Mark Of the Beast

[Alevick]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

There are a lot of assumptions in your question that most Christians wouldn't agree with in the first place.

There is disagreement about how to even read the book of Revelation, there are four broad schools of thought:

Preterist - The Revelation refers primarily to things that happened in the time of St. John when he wrote it, or things that would very shortly happen afterward.

Historicist - The Revelation refers to an unfolding of things throughout history, beginning in John's time, and continuing until the end. At Christ's coming.

Futurist - The Revelation refers primarily to things that will happen at the end, or just shortly before the end.

Idealist - The Revelation refers to larger concepts that can be found from John's day, throughout history, and including the end. It's not about specific events and times and persons, but larger themes


The idea of "the rapture of the church" is part of a subsection of Futurism. Specifically it is part of a belief system known as Dispensational Premillennialism, or Dispensationalism for short. Dispensationalism is a theological system that did not exist prior to the 1820's, as it is the product of the teachings of John Darby and several others. Dispensationalism as a system teaches that in order for the end to happen and for the Antichrist to secure power the Church has to first be removed. And this removal of Christians is called "the rapture" based on the statement in 1 Thessalonians ch. 4 that at Christ's coming the saints will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. Following this, the Antichrist can secure his power, and thus ushers in the seven year period of Tribulation, where the Antichrist rules and God pours out His wrath upon the earth.

This simply isn't what most Christians believe, or have ever believed. It's a narrative of "the end times" that has only been around for less than 200 years, and has only really gained any kind of popularity in the last half century--largely as Dispensationalism gained increasing popularity and support among Evangelical, Fundamentalist, and Pentecostal churches. But among Mainline Protestants it's a very small, to nearly a non-existent minority; and outside of Protestantism it simply doesn't exist at all.

That's the long answer to your question, the shorter answer is that no one agrees about what the Bible says about these things to any degree of specificity; and even on larger questions about these things there are highly diverse views across all denominations and traditions.

Beyond this I can only provide you with my beliefs on these subjects.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sabertooth]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

See Will Christians be taken away to Jesus before the mark of the beast is here

This is how this thread is likely to progress,...

Mousetrap Fission

Ballroom Blitz, Sweet (1973)
Here is a soundtrack to go with it...

 

[ewq1938]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

Both Paul and Christ placed the rapture after the Great Tribulation has ended so the mark would come during the Great Tribulation before the rapture.

 

[MittenMaven]

The Mark already happened in Nero Caesars time. When you went to buy or sell at the market one had to sign a paper and be marked on their person to prove their loyalty to Caesar. That’s what The Bible is referring to. There will be no future “Mark of the beast”. At least not world wide implemented by an antichrist.

 

[disciple Clint]

There are a lot of assumptions in your question that most Christians wouldn't agree with in the first place.

There is disagreement about how to even read the book of Revelation, there are four broad schools of thought:

Preterist - The Revelation refers primarily to things that happened in the time of St. John when he wrote it, or things that would very shortly happen afterward.

Historicist - The Revelation refers to an unfolding of things throughout history, beginning in John's time, and continuing until the end. At Christ's coming.

Futurist - The Revelation refers primarily to things that will happen at the end, or just shortly before the end.

Idealist - The Revelation refers to larger concepts that can be found from John's day, throughout history, and including the end. It's not about specific events and times and persons, but larger themes


The idea of "the rapture of the church" is part of a subsection of Futurism. Specifically it is part of a belief system known as Dispensational Premillennialism, or Dispensationalism for short. Dispensationalism is a theological system that did not exist prior to the 1820's, as it is the product of the teachings of John Darby and several others. Dispensationalism as a system teaches that in order for the end to happen and for the Antichrist to secure power the Church has to first be removed. And this removal of Christians is called "the rapture" based on the statement in 1 Thessalonians ch. 4 that at Christ's coming the saints will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. Following this, the Antichrist can secure his power, and thus ushers in the seven year period of Tribulation, where the Antichrist rules and God pours out His wrath upon the earth.

This simply isn't what most Christians believe, or have ever believed. It's a narrative of "the end times" that has only been around for less than 200 years, and has only really gained any kind of popularity in the last half century--largely as Dispensationalism gained increasing popularity and support among Evangelical, Fundamentalist, and Pentecostal churches. But among Mainline Protestants it's a very small, to nearly a non-existent minority; and outside of Protestantism it simply doesn't exist at all.

That's the long answer to your question, the shorter answer is that no one agrees about what the Bible says about these things to any degree of specificity; and even on larger questions about these things there are highly diverse views across all denominations and traditions.

Beyond this I can only provide you with my beliefs on these subjects.

-CryptoLutheran

Exceptionally well done

 

[honey badger]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

worldly doctrines aside ... who in scripture was first to receive it and why ?

 

[IntriKate]

My personal belief is that we are raptured after the mark of the beast system begins, when he comes to end this evil and takes us home.

 

[ewq1938]

The Mark already happened in Nero Caesars time. When you went to buy or sell at the market one had to sign a paper and be marked on their person to prove their loyalty to Caesar. That’s what The Bible is referring to. There will be no future “Mark of the beast”. At least not world wide implemented by an antichrist.

History has nothing about an image coming to life and speaking that people were ordered to create, nor two prophets being killed then resurrecting 3.5 days later and rising into the heavens which is also the same exact day the 7th trump sounds and Christ returns. If those didn't happen, then the mark of the best didn't happen nor the actual and final AC nor the Great Tribulation Christ spoke about in the Olivet discourse.

 

[MittenMaven]

Everything in the Olivet discourse occurred in 70 AD and before. Jesus said “this generation”. Every single time Jesus used the terms “this generation”. He meant the people standing before him at that time. You rapturists have been predicting something for the last 200 years that will never occur. Most of revelation is allegory and refers to the Roman Empire. Early Christians understood this. You are following a false doctrine. The latest Rapture date is April 10 I hear!

 

[ewq1938]

Everything in the Olivet discourse occurred in 70 AD and before. Jesus said “this generation”. Every single time Jesus used the terms “this generation”. He meant the people standing before him at that time. You rapturists have been predicting something for the last 200 years that will never occur. Most of revelation is allegory and refers to the Roman Empire. Early Christians understood this. You are following a false doctrine. The latest Rapture date is April 10 I hear!

I disagree. Actually nothing in the Olivet discourse occurred in 70 AD. When Jesus said “this generation” he was speaking about the future generation that he was speaking about, not the generation of people listening to him. In the OD Jesus speaks of his second coming which of course hasn't happened yet. Therefore we also know the resurrection and rapture have also not occurred. Has the ten kingdomed beast empire risen with the AC as it's leader? Was the image of the beast made and did it come to life and speak? Did the two prophets lay dead for 3.5 days and then resurrect and rise into the heavens?

We are waiting for all those events to happen. So, nothing in the Olivet discourse occurred in 70 AD. Not the mark nor the rapture, et al.

 

[John Preacher]

The Mark of the Beast seems connected to both Azazel and the number 33 (thirty-three Shin Shin hebrew letter) worn on the heads of many different religions, which for the occult, freemasons etc is a very important number.
THE SHIN BEAST MARK 666

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Mark of the Beast seems connected to both Azazel and the number 33 (thirty-three Shin Shin hebrew letter) worn on the heads of many different religions, which for the occult, freemasons etc is a very important number.
THE SHIN BEAST MARK 666

The number of the Beast isn't six six six. It's six hundred and sixty-six. The Hebrew letter Shin has a numerical value of 300, writing two Shins as numerals is 600. The number 33 in Hebrew numerals would be Lamed and Gimel (30 + 3).

When St. John wrote the Apocalypse, the number he wrote down was ΧΞϚ (Chi Xi Digamma or 600 + 60 + 6). Some very early manuscripts have, alternatively, the number as ΧΙϚ (Chi Iota Digamma or 600 + 10 + 6).

And the number is said to be the number of a man and of that man's name. One simply had to add up the numbers in a word or name to get the value. This is true of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.

Thus the most likely candidate, arguably, is Nero. Specifically Nero Caesar, when converted to Hebrew/Aramaic this could be written as NRW QSR or NRWN QSR (in Aramaic letters of course), which add up to 616 and 666 respectively. This particular argument depends on using Aramaic/Hebrew numerals rather than Greek, though it does account for the textual disparity in the early manuscripts of the Apocalypse as well as account for the historical context of the Apocalypse. As when St. John was on Patmos Roman aggression against the Church had started back up again (for the first time since Nero), and thus it was as though the Beast who had suffered a mortal wound (Nero died) had come back. While there are no records of widespread persecution under Domitian, when John most likely wrote the Apocalypse (mid-90's AD), there was absolutely persecution under Trajan his successor, and continued persecution from the Roman State until the Diocletian persecutions were ended with the Edict of Toleration signed by Constantine and Licinius in 311 AD.

The whole theme of the Apocalypse is the rage of the powers against the Church, but that God in Christ has already secured the victory, and the Day will come when all kingdoms, all powers, all principalities shall be no more, "for the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15) and that God shall keep His faithful promise to all creation, that there shall be the renewal of all things, "Behold, I make all things new!" and all nations shall be found and healed in Christ, as we read that the leaves of the tree of life are for "the healing of the nations".

The Apocalypse, then, is exactly what it proclaims to be, the Apocalypse or Revelation about Jesus Christ. Not the end of the world, but of Christ and the victory of Christ over hell, death, the devil, and all hostile powers both now and in the end when God makes all things new. The Christian, therefore, is invited to look to Christ, who conquered death and hell by His death and resurrection, and our hope of His coming again in glory as judge of the living and the dead, for His kingdom has no end. And His victory is already and certain.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

Before the rapture.

It is part of the tribulation and Matt 24 says the rapture happens after the tribulation.

Matt 24:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The number of the Beast isn't six six six. It's six hundred and sixty-six. The Hebrew letter Shin has a numerical value of 300, writing two Shins as numerals is 600. The number 33 in Hebrew numerals would be Lamed and Gimel (30 + 3).

When St. John wrote the Apocalypse, the number he wrote down was ΧΞϚ (Chi Xi Digamma or 600 + 60 + 6). Some very early manuscripts have, alternatively, the number as ΧΙϚ (Chi Iota Digamma or 600 + 10 + 6).

And the number is said to be the number of a man and of that man's name. One simply had to add up the numbers in a word or name to get the value. This is true of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.

Thus the most likely candidate, arguably, is Nero. Specifically Nero Caesar, when converted to Hebrew/Aramaic this could be written as NRW QSR or NRWN QSR (in Aramaic letters of course), which add up to 616 and 666 respectively. This particular argument depends on using Aramaic/Hebrew numerals rather than Greek, though it does account for the textual disparity in the early manuscripts of the Apocalypse as well as account for the historical context of the Apocalypse. As when St. John was on Patmos Roman aggression against the Church had started back up again (for the first time since Nero), and thus it was as though the Beast who had suffered a mortal wound (Nero died) had come back. While there are no records of widespread persecution under Domitian, when John most likely wrote the Apocalypse (mid-90's AD), there was absolutely persecution under Trajan his successor, and continued persecution from the Roman State until the Diocletian persecutions were ended with the Edict of Toleration signed by Constantine and Licinius in 311 AD.

The whole theme of the Apocalypse is the rage of the powers against the Church, but that God in Christ has already secured the victory, and the Day will come when all kingdoms, all powers, all principalities shall be no more, "for the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15) and that God shall keep His faithful promise to all creation, that there shall be the renewal of all things, "Behold, I make all things new!" and all nations shall be found and healed in Christ, as we read that the leaves of the tree of life are for "the healing of the nations".

The Apocalypse, then, is exactly what it proclaims to be, the Apocalypse or Revelation about Jesus Christ. Not the end of the world, but of Christ and the victory of Christ over hell, death, the devil, and all hostile powers both now and in the end when God makes all things new. The Christian, therefore, is invited to look to Christ, who conquered death and hell by His death and resurrection, and our hope of His coming again in glory as judge of the living and the dead, for His kingdom has no end. And His victory is already and certain.

-CryptoLutheran

Only problem with that theory is that the book of Revelation was written in Greek not Hebrew. One thing you did get right here however is that the number of the beast is the number of a man that represents the beast and his name or title adds up to 666.

• Revelation 13:18 [18], Here is the wisdom. The one having understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for it is a man's number, and its number is six hundred sixty-six.

If we go back to the earliest surviving manuscripts that contain the Revelation, we can easily see that the number is not written in Hebrew letters / numerals. In fact, the ways in which the number is written are two like you stated in your post. In full, as in, “six hundred and sixty six.” In fact, since Greek adjectives have three grammatical genders (masculine, feminine and neuter), there’s a remarkable variety there, with some manuscripts containing the adjective in the masculine (ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ), others in the feminine (ἑξακόσιαι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ), and others in the neuter (ἑξακόσια ἑξήκοντα ἕξ). This is because there was no noun in the text for the adjective to grammatically agree with. Codex Sinaiticus (4th c.), one of the best Greek texts of the New Testament, belongs in this group. With Greek letters that stand for numbers: χξϛ (666) and also χιϛ (616). The latter (616) is a variant known to the ancient Church, with St. Irenaeus of Lyon condemning it as a deceitful forgery. In any case, both variants are written according to the Greek system, not Hebrew.

Revelation has denoted the number 666 using letters of the Ancient Hellenic alphabet. There are two ways to denote the number 666 using only Greek letters and symbols. Ιn one of them the symbol stigma is used, while in the other the letter digamma (F) is used.

These are:

• Χξς΄ = 600+60+6 = 666

• ΧΞF = 600+60+6 = 666

Take Care

 

[1ambassador]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

The question: 'when does the "mark of the beast" come', as was raised by one some time ago, we can learn from "all the counsel of God" and what we see in Rev. 19:20 about this event.
That reference in Revelation about "..the mark" is those souls who rejected Jesus Christ in life and are left behind when the "born again" saints are 'raptured' up to Heaven.
It is the final judgment of lost souls now in Hades (the holding place for those dead without Christ), who are then cast into the "lake of fire" in the final cleansing of the earth; which is the final state for lost souls forever --suffering in torment; for no soul disappears as a created being in existence when they die now. Many Christian Bible students see this place of Hell as the molten fire at the center of our present earth.
The "mark of the beast" --that servant of Satan, will enslave those without Christ for "seven years of torment" when the Lord's "bride": the universal Church, is called home to Heaven suddenly (perhaps very soon now --considering world affairs.??
So, let us be sure of salvation today, as in John 3:16; and all the four Gospel books of the Bible.

-1ambassador

 

[SimpleLiving2019]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ.
I believe we meet him in the air at his coming.
It is clear in scripture that before Jesus’ second coming, the falling away has already happened and the man of sin has been revealed.
It is clear in scripture that when Jesus returns, the beast and kings of the Earth and their armies war against him (so the beast kingdom is well established).

So it is clear that the mark of the beast will be established before the return of Jesus Christ and before we meet him in the air at his coming.

 

[Jonaitis]

According to the bible, does the mark of the beast come before or after the rapture of the church.

The numerical value of Caesar Nero is consistent with the number of the Mark of the Beast. Gematria was very likely used by the author, who would have been familiar with the practice at the time of the writing of Revelation.

 

[ewq1938]

The numerical value of Caesar Nero is consistent with the number of the Mark of the Beast.

No, it isn't.

Nero's real name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus and that doesn't add up to 666 in any language. Second problem is Nero Caesar only adds up to 666 if you take his Greek name and change it into Hebrew letters and use a Hebrew Gematria system instead of the Greek letters of his name and a Greek Gematria system (which is what John wrote Revelation in), AND you add the letter "n" to Nero to make Neron (which isn't his name either) because you need an extra 50 come to 666 ...suddenly none of this makes any real sense and looks contrived. He died in AD68 as well which means he wasn't alive during the AD70 destruction of the temple and thus cannot be the AC/AoD standing in the temple according to Preterist beliefs.

Nero obviously wasn't the 666 antichrist.

 

[Jonaitis]

Second problem is Nero Caesar only adds up to 666 if you take his Greek name and change it into Hebrew letters and use a Hebrew Gematria system instead of the Greek letters of his name and a Greek Gematria system (which is what John wrote Revelation in).

You're fine to disagree, but it makes far more sense than the stuff most people are promulgating today. The book is obviously set in the first century, and it does take a partial preterist view.