Mark of the beast, not a literal mark

[Biblewriter]

No.
Since when are Giving all your posessions to the poor, social equality (Least is greatest) and accepting the worst dregs of society with open arms (and wallets) "conservative" values?
I don't see the Tom Delay's of this world engaging in any such activity.

Jesus is neither conservative nor liberal. Jesus himself is above and beyond such distinctions and gradations and segregation of peoples. The Incarnation was for all humankind, like it or not.



Funny, It's not the liberals in this country who are effectively dismantling the two party system to bring about 1 party rule, but that's not suprising. Democracy is a Liberal value, after all.

This is one Christian who dosen't subscribe to "Fristianity"

Would Jesus support special rights for homosexuals? Or would he continue to say that this is a crime worthy of death?

Would Jesus support excluding all mention of Christianity from the public forum? Or would he continue to tell us to preach the gospel to all creatures?

Would Jesus support removing the ten commandments from all public places? Or would he say they are important?

Would Jesus say the death penalth is wrong? Or would he continue to say that He holds any nation that fails to execute a murder as itself guilty of the murder?

Would Jesus support giving money to anyone who claims to be in need? Or would he conttinue to say, "If any man will not work, neither let him eat?

We could go on with this for a long time, but this forum is about eschatology, not politics.

 

[MbiaJc]

According to a LITERAL interpratation of the scriptural teaching on the mark, yes it is.

That not buying and selling in any interpatation, that is the barter system.

 

[Crayman]

Rev 13:17 even that not any might buy or sell except those having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name. [MKJV]





Hi just some thoughts on the actual practicalities of a 'mark' for buying and selling - my guess it will be a computer implant / microchip which will replace our bank cards and credit cards - if we then move to a cashless society then all buying and selling will be done with the mark - only in 'off-net' communities where the ancient barter system will endure (communities of Christians co-operating to subsist most likely).



I have recently heard of some up market clubs in the US and Europe using a computer chip implant to allow their customers the 'freedom' of not needing to carry cash or cards while at the club, also some mental care facilities now fit their patients with bracelets that allow GPS tracking in case they wonder off to make it easy to recover them - and I suspect that that is how the concept will be marked to the masses - "the convenience of not having to worry about someone stealing your money" the technology is already here to make it possible - you would just need to create the conditions where the populace as a whole would agree to it.



As for what happens to those who agree to the mark - not pretty at all…





Rev 14:9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. [MKJV]





Rev 16:2 And the first went and poured out his vial on the earth. And a bad and grievous sore fell on the men who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image. [MKJV]



Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [MKJV]

 

[Covenant Heart]

The mark of the beast will not be a literal mark,it will be in your forehead =your thoughts and in your right hand=your works...

And the seal of God is only in your forehead because you can't work your way into heaven!

What do you think....

1. Many people conclude (and act on the principle) that the only way to get ahead is to "bend the rules" (cheat). Is it really such a stretch to say that cheating (dishonest business practices) is the hallmark of the business world? Ask a committed Christian who is also a business person. Perhaps assent (with the mind) or serving (with the hand) literally is the mark.

2. While many do know this, the word "mark" is theological language. To be more exact, it is sacramental language. The Christian is marked by the Holy Spirit with whom Jesus baptizes us. As a result, our minds and hands are so dedicated to God that we serve him with all our mind, heart and body (Mt 22).

3. It's interesting that the mark or seal (also theological language) of God is set on the forehead. This sounds suspiciously like the sacrament of baptism by which God marks his claim upon us, upon our minds and works.

4. If it is objected that a physical mark of the beast is required to maintain the obviously intentional parody to the physical mark of baptism, we would point out that many (such as the baptistic faith community) do not receive baptism in this way. Yet the reality of God's promise (the Holy Spirit) is no less theirs even though they do not (in our opinion) understand baptism.

5. In its simplest terms, a mark (or if you will, a sign) is an indicator. In this case, it indicates spiritual identification and spiritual solidarity. To identify with the world is to bear the mark of the beast. To identify with Christ is to take the sign of baptism. That is the most natural reading of the word "mark."

6. This puts things exactly where they belong. The parody between the beastly mark of the world and the baptismal mark of Christ confronts us once again with the claims of Christ and the gospel upon our lives. We come to the Revelation and what do we find? Rather than gratifying our love of metaphysical speculations and wish worship, we find instead the same theology that drives the gospels! What a disappointment!

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[pablosrun]

In the past few years we've seen a remarkable fulfillment of several apoca-lyptic prophecies. It has been exciting, thrilling, and faith-building to witness. But it also is sobering, for fulfilled prophecies indicate that the remaining last-day proph-ecies are soon to follow.

Unfortunately, some Christians do not want to face the coming reality of the prophecy of Revelation chapter 13. "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, ... and all the world wondered after the beast. ... as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Revelation 13:1-3, 15-17.

This is a frightening prophecy indeed. It predicts that a coalition of religious and political powers will align under the leadership of the Antichrist beast to cast the world into a boiling caldron of affliction. There will be a great time of trouble unlike the earth has ever seen before (Daniel 12:1). Some students of Bible prophecy have even suggested this tribulation will be worse than we can imagine.

With the future so bleak, we can easily appreciate why some have chosen to remain ignorant about last-day events. Many of those who have sought to learn about it are so fearful of living during the beast's reign of terror that they have become easy prey for false doctrine. The prevalent false teaching that promises a pre-tribulation rapture appears attractive against the backdrop of Armageddon and the mark of the beast. But ignorance and false doctrine will leave their victims destitute and lost as these fig-leaf garments dry and crumble under the withering blast of the final tribulation.

The desire to live in peace and security is understandable. Few of us, in our introspective moments, feel capable to stand for God and His truth when demons will overrun the earth. But despite these natural fears and aversions, we must not chase after promises of peace and safety that are not founded upon the sure Word of God. While we should focus on the love of God for sinners and the true security that comes from making Him Lord and Saviour of our life, we should also give attention to the warnings of the Spirit concerning the last days.

The Scripture injunction we should heed most is that which warns us against worshipping the beast. Consider these sobering facts. All who worship the beast will forfeit the precious experience of eternal life with Jesus in a glorious new world (Revelation 13:8). They will be inflicted with the extremely painful and fearsome seven last plagues (Revelation 16:2). And finally, they will suffer utter destruction in the fires of hell (Revelation 14:9-11). Without question, we do not want to be found worshipping the beast in the days to come.

But what assures us we will not be in this group? Mind you, it is no small group. Revelation 13:3 says that "all the world wondered after the beast."

Although helpful, mere knowledge of the beast's identity will not guarantee escape. Judas knew Jesus was the Messiah, yet he betrayed Him. Likewise, many of those who understand last-day prophecies will ultimately find themselves on the side of the beast. Knowledge definitely isn't enough. So how can we be on the winning side when all the dust settles? Who will worship the beast? And what can we do now to keep from being part of that group?

The Final Conflict

First, we must understand that the final conflict will be over worship. All inhab-itants of earth will be divided into one of two camps before the end-those who worship the beast and those who worship the Creator. Creature worship versus Creator worship will be the issue to divide the world. Everyone will have to make a choice regarding whom they will worship.

How will the whole earth be brought to make this choice between the creature and the Creator? The Bible predicts a time when the beast will gain immense political influence. From this position of authority, he will force people to worship him. Those who refuse will be economically boycotted and eventually sentenced to death. "And he had power to ... cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all ... to receive a mark ... that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Revelation 13:15-17.

As the beast seeks to enforce worship through force, God mercifully warns people against the beast and urges them to worship Him as Creator. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. ... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God." Revelation 14:6-10.

The scenario is clear. In the last days, the entire world will be squeezed between the two cosmic forces. There will be no neutral ground, no demilitarized zone. Everyone will have to make a decision whom they will serve and worship.

<A name="The Battle Over Worship">The Battle Over Worship

This last conflict over worship is actually the grand finale to a long drama that began in heaven before man was even created. The author of rebellion inaug-urated this "creature versus Creator" war when he coveted the Creator's throne. Lucifer, a created angel, decided his superior beauty and intelligence qualified him to better rule the universe than his Creator. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, ... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:12-14. Working with stealthful deceit, he launched his campaign for the affections of the angels and was successful in attracting one-third of them (Revelation 12:4-9). Demanding the adoration due only the Creator, these created angels tried to bully their way onto God's throne. This forced God to take drastic measures. Revelation 12:7 records, "There was war in heaven." To protect the existence of the universe, God forcibly removed Satan and his angels from heaven.

But this was only the beginning of Satan's campaign for worship that would last thousands of years and cost millions of lives. Cast to earth, Satan next solicited Adam and Eve's worship and service. And it is by understanding our first parents' test over worship that we learn how to keep from worshipping the beast in the last days.

Why did Eve eat the fruit of the forbidden tree? Simply because she lacked trust in God. She trusted the serpent's word more than her Creator's. Adam also distrusted God, but unlike Eve, he was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14). Adam's de-cision to eat the forbidden fruit was a conscious, deliberate choice. He couldn't dream of life without Eve. Worse yet, He didn't trust God to come up with an acceptable solution to deal with Eve's disobedience that would leave him happy throughout eternity.

Our first parents' distrust led them to disobey. And their disobedience became an act of worship of the serpent. You see, worship and obedience are synonymous. "To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." Romans 6:16. When tempted by the devil to bow down and worship him, Jesus revealed that the act of worship is married to service and obedience. "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.

When Adam and Eve trusted the lies of the serpent above the command of God, they entered into creature worship. They truly worshiped the beast. The last conflict in the world merely brings man full circle to retake Adam and Eve's first test. Will we obey and worship the beast or obey and worship the Creator? Both the first and last tests of this world's history contain the same elements: the serpent and his lies, worship, obedience versus disobedience, and the penalty of expulsion from the kingdom of God. Mankind's path back to the tree of life ultimately retraces the steps of our first parents and passes through the corridor of the same test: will we trust God enough to obey Him? Only those who trustingly obey God will enter the pearly gates. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

Adam and Eve's worship of the beast laid the foundation for all false worship. Examine any false religion and you will find it is based upon distrust and dis-obedience of God. Paul makes this point in Romans 1:21-25, NKJV: "Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but ... ex-changed the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator." Whenever we know a Bible truth and refuse to obey it out of thankful hearts, we worship the creature instead of the Creator. We have put our own opinion and feelings above the revealed will of our Creator God.

False worship is the Mark of the Beast

 

[parousia70]

That not buying and selling in any interpatation, that is the barter system.

Again, you couldn't be more worng.
The greek word for "sell", specifically used in the Revelation passage in question, actually, LITERALLY means "to Barter".

 

[Covenant Heart]

In the past few years we've seen a remarkable fulfillment of several apocalyptic prophecies.

That rather begs the question, doesn’t it.

It has been exciting, thrilling, and faith-building to witness.

Exciting and thrilling? Perhaps, but to sustain us in this earthly pilgrimage, we need spiritual substance. It is therefore disingenuous that one’s apocalyptic perspective must buttress faith. If the weight of solid exegesis should overturn that perspective, what becomes of our faith?

But it also is sobering, for fulfilled prophecies indicate that the remaining last-day prophecies are soon to follow.

More sobering is the prospect that we are missing a critical component of the pilgrim perspective because our apocalyptic vision insists on pushing that theology into the future.

Pablosrun, your post contains some good work. You connect the Genesis prologue with the eschaton, weave into the interim the summary of God’s law (to worship and serve him alone) as declared in Christ’s earthly ministry (at his temptation), and very rightly relate this to the primacy of worship. You have a sense of how our response to political and economic power figures into all this. And above all, you sense that the redemptive motif runs throughout the Scriptures. Even though your post is not overtly soteriological, that thought lies just under the surface across your post.

But against the assertion that “some Christians do not want to face the coming reality of the prophecy of Revelation chapter 13,” it is offered that what Christians do not want to face (and studiously ignore) is that our beastly system of earthly power/authority/ideology/propaganda/wealth/oppression is the reality of which Re 13 speaks. In other words, where you say that the day comes when the entire world will be forced to take a stand between the worship of God and the worship of this worldly system, it is offered that said day has come already.

John’s critique of this beastly system of earthly political/military/oppression/wealth/ideology/propaganda to which you refer in Re 13 resurfaces later. In Re 18:1ff, the Gospel is framed in terms of the call to come out of that system. Here’s the rub; we push much of John’s vision into the future so that we can profit from the ill-gotten fruits of that system of earthly power/wealth/oppression. If we acknowledge the present reality of this beastly system, then we must forsake either Christ or this present order of things.

Rather than choose between the riches of Christ and his worship, or the worship of beastly power and wealth, WE PUSH JOHN’S VISION INTO THE FUTURE TO EVADE THE CHOICE BETWEEN CHRIST AND THIS WORLD. One other point in this connection; BY EVADING THIS CHOICE, WE ADOPT THE BEAST’S WORSHIP BY DEFAULT.

The religious community that does not force this choice upon the world IS the false church of the apostasy.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

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[Barraco]

Without the mark you will not be able to buy or sell. How does that fit in with a symbolic mark?

if yer running from the beast, how will you sell or buy?

 

[parousia70]

Would Jesus support special rights for homosexuals? Or would he continue to say that this is a crime worthy of death?

1)Give me an example of a special right for a homosexual.
2) Show me the scripture where Jesus says Homosexuals should be put to death.

Would Jesus support excluding all mention of Christianity from the public forum? Or would he continue to tell us to preach the gospel to all creatures?

Please show me where and when ALL MENTION of Christianity has been excluded from the "public Square" in the USA.

Would Jesus support removing the ten commandments from all public places? Or would he say they are important?

He gave us only 2 commandments.
Love God and Love eachother.

Would Jesus say the death penalth is wrong? Or would he continue to say that He holds any nation that fails to execute a murder as itself guilty of the murder?

Scripture please.
Show me where Jesus is on record as supporting the death penalty for any crime.

Would Jesus support giving money to anyone who claims to be in need? Or would he conttinue to say, "If any man will not work, neither let him eat?

Scripture please.
Would Jesus say "the greatest of you will have the highest honor at my table" or will he continue to say "What you do to the least of my people, you do to me"?

 

[snoochface]

1)Give me an example of a special right for a homosexual.
2) Show me the scripture where Jesus says Homosexuals should be put to death.



Please show me where and when ALL MENTION of Christianity has been excluded from the "public Square" in the USA.



He gave us only 2 commandments.
Love God and Love eachother.



Scripture please.
Show me where Jesus is on record as supporting the death penalty for any crime.



Scripture please.
Would Jesus say "the greatest of you will have the highest honor at my table" or will he continue to say "What you do to the least of my people, you do to me"?

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will ) but it sounds very much like you only accept the words of Jesus in the Bible as truth/commands/God's word. Do you not believe that the books of the New Testament that do not include Jesus' specific words are also truth and God's word for us to live by?

Maybe you're just playing a semantics game in response to "what would Jesus say about XYZ" by asking for examples of Jesus specifically saying XYZ. But Jesus is the Word and Jesus is God and the Bible in its entirety is God's (Jesus') word - so all of your questions can be answered with scripture in other parts of the Bible besides the gospel. That is, unless you disbelieve that they are also God's word.

 

[parousia70]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will ) but it sounds very much like you only accept the words of Jesus in the Bible as truth/commands/God's word. Do you not believe that the books of the New Testament that do not include Jesus' specific words are also truth and God's word for us to live by?

Absolutely I believe Each word of the NT, and the OT for that matter is God's Word, and Jesus is that word made flesh.

Maybe you're just playing a semantics game in response to "what would Jesus say about XYZ" by asking for examples of Jesus specifically saying XYZ.

Not exactly.
The distinguished Republican poster whom I was responding to wasn't so much asking "What would Jesus say anout XYZ, rather he asked "Would Jesus CONTINUE to say "ABC" about "XYZ".

This clearly implies Jesus said those things at least once, and I merely asked Him to Show me where.

As for your argument that ALL scripture is the equivalant of Jesus speaking in the flesh, I ask you:
Is the OT the words of Jesus?
I say Sure, since Jesus is God's word made Flesh, But in the OT for example, God's word (Jesus) has very strict guidelines on what is clean and unclean to eat.

Then In the NT, God's Word (Jesus), in the flesh, preaches the opposite, that nothing you can eat is unclean.


Which of these opposite commands would you say trumps the other?

If my republican friend can cite any NT scripture commanding the killing of homosexuals, I'm sure he will.

If He wants to get semantical, and deny he claimed Jesus commanded Homosexuals be put to death, by saying they are only WORTHY of Death, fine, but that extends to every human being who ever lived.

He and I and you are not worthy or dererving of life either.

 

[snoochface]

Not exactly.
The distinguished Republican poster whom I was responding to wasn't so much asking "What would Jesus say anout XYZ, rather he asked "Would Jesus CONTINUE to say "ABC" about "XYZ".

This clearly implies Jesus said those things at least once, and I merely asked Him to Show me where.

Fair enough. I see the distinction you are making.

As for your argument that ALL scripture is the equivalant of Jesus speaking in the flesh, I ask you:
Is the OT the words of Jesus?
I say Sure, since Jesus is God's word made Flesh, But in the OT for example, God's word (Jesus) has very strict guidelines on what is clean and unclean to eat.

Then In the NT, God's Word (Jesus), in the flesh, preaches the opposite, that nothing you can eat is unclean.


Which of these opposite commands would you say trumps the other?

Yes, the OT is the words of Jesus, as well as the NT. But it is a different message for different people. The OT included laws that were put in place for a number of reasons, including so that people who lived in those times (pre-Jesus) would understand what sin is, be aware of it, and know what God required of them. Those laws brought sin home to the people who lived under the law.

[bible]Romans 7:12-13[/bible]

I don't really like how KJV translates that. This is the NIV translation, which says the same thing but seems to be clearer about the purpose of the law.

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Once Jesus came and died for our sins, we were no longer under the law, but under grace. Without faith in Jesus as our savior, we can't please God even if we somehow had the ability to live our lives to the very letter of the law. So living under the law without faith is pointless.

[bible]Romans 8:7-8[/bible]

[bible]Hebrews 11:5-6[/bible]

So I would say that one does not trump the other. Rather, they are both the word of God, and of Jesus, one for a pre-Jesus audience that needed to become aware of sin and God's requirements for them, and one for a post-Jesus audience that needed to become aware of grace and the forgiveness that comes with faith in him as our savior. We no longer need to worry about what we eat and whether it falls under the law, because we now fall under grace through faith.

On the liberal vs. conservative issues... I'm staying away from that type of political discussion. You are right that we all deserve death, every one of us, and I do not believe that there is any sin that is worse than any other sin. Homosexuality is no worse a sin than calling in sick to work when you just need a mental health day off. I do, however, believe what the Bible says about homosexuality being a sin, and while I hesitate to speak for the conservative poster, I have to assume that is the point he was getting at.