Go back to my analogy of the shower and the clean clothes. The people inside have a responisibility to reprove anyone who gets their clean clothes dirty, to prevent dirt getting on their clean clothes, but they do not have any responsibility to ensure that the people coming for a shower are not too dirty. Let's face it, these showers have never been overcome by the dirt that some folks brought in in the past. We have no reason to believe that this fact or will ever change.

 

[peggy sue]

On the bolded.....I agree with you. I have to be blunt, though.....you really should consider your delivery. You've read about the wheat and the tares....right?

What you are bringing up, though....is a separate issue.

the wheat and the tares, thats if you consider Jesus was talking about the church as being the field and separating the people in the church as either tares or wheat, the explaination for the parable is in Mathew 13:37-42 Jesus makes the parable clear, He is refering to the church and the world outside the church, the tares are unbelievers, the wheat are believers

Jesus would not be an advocate for raising wheat with as many tares as you could get among them

 

[peggy sue]

Peggy Sue

I agree with you that Christians should not be allowing immorality in the church. There is a Scriptural requirement to deal with such, and a method given in Matthew 18 to help us do so with the minimum of fuss.

But this course is not just for those attending church. It is also a means of reaching out to those who live in the neighbourhood. I have no right, as a Christian to tell an unbeliever how to live. Way above my pay grade is that. What I have is a requirement to ensure that I have told everyone who comes into contact with me about the Gospel of Jesus. I don't have to worry abut whether they believe having heard it or not. I just need to be sure that they have heard it. The Spirit will convict.

Go back to my analogy of the shower and the clean clothes. The people inside have a responisibility to reprove anyone who gets their clean clothes dirty, to prevent dirt getting on their clean clothes, but they do not have any responsibility to ensure that the people coming for a shower are not too dirty. Let's face it, these showers have never been overcome by the dirt that some folks brought in in the past. We have no reason to believe that this fact or will ever change.

of course were not to make any judgements outside the church, that is one of Pauls mandates, however can you see how we get around his other mandate of making judgements in the church by simply allowing everyone to join a church regardless of what kind of sin they are bound with, now a church is filled with all kinds of people who are unrepentant and living in sin, and heres the crux of the problem the church no longer has a visible line from those outside and those who are in, so much so there is no judgements happening, and the church has made it incredibly easy for satans workers of iniquity to move right in and work almost without question or testimony,

who can question anyone in the church, the pastor won't, he wants their tithe, the consistory won't they want a full church, nobody questions anyone, this is not seen in the biblical church, elders and deacons are held to be up standing men, and meet a huge criteria of regulations, and they also would be there to lead others to the standards they have achieved, its called discipleship,a disciple is a "disciplined learner" how often is discipline ever heard of in todays church, at least the Catholics still ex-communicate people this is unheard of in any modern churches of today

 

[mkgal1]

Peggy Sue

I agree with you that Christians should not be allowing immorality in the church. There is a Scriptural requirement to deal with such, and a method given in Matthew 18 to help us do so with the minimum of fuss.

But this course is not just for those attending church. It is also a means of reaching out to those who live in the neighbourhood. I have no right, as a Christian to tell an unbeliever how to live. Way above my pay grade is that. What I have is a requirement to ensure that I have told everyone who comes into contact with me about the Gospel of Jesus. I don't have to worry abut whether they believe having heard it or not. I just need to be sure that they have heard it. The Spirit will convict.

Go back to my analogy of the shower and the clean clothes. The people inside have a responisibility to reprove anyone who gets their clean clothes dirty, to prevent dirt getting on their clean clothes, but they do not have any responsibility to ensure that the people coming for a shower are not too dirty. Let's face it, these showers have never been overcome by the dirt that some folks brought in in the past. We have no reason to believe that this fact or will ever change.

Exactly! Also.....truth and grace should never be separated from each other.

 

[mkgal1]

the wheat and the tares, thats if you consider Jesus was talking about the church as being the field and separating the people in the church as either tares or wheat, the explaination for the parable is in Mathew 13:37-42 Jesus makes the parable clear, He is refering to the church and the world outside the church, the tares are unbelievers, the wheat are believers

Jesus would not be an advocate for raising wheat with as many tares as you could get among them

I disagree (not with the part about Jesus making it clear---that I agree with)....but, as to whether He has referring to the church--I disagree.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 f "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are g the sons of the wicked one.

 

[mkgal1]

who can question anyone in the church, the pastor won't, he wants their tithe, the consistory won't they want a full church, nobody questions anyone, this is not seen in the biblical church, elders and deacons are held to be up standing men, and meet a huge criteria of regulations, and they also would be there to lead others to the standards they have achieved, its called discipleship,a disciple is a "disciplined learner" how often is discipline ever heard of in todays church, at least the Catholics still ex-communicate people this is unheard of in any modern churches of today

So....are you saying that you haven't found ONE church that will do this....confront those living in iniquity (*IF* there is anyone living in iniquity)? That there are NO Biblical churches left?

If so.....I disagree. That would mean there is NO light left in this world.

 

[mkgal1]

the wheat and the tares, thats if you consider Jesus was talking about the church as being the field and separating the people in the church as either tares or wheat, the explaination for the parable is in Mathew 13:37-42 Jesus makes the parable clear, He is refering to the church and the world outside the church, the tares are unbelievers, the wheat are believers

Jesus would not be an advocate for raising wheat with as many tares as you could get among them

Even if you go with the idea that Jesus was speaking of the church---which is still fitting, as there still will be many that call Him, "Lord", yet He never knew them (based on Scripture)..........my point still remains about your delivery.....and that what you are bringing up isn't related to the OP.

 

[UK Fred]

who can question anyone in the church, the pastor won't, he wants their tithe, the consistory won't they want a full church, nobody questions anyone, this is not seen in the biblical church, elders and deacons are held to be up standing men, and meet a huge criteria of regulations, and they also would be there to lead others to the standards they have achieved, its called discipleship,a disciple is a "disciplined learner" how often is discipline ever heard of in todays church, at least the Catholics still ex-communicate people this is unheard of in any modern churches of today

The ordinary church member can. And he or she can instigate the Matthew 18 procedure if the leadership will not. But the problem then is not that X has been doing Y. The problem then is that the church leadership have been aware of sin happening with church members and have done nothing about it. Watch Henry Cloud's video, "The Process of Dealing With a Fool" and apply it to your church situation. Good grief, show it It will make the clever ones think and the less clever just laugh with Henry Cloud as he goes through things. It means being willing to put your head above the parapet at church, but hey, if they want to bash us or come out with fallacious pseudo-Scritural arguments, we just have to be sure that we are better prepared than they are. Sin is like a weed. It grows where it is not wanted best of all. So you need to use spiritual roundup, not spiritual pathclear within the church.

 

[mkgal1]

The ordinary church member can. And he or she can instigate the Matthew 18 procedure if the leadership will not. But the problem then is not that X has been doing Y. The problem then is that the church leadership have been aware of sin happening with church members and have done nothing about it. Watch Henry Cloud's video, "The Process of Dealing With a Fool" and apply it to your church situation. Good grief, show it It will make the clever ones think and the less clever just laugh with Henry Cloud as he goes through things. It means being willing to put your head above the parapet at church, but hey, if they want to bash us or come out with fallacious pseudo-Scritural arguments, we just have to be sure that we are better prepared than they are. Sin is like a weed. It grows where it is not wanted best of all. So you need to use spiritual roundup, not spiritual pathclear within the church.

Maybe a different thread?

 

[eatenbylocusts]

Exactly!! Telling people---or even just suggesting---that others are doing things the "wrong" way, will only turn them away. We all need to know a reason "why" to do things differently. The best way to compel someone is with the truth. They can then take it or leave it, but at minimum...that should be offered to everyone....especially those that are deliberately seeking it out.

Disagree. Ray Comfort (livingwaters.com) evangelizes by confronting people with the 10 commandments (The Law). Once you realize you're a sinner and need a savior, you are more likely to make a decision for Christ for the right reason, not to "have a better life".

 

[eatenbylocusts]

Pretty sure that divorce is a much bigger problem than cohabitation. And grace, how can you act holier than thou and yet still scream at people who disagree with you? You are not God, so dial it back and humble yourself a bit to intelligent discourse, not simplistic scream fests. Like it or not, there is a huge swath of people without biblical knowledge out there, who could be drawn to this course by the simple fact that it is being put out there into the community, and the pastor doesn't seem to take as much pleasure in people who don't know or don't believe simply heading for hell without a shot at hearing the Word in a new way as you do.

I've only read the first 3 pages, but perhaps the OP is suprised and shocked to be reading some of the posts. Perhaps she is a bit disgusted that it is becoming so commonplace to water down scripture and the 10 commandments and that Christians have to be politically correct and not call sin, sin.

 

[Boidae]

Disagree. Ray Comfort (livingwaters.com) evangelizes by confronting people with the 10 commandments (The Law). Once you realize you're a sinner and need a savior, you are more likely to make a decision for Christ for the right reason, not to "have a better life".

Hearing that drove me away further and further from Christ. It wasn't until my wife (girlfriend at the time) showed me what it was to have Christ in her life and how she feared nothing, and stressed about nothing even in the face of her multiple sclerosis that I opened my heart to Christ.

The law kept me away, yet love brought me in and then I was confronted with the law.

God knows what each person needs to hear, and He knows that not all will come to Him because they hear the law.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of what Rob Bell says, this video is very true.

Bullhorn Guy - YouTube


Our church played this video to teach us that beating people over the head with the law of the Bible tends to turn more people away then it does to draw them in.

I know everyone has heard this saying, and it applies very well here. "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

 

[McScribe]

I don't understand why this is an either/or thing. The message of the Gospel is that the wages of sin are death, but that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Today on our Good Friday service I was thinking of a quote from the movie "Amazing Grace" in which the reformed slave trader says, "I know that I am a great sinner, and that he is a great saviour." The songs are apt. I feel no more worthy to receive God's grace than anyone who might seem unworthy to be in a church based marriage class. I am a sinner. I struggle not to be, I am saved solely by God's grace. It is because of this grace that I must be more like Jesus. One of the things he says is "what you do unto the least of these, you do to me." He also said he was not sent to the healthy but to the sick.

Just because my sins may not be as obvious as those of a person coming in cohabiting and wanting to attend a marriage class doesn't mean that they aren't sins and displeasing to God, requiring my repentance and His forgiveness.

 

[eddy314]

I have held off commenting on this because it seems to generate more heat than light on the topic. I believe the original comment and discussion began when someone took offence (or was bothered by) the fact that a pastor was going to include couples "shacking up" in the marriage course.

What is the concern? Is it that you thought this would endorse "shacking up"? or did you think that somehow, the topic of sexuality was just for us married folks? Just in case you are wondering...I have 38 years under my belt... and would have benefit greatly had the pastor suggested a marriage course back then!

It seems to me, that the issue here is how to present the topic. Sexuality has for years been a stumbling block for many Christians. We tend to fall into the "pendulum syndrome" when dealing with it. By that I mean we tend to go to the extremes on either side of the issue. It is tough to find the middle ground when faced with folks who only see black or white. The shade of grey comes into play when people who are "living together" or "shacking-up" are standing in the midst of the "Christian community" and we cannot get our act together long enough to put aside our "arguments" and help them understand the picture marriage presents.
To think, or pretend that these folks are not sexually active is laughable. They are, or they wouldn't be living together. For us to bury our heads and say, "they are worthy or eligible to attend because they don't have a certificate is equally laughable.
Why would you not make the class an opportunity to share the joy of a married relationship with couples who obviously are seeking something in their lives?
My answer to that question, might be that we, as Christians, don't want to let the "sinners" know that we too struggle with sexuality! It is not an easy part of life for many people, whether they are "married" or not! Whether they are Christians or not! Sexuality is a complex, extremely powerful segment of humanity...it can bring us tremendous joy, pleasure, bonding, and yet polarize, alienate, hurt us and devastate our lives. But God, in His wisdom, designed and created it.
For years, we as Christians have backed away from the topic .... we can't talk about it, we don't "do it"... and now we find ourselves behind in our understanding and appreciation for a part of life that should bring us tremendous joy and instead causing pain and misunderstanding.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

Hearing that drove me away further and further from Christ. It wasn't until my wife (girlfriend at the time) showed me what it was to have Christ in her life and how she feared nothing, and stressed about nothing even in the face of her multiple sclerosis that I opened my heart to Christ.

The law kept me away, yet love brought me in and then I was confronted with the law.

God knows what each person needs to hear, and He knows that not all will come to Him because they hear the law.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of what Rob Bell says, this video is very true.


Our church played this video to teach us that beating people over the head with the law of the Bible tends to turn more people away then it does to draw them in.

I know everyone has heard this saying, and it applies very well here. "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

I'm not sure how the law was presented to you that drove you away, but now everyone who presents the law is doing it like bullhorn guy. I don't agree with most of Bell's video and am curious if he is doing anything to evangelize. What he says on his video sounds a lot like the feel good sermons that have become very popular....God loves everyone, which doesn't give any urgency to any sinner to change his ways. John 3:36 says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

I was raised in the church and responded at age 10 when asked if I wanted to go to Heaven when I died. I thought I was saved at that time, but I really don't think I was truly converted until I was 21 and was confronted in my Spirit by my sin through the heartbreak of a cheating fiance. I truly understood I was a sinner at that point and asked for forgiveness and asked God to be Lord of my life. My brother grew up just as I did and responded to a similar message. He now is married to a non-believer and doesn't go to church and has some alternate views of all religious paths leading to some kind of "god".

There is a book called God has a wonderful plan for your life that really explains how dangerous it is to tell people that you will be happier if you make a decision for God. There are many Christians going through some bad stuff and those being persecuted and killed because of their faith or just because bad stuff happens. God doesn't promise us that everything will be great in this life and there are people who then stop going to church when life gets rough because the promises don't come true. Ray Comfort calls these folks false converts. He explains that many who respond to those feel good altar calls are false converts. Many never get involved in church and some just stop going after a while, but they still think they will be saved because they said a prayer years ago. A true conversion involves turning from sin and trusting in Jesus.

Ray Comfort doesn't focus on a particular sin and condemn; you start with a few of the 10 commandments, ie lying, blaspheming, looking with lust on another and let the law condemn the sinner. The Holy Spirit does the work. He also doesn't have people repeat a "sinner's prayer". There is no sinner's prayer in the Bible. Comfort asks people "do business with God".

But, there isn't just one way to evangelize. Like your wife, our lives should be a light that attracts some to Christ. But, that same light also offends those that oppose Christ.

Gotta run. Going out to breakfast.

 

[Boidae]

I'm not sure how the law was presented to you that drove you away, but now everyone who presents the law is doing it like bullhorn guy. I don't agree with most of Bell's video and am curious if he is doing anything to evangelize. What he says on his video sounds a lot like the feel good sermons that have become very popular....God loves everyone, which doesn't give any urgency to any sinner to change his ways. John 3:36 says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

I was raised in the church and responded at age 10 when asked if I wanted to go to Heaven when I died. I thought I was saved at that time, but I really don't think I was truly converted until I was 21 and was confronted in my Spirit by my sin through the heartbreak of a cheating fiance. I truly understood I was a sinner at that point and asked for forgiveness and asked God to be Lord of my life. My brother grew up just as I did and responded to a similar message. He now is married to a non-believer and doesn't go to church and has some alternate views of all religious paths leading to some kind of "god".

There is a book called God has a wonderful plan for your life that really explains how dangerous it is to tell people that you will be happier if you make a decision for God. There are many Christians going through some bad stuff and those being persecuted and killed because of their faith or just because bad stuff happens. God doesn't promise us that everything will be great in this life and there are people who then stop going to church when life gets rough because the promises don't come true. Ray Comfort calls these folks false converts. He explains that many who respond to those feel good altar calls are false converts. Many never get involved in church and some just stop going after a while, but they still think they will be saved because they said a prayer years ago. A true conversion involves turning from sin and trusting in Jesus.

Ray Comfort doesn't focus on a particular sin and condemn; you start with a few of the 10 commandments, ie lying, blaspheming, looking with lust on another and let the law condemn the sinner. The Holy Spirit does the work. He also doesn't have people repeat a "sinner's prayer". There is no sinner's prayer in the Bible. Comfort asks people "do business with God".

But, there isn't just one way to evangelize. Like your wife, our lives should be a light that attracts some to Christ. But, that same light also offends those that oppose Christ.

Gotta run. Going out to breakfast.

It was presented to me in that I am to follow the ten commandments and if I don't repent, I'm going to hell. There was not a thing about grace in any message that I ever heard until my wife came along.

I am more of a fight instead of flight kinda guy. So when someone backs me into a corner I start fighting. I don't like being backed into a corner. The majority of people that I know are that way. So when being confronted with nothing but law and that if you don't repent you're going to hell. While that is true, telling someone who has a fight response more than likely will not be receptive.

Honey is what attracted me, not vinegar. If anyone did to me what bullhorn guy does in that video I would fight back as I would feel backed into a corner. God knew exactly what it would take in order for me to come to Him. This course could most certainly be used in that way, to attract those that he knows will come to Him after hearing this kind of message.

My wife and I aren't involved with our current church, not because we don't want to be, but rather because distance is an issue. We live 25 mile from our current church and with gas prices topping $4.00 a gallon and having older cars that don't get good gas mileage, traveling that far has become a bit of a burden just the once a week that they have service.

Also we can't really plan anything because of my wife's illness. She hates to plan things because she doesn't know how she will feel day-to-day, so we tend not to make commitments.

With that said, we're certainly not false converts, just limited by our current situation.

 

[Avniel]

I've only read the first 3 pages, but perhaps the OP is suprised and shocked to be reading some of the posts. Perhaps she is a bit disgusted that it is becoming so commonplace to water down scripture and the 10 commandments and that Christians have to be politically correct and not call sin, sin.

I don't think the argument is about it being a sin or not more so should Christians be able to be selective on who hears what.

 

[eddy314]

If the debate is about having couples who are not married attend a marriage seminar and you don't want to discuss intimacy with them present, does that same discomfort extend to having non-Christians but married, attend the discussion?

Just curious to find where the real discomfort is in all of

this.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Disagree. Ray Comfort (livingwaters.com) evangelizes by confronting people with the 10 commandments (The Law). Once you realize you're a sinner and need a savior, you are more likely to make a decision for Christ for the right reason, not to "have a better life".

I am not really getting into the discussion here, but I wanted to comment on one thing. I think people often mistakenly refer to the ten commandments as,"the law." I think that is a misconception. When Paul talks about the law, as in opposition to grace, he is specifically referring to ceremonial law. Even more specifically, circumcision. The ten commandments is what God refers to as,"My law" as in, what He, "will write on their hearts." The essence of the Ten Commandments is summed up in loving God completely, and loving others as yourself. If you do that, the ten commandments are covered. However, you can love God, and love others, and still break several ceremonial laws. Iow, any time we break one on the ten commandments, we are showing the condition of our hearts, where as depending upon ceremonial law to save you, is to put your faith in the law, rather than Jesus. Lumping those two things together,(the 10 Commandments and the ceremonial law) is absolutely not a good thing to do, and will cause us to be misled.