Mark of the Beast

Spiritual Jew said:

Your interpretation of that passage is what is fallible. So, you think that all these unbelievers in the house of Israel will just automatically be saved because of their nationality?

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I never said saved because of their nationality.

Douggg said:

I never said saved because of their nationality.

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That is implied from what you said. How else should we understand what you said here:

Douggg said:

Jesus Himself is speaking in v21-29 having returned to earth.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

...meaning he has come back having just judged the heathen who will have gathered to make war on him in v17-20.

Next verse, the house of Israel who currently don't believe that Jesus is God, the Lord, will know Jesus as the Lord their God.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

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How exactly do these people from "the house of Israel who currently don't believe that Jesus is God, the Lord" come to "know Jesus as the Lord their God"? And how will they escape His vengeance when He comes? In other words, why would 2 Thess 1:7-10 not apply to them?

Douggg said:

Well, the woman does not have reins on the beast - so she is not controlling the beast.

The beast is carrying the woman, i.e. supporting her. The beast in Revelation 17 is scarlet colored and represents Satan. The inscription on the woman's head also ties back to Satan's influence on the woman. She herself is not Babylon the Great.

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Ummm. Perhaps you need to read the Scripture, @Douggg, again.

Rev 17:1-3
(1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
(2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
(3) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

First, do you notice that the beast is also many waters which the woman sits? Think about it.

And to sit means to rule! She influences the world (aka, kings of the earth).

Rev 18:3
(3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Do you think God is talking about physical nations and kings, presidents, prime ministers here? No think again.

And look at how the antichrist sits (rules) in God's congregation:

2Th 2:3-4
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Sit means rule. So yes, Babylon rules the beast. The problem is you do not know the beast really is. It is a spiritual kingdom making up of unbelievers (many waters).

she herself is not Babylon the Great.

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No? Who should we listen to? You or God? Didn't you read the Scripture?

Rev 17:3-5
(3) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
(4) And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
(5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Well God said that this woman is indeed Mystery Babylon the Great. Her forehead says so. So by what authority of God's Word do you deny this woman is Babylon?

Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels.

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(Chuckle). Please show me the Scripture where God exactly said that Satan and his third of angles are identified as Babylon the Great. Chapter and verses, please. Not your speculation!

the little horn person will be king 7 of the 7 kings, the one to come.

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Person? Did God say this or you are adding something to His Scripture? This is a good example of why your doctrine is based on speculations, not surrendering to what the Word of God actually says.

Spiritual Jew said:

How exactly do these people from "the house of Israel who currently don't believe that Jesus is God, the Lord" come to "know Jesus as the Lord their God"? And how will they escape His vengeance when He comes? In other words, why would 2 Thess 1:7-10 not apply to them?

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1. during the first 1260 days of the 7 years, the two witnesses to the Jews will be warning them that the Antichrist is not the messiah, but Jesus is.

2. when the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin - claiming to be God - and not the messiah after all, that is when the Jews turn to Jesus, and reject the revealed man of sin.

3. The vengeance taken out them in 2Thess 1:7-10 is on them who believe the beast's claim of being God. The strong delusion that God sends to them is that He brings the beast back to life - making them who first believe the revealed man of sin's claim of having to achieved God-hood as being true - instead of the lie it will be.

Douggg said:

1. during the first 1260 days of the 7 years, the two witnesses to the Jews will be warning them that the Antichrist is not the messiah, but Jesus is.

2. when the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin - claiming to be God - and not the messiah after all, that is when the Jews turn to Jesus, and reject the revealed man of sin.

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In the post of yours that I quoted you were talking about them coming to Jesus AFTER He returns. What is your explanation for that? Again, this is what you said:

Douggg said:

Jesus Himself is speaking in v21-29 having returned to earth.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

...meaning he has come back having just judged the heathen who will have gathered to make war on him in v17-20.

Next verse, the house of Israel who currently don't believe that Jesus is God, the Lord, will know Jesus as the Lord their God.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

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You're talking about people coming to "know Jesus as the Lord their God" after Jesus "having returned to earth". How does that happen? Scripture says faith in Christ is required to be saved. No faith would be needed at that point if Jesus was right there in front of them in all His glory.

3. The vengeance taken out them in 2Thess 1:7-10 is on them who believe the beast's claim of being God. The strong delusion that God sends to them is that He brings the beast back to life - making them who first believe the revealed man of sin's claim of having to achieved God-hood as being true - instead of the lie it will be.

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That isn't what the passage says. It clearly says He will take vengeance on those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ.

But, you have people from the house of Israel who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ escaping His vengeance when He comes. Where did Paul make any exceptions in 2 Thess 1:7-10 regarding unbelievers from the house of Israel being excepted from Christ's vengeance?

Douggg said:

1. during the first 1260 days of the 7 years, the two witnesses to the Jews will be warning them that the Antichrist is not the messiah, but Jesus is.

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God did not say that, @Douggg. You make it up (again)! You got the identity of Two Witnesses wrong. It is not two literal men preaching to the Jews in national Israel only. The Two Witnesses are the CHURCH, the very CHRISTIANS who received power to preach. Please compare the Scripture carefully:

Rev 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

God was not talking about two men warning the Jews about the antichrist. No. God was about HIS PEOPLE who received power with the Holy Ghost since Pentecost to preach. PReach what? GOOD NEWS! That is our great commission. The church has gone to the end of the world with the Gospel! The Two Witnesses is a true Church, not two literal men. The number two in Scripture means "truth", therefore, to God's eyes, His witnesses symbolically coming with the Truth. That is why they are Two Witnesses.

2. when the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin - claiming to be God - and not the messiah after all, that is when the Jews turn to Jesus, and reject the revealed man of sin.

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Read Scripture again:

2Th 2:2-4
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Tell me, how will the man of sin be revealed to the Elect? And what temple of God on this side of the Cross where antichrist shall be revealed? This is the temple where the abomination of desolation stands in it. What temple is it, really!? Do you think God is talking about a rebuilt third temple in Jerusalem? Think again. Didn't Scripture tell you that the church is God's New Testament Holy Temple since Pentecost?!

3. The vengeance taken out them in 2Thess 1:7-10 is on them who believe the beast's claim of being God. The strong delusion that God sends to them is that He brings the beast back to life - making them who first believe the revealed man of sin's claim of having to achieved God-hood as being true - instead of the lie it will be.

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Huh?! I knew the Scripture does not say this. It's just more of your speculations. You need to learn to quote Scripture to back your doctrine up.

Spiritual Jew said:

You're talking about people coming to "know Jesus as the Lord their God" after Jesus "having returned to earth". How does that happen?

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In v21-29, Jesus is recapping 2000 years of the Jews going into captivity for rejecting him. And their having come to believe in him in the 7 years before he returns. When in the 7 years is in Revelation 12:10. In the middle part of the 7 years.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Ezekiel 39 is the timeline framework of end time events. Gog/Magog; then the 7 years; then Armageddon; Jesus's return to earth.

Spiritual Jew said:

But, you have people from the house of Israel who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ escaping His vengeance when He comes. Where did Paul make any exceptions in 2 Thess 1:7-10 regarding unbelievers from the house of Israel being excepted from Christ's vengeance?

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The house of Israel currently rejects Jesus. However, in the middle of the 7 years, they will change their minds and believe upon him.

But other people of the world will believe the revealed man of sin's lie. They will be the ones who take the mark.

Douggg said:

In v21-29, Jesus is recapping 2000 years of the Jews going into captivity for rejecting him. And their having come to believe in him in the 7 years before he returns. When in the 7 years is in Revelation 12:10. In the middle part of the 7 years.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Ezekiel 39 is the timeline framework of end time events. Gog/Magog; then the 7 years; then Armageddon; Jesus's return to earth.

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That is pretty messed up, @Douggg. Nothing in Revelation 12 is talking about 7 literal years prior to Christ's return.

Rev 12:4-6
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman is God's congregation, starting with Old Testament Israel. She brought forth a man-child (Jesus Christ) and he went back up into heaven to His Throne at his ascendent. Then the woman, as God's congregation, NOW REPRESENTS the New Testament Church, fled into the wilderness (world) where she is being fed with Gospel for a symbolical 1,260 days.

Rev 12:7-10
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Remember the war in Jerusalem?

Isa 40:1-3
(1) Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
(2) Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
(3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

It is not the literal city of Jerusalem God was talking about. It was His people, the congregation of God. First, the Old Testament congregation that FELL in the war, but Christ rebuilt her and cast Satan and his angels (false prophets and christs) out of Old Testament congregation where she is no longer a representative of God's Kingdom. That is why Christ directed His congregation to flee to the world (wilderness) and feed with His Gospel.

This is where salvation and strength of the Kingdom of God can be found! Church! With Satan restrained or cast down, the church is able to go out and preach Gospel to spoil (saves) people for God for the whole New Testament period (symbolically 1,260 days). This is the job of Two Witnesses which you totally missed!

After 1,260 days, when the great commission of Two Witnesses is accomplished or finished with all Elect secured into the Kingdom of God. Only then God will allow the beast to come out of the bottomless pit (unloosened) to overcome and silence the truthful testimony by Two Witnesses because salvation has ended. And the Great Tribulation will begin for a little season with Satan being revealed through the false prophets and Christs IN GOD'S CONGREGATION. This is where Satan wants to rule! God uses Satan to deceive the unfaithful people of His Congregation to believe a lie. This is when God commanded his Elect to come out when they see the abomination of desolation standing therein (in their church).

See? This has nothing to do with Jerusalem or Israel in the Middle East which is why premillennialists are being blind thinking that things have not yet fulfilled over there while the whole Great Tribulation takes place upon Churches (woman) all over the world where the Beast (many waters) can be found?

Selah? Only Christ can opens your eyes.

Douggg said:

The house of Israel currently rejects Jesus. However, in the middle of the 7 years, they will change their minds and believe upon him.

But other people of the world will believe the revealed man of sin's lie. They will be the ones who take the mark.

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No @Douggg . Not going to happen the way you predict. You got wrong Israel. There won't be 7 years period for the Jews in the Middle East. There won't be a literal mark of the beast upon all people. The mark of the beast is already being sealed... IN THE CONGREGATION OF GOD (after Two Witnesses' testimony is finished) if you know what it really is. It is a spiritual mark upon the UNFAITHFUL CHRISTIANS (the ones who have not yet sealed by God, Revelation 9) where they show their allegiance to Satan... by believing a LIES that comes out of the mouths of false prophets and christs who are running their churches! This is how God's Elect can "see" Satan being revealed through the false prophets so they are leaving the church to avoid the plagues (judgment) of God. Guess as Christ warned in Matthew 25, the foolish virgins won't be able to "see", "understand", or "deny" what's wrong going on in their church in her darkest hour (midnight), so Elect (wise virgins) send the foolish virgins to those who sells oil (hint: The false prophets in their church. This is how the mark of the beast be given!). It is a judgment of God upon her! This is where unsaved Christians are decevied or supporting the feel-good gospel, political gospel, wealth-building ministry, women pastors, transgender pastors, speaking in tongues, supporting or funding national Israel, healing ministries, love of God grows cold, and entertainments with modern music and bands, etc. etc. that are growing at an alarming rate!

This is Babylon the Great who is being judged that you can't even notice? Only those with Spirit of Christ in order to understand which is why Jesus warned:

Mat 24:15
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Do you honestly believe Christ wanted His people to understand about a literal thing standing in Temple Mount in Jerusalem in 70AD or in the future in the modern nation of Israel? Seriously? Listen, the abomination of desolation only can stand IN A WOMAN who has become unfaithful! She was supposed to represent the kingdom of God as the holy place on this side of the Cross! National Israel does NOT qualify and was never holy since the Cross! Not even today! So you need to think who is this woman really is. That is why she is a mystery to many, especially Christians who do not have the oil to "see"!

Sorry, the understanding is only possible with spiritual discernment and frankly, you are looking at the wrong place, just like the Jews in Christ's days concerning His Temple!

Douggg said:

The house of Israel currently rejects Jesus. However, in the middle of the 7 years, they will change their minds and believe upon him.

But other people of the world will believe the revealed man of sin's lie. They will be the ones who take the mark.

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Doug, I'm assuming you believe this because Paul said that a remnant would be saved in Romans 9:27 "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved". Am I correct in assuming that? Or do you have another reason for believing that the Jews will "change their minds"?

Freedm said:

Doug, I'm assuming you believe this because Paul said that a remnant would be saved in Romans 9:27 "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved". Am I correct in assuming that? Or do you have another reason for believing that the Jews will "change their minds"?

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It is a "sign" that the remnant of Israel should be healed, spiritually to receive hearing because of Christ. So we have a judgment for offense against Christ, and Christ bringing healing to his hearing. the scenario is that the hour of darkness was at hand, all have forsaken Christ. In spiritual terms, every sword was against Him. Even Peter denies Christ 3 times, but the picture is that the Lord returns with Mercy upon the remnant of Israel, in healing them that they might hear. For example, read the Prophesy of the judgment of Israel and the Messenger of the Covenant (Christ) coming:

Malachi 4:1-6

• "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
• But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
• And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
• Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
• Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
• And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

A commentary on which of course in found in the birth of John the Baptist (the fulfillment of this Elijah prophesy) found in:

Luke 1:15-17

• "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
• And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
• And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Which is the long way of saying, Christ is the healing of the remnant of Israel that they might hear and be saved. This is why He did so many miracles of making the blind see, and the deaf to hear! Not so that people would believe him because of the Miracles (even though they should have) but because these are signs symbolizing the salvation of Israel. We see Israel should have known by the signs that this was the Messenger of the Covenant sent to redeem Israel. the healing of the sear of the servant of the High Priest of Israel, just another "sign" of the ministry of Christ. You may also see this in the episode of John the Baptist desiring to know if Jesus was the Messiah/Christ. Jesus' answer was of the "SIGNS." Selah.

Matthew 11:2-6

• "Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
• And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
• Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
• The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
• And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Healing of the ear was just another "sign" that Christ was the one who was prophesied to come that the remnant of Israel might hear. This is the Messenger of the Covenant which Malachi speaks of as Coming with Healing for Israel. The same healing for Israel that Christ signified by healing the ear of him who came against him with staves and sword. For example, this man didn't deserve healing, he deserved the swift judgment of the sword, signified by Peter lopping off his ear. But Christ took this one man who least of all deserved it, and healed him simply by Grace! And this is the same spiritual picture that permeates all of scripture. For example, Barabbas, a criminal guilty as sin, was set free instead of Christ's (his name actually means Son of the father) a "sign" or spiritual picture of Israel being the one worthy of death, but being set free because Christ was condemned to death in his stead. Set free because he was one of a remnant who was a "son of the father." Selah!

Now I realize that not everyone will get this, accept it, nor even understand it, nevertheless, it is the Spiritual truth of scripture. Just a small snippet of the intricacies of scripture, and just one of a million reasons why no man or group of men could have ever written the Holy Bible. Only the mind of God could inspire such a book.

Bottom line, Christ healed the remnant of Israel, not all Israel. Unless we mean, all the Israel of God, which is all who are Chosen.

Isaiah 10:20-22

• "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant
  of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness."

So, to make a long story short, Jesus suffers me thus far and healed the servant of the high Priest to symbolize that though they come against him with swords and staves, yet a remnant of Israel should be healed and hear.

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: -Romans 9:27"

Ligurian said:

Mystery Babylon is the throne of the whole inhabited world, and she is what controls the Beast... like the rider controls the horse. At this point in time, I believe that Mystery Babylon is the little horn. Three are uprooted. There are only 7 horns on the dragon when he is in place to kill the two witnesses as soon as they Resurrect.

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TribulationSigns said:

Wow...purely speculation without Bible support.

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Then maybe you're the one who can answer these questions.

Where is the horn that should be on the 8th Kingdom?

Rev.13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Why are the first three beasts of Daniel not rooted out?
Who are those three horns rooted-out of the beast?
Why don't the other horns have the eyes of a man?
Why is the dragon shown here after the three horns are gone?

Dan.7:8 I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things.
Rev.17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev.12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Freedm said:

Doug, I'm assuming you believe this because Paul said that a remnant would be saved in Romans 9:27 "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved". Am I correct in assuming that? Or do you have another reason for believing that the Jews will "change their minds"?

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Esaias 10:20 "And it shall come to pass in that day that the remnant of Israel shall no more join themselves with, and the saved of Jacob shall no more trust in, them that injured them; but they shall trust in the Holy God of Israel, in truth. 21 And the remnant of Jacob shall trust on the mighty God. 22 And though the people of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be saved. 23 He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because the Lord will make a short work in all the world. 24 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, Be not afraid, My people who dwell in Sion, of the Assyrians, because he shall smite thee with a rod..."

Wasn't that prophecy fulfilled by the captivity of the 10-northern-tribes?

Ligurian said:

Then maybe you're the one who can answer these questions.

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Actually, it is you who need to answer the questions first:

1.) What is the Biblical definition of the Beast in Scripture?
2.) What is the Biblical definition of the Horn in Scripture?
3.) What is the Biblical definition of the Head in Scripture?
4.) What is the Biblical definition of the Crowns in Scripture?
5.) What do the eyes of a man on the little horn (see #2) signify?
6.) Concerning three horns being rooted out, what does the number three in Scripture signifies?
7.) Why do the eyes of a man upon the horn signify?

If you are going to answer that these beasts of Revelation and Daniel, horns, heads, and crowns have everything to do with some physical nations/empires, and human individuals in relationship to national Israel like what most premillennialists (and preterists) have assumed for the past generations depending on the flavors of the month social agenda or news, then you may have a problem discerning what God actually talked about - just like the subjects I have refuted Douggg on.

Douggg said:

Well, the woman does not have reins on the beast - so she is not controlling the beast.

The beast is carrying the woman, i.e. supporting her. The beast in Revelation 17 is scarlet colored and represents Satan. The inscription on the woman's head also ties back to Satan's influence on the woman. She herself is not Babylon the Great.

Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels.

The little horn person will be king 7 of the 7 kings, the one to come.

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Matt.23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
=
Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
_______
Why are Luke and Paul the only ones who mention earthly-Jerusalem?
except for this ...
The only verse given by one of the 12, makes earthly-Jerusalem = Babylon.

Freedm said:

Doug, I'm assuming you believe this because Paul said that a remnant would be saved in Romans 9:27 "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved". Am I correct in assuming that? Or do you have another reason for believing that the Jews will "change their minds"?

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Also because the 70 wks are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. And because when Jesus returns, Jerusalem will say to him "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord", Matthew 23:37-39.

TribulationSigns said:

Actually, it is you who need to answer the questions first:

1.) What is the Biblical definition of the Beast in Scripture?
2.) What is the Biblical definition of the Horn in Scripture?
3.) What is the Biblical definition of the Head in Scripture?
4.) What is the Biblical definition of the Crowns in Scripture?
5.) What do the eyes of a man on the little horn (see #2) signify?
6.) Concerning three horns being rooted out, what does the number three in Scripture signifies?
7.) Why do the eyes of a man upon the horn signify?

If you are going to answer that these beasts of Revelation and Daniel, horns, heads, and crowns have everything to do with some physical nations/empires, and human individuals in relationship to national Israel like what most premillennialists (and preterists) have assumed for the past generations depending on the flavors of the month social agenda or news, then you may have a problem discerning what God actually talked about - just like the subjects I have refuted Douggg on.

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I could theorize till the cows came home, but I don't keep cattle.
Nor do I think inside the box, not having grown up churchified.
Social Media is a game I don't play, being a private person.
And I can't remember when I last watched the news.

However, I am a literalist, every day of the week.
So... from the Interlinear Greek-English Bible...

1. Beast = therion = wild beast (chaos is come again, the without-law people)
2. Horn = keras = hair of the head (outgrowth of a beast, his source of power)
3. Head = kephale = as the part most readily taken hold of (as a man thinks, so is he)
4. Crown = diadema = to bind (to Satan who owns the kingdoms of the world)
5. little = mikros = small ... spiritual antonym: Matt.18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
6. treis = three ... Jam.5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
7. ophthalmos = eye, sight ... Matt.13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

That was fun. ... Your turn.

I've tweeked it a bit, just to keep it interesting.

Where's the horn that belongs to the 8th Kingdom? Since Horns are worth ripping out.
Why are the first three beasts of Daniel not rooted out? What do they have in common?
What are the three horns rooted-out of the beast? If the little horn "died" by war.
Why don't all the horns have the eyes of a man? Doesn't it have a Michael-type angel?
Why does the dragon show up after the three horns are gone?

Ligurian said:

Matt.23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
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Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
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Why are Luke and Paul the only ones who mention earthly-Jerusalem?
except for this ...
The only verse given by one of the 12, makes earthly-Jerusalem = Babylon.

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All of that were slain upon the earth, goes all the way back to when Cain slew Abel. Jerusalem did not exist back then.

Babylon the great, Satan and his angels mystical kingdom, will be destroyed and never heard of again.

In Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to Jerusalem and stands upon the Mt. of Olives. Jerusalem in that day will be the city of the Lord of hosts, where people will come from around the world to worship him.

Douggg said:

All of that were slain upon the earth, goes all the way back to when Cain slew Abel. Jerusalem did not exist back then.

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Sure about that? We know the history that gets published. Period.
But all three \/ things are the same people, just because Jesus says so.

Matt.23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!"
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Rev. 18:24 "And in [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."
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Matt.23:29 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias..."

I've been waiting for someone to prove me wrong about this for quite a few years now...