Mark Driscoll

[McScribe]

Hang on a minute--so he's committed sins and said and done some bad things. No matter what the situation is, if someone says biblical truth as biblical truth is it not biblical truth? We're not talking distortion of the Gospel here--as Satan did with Jesus during the temptation--we're talking scripture being scripture and truth being truth. How perfect does someone have to be before they can preach or teach and be received in any way?

 

[sdmsanjose]

Reply by McScribe
Hang on a minute--so he's committed sins and said and done some bad things. No matter what the situation is, if someone says biblical truth as biblical truth is it not biblical truth? We're not talking distortion of the Gospel here--as Satan did with Jesus during the temptation--we're talking scripture being scripture and truth being truth. How perfect does someone have to be before they can preach or teach and be received in any way?

Thank you McScribe!
Very well stated!

 

[Jilly123]

Hang on a minute--so he's committed sins and said and done some bad things. No matter what the situation is, if someone says biblical truth as biblical truth is it not biblical truth? We're not talking distortion of the Gospel here--as Satan did with Jesus during the temptation--we're talking scripture being scripture and truth being truth. How perfect does someone have to be before they can preach or teach and be received in any way?

I agree BUT I must add that what a person thinks of how theologically sound his teachings are depends on their theology. I have thought some of his teachings were really excellent, but I'm not a Calvinist, so there is a lot that he has preached that I just don't agree with.

I don't expect Mark to be perfect before he can preach. I do believe God has used him and will continue to use him to minister to people, but that doesn't mean I have to like his delivery and agree with everything he says.

There is a lot that really puts me off. Sometimes it's a great message but poor delivery. He uses schoolyard bully tactics to get his message across. I could never sit under teaching like that every single Sunday.

One of the first messages I ever listened to of his (it's somewhere on Youtube) is where he mocks Joel Osteen (and he also mentions another preacher, can't remember who) for preaching a "feel-good" prosperity gospel and leaving God out of it. Now I may not agree with Joel Osteen but for Mark to publicly call him out and criticize him like that is not very Christ-like. It's one thing to disagree with another pastor's teaching, it's a completely different thing to judge him publicly.

And to comment on the book...I couldn't finish it. When they were discussing their marriage issues his whole tone seems to imply that even though he wasn't treating Grace right it was her fault for being frigid and cheating etc. I really didn't like the way he shamed her for having cheated on him in High School, when they were both aware before they got married that they weren't virgins. And then at the end of chapter 1 he says "Then, after more than a decade of marriage, a root issue was finally revealed. Grace’s problem was that she was an assault victim who had never told me or anyone else of the physical, spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse she had suffered". So it turned out it was all her fault they were having marriage issues...
He lists sexual abuse third in his list of sexual sins to confess. Sexual abuse is NOT a sin to be confessed, it is something to be disclosed. The fact that he thinks it was sin on his wife's part is ick.

And the part where she comes home with a "mommish" kind of hair cut and he reduces her to tears because he tells her she is putting "a mom's need for convenience before being a wife."

And that's all I have to say about Mark Driscoll

 

[Incariol]

And to comment on the book...I couldn't finish it. When they were discussing their marriage issues his whole tone seems to imply that even though he wasn't treating Grace right it was her fault for being frigid and cheating etc. I really didn't like the way he shamed her for having cheated on him in High School, when they were both aware before they got married that they weren't virgins. And then at the end of chapter 1 he says "Then, after more than a decade of marriage, a root issue was finally revealed. Grace’s problem was that she was an assault victim who had never told me or anyone else of the physical, spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse she had suffered". So it turned out it was all her fault they were having marriage issues...
And the part where she comes home with a "mommish" kind of hair cut and he reduces her to tears because he tells her she is putting "a mom's need for convenience before being a wife."

And that's all I have to say about Mark Driscoll

Yeah, last time I ever went was a sermon in which he and Grace said if a man cheats on his wife, it is her and I quote (I kid you not), "sin" for not providing for his needs. I honestly expected him to give his usual diatribe about "Christian boys" needing to "man up" and blah blah blah, but no. If you're a husband and not getting enough sex at home and you have an affair with some girl at work, not only is your wife in the wrong, but she's sinning!

Anyways.

 

[chaz345]

One of the first messages I ever listened to of his (it's somewhere on Youtube) is where he mocks Joel Osteen (and he also mentions another preacher, can't remember who) for preaching a "feel-good" prosperity gospel and leaving God out of it. Now I may not agree with Joel Osteen but for Mark to publicly call him out and criticize him like that is not very Christ-like. It's one thing to disagree with another pastor's teaching, it's a completely different thing to judge him publicly.

But this, and actually worse, calling him non-Christian, is what many have done to Driscoll in this thread. Not you, your post actually does quite well and sticking to what you object to in his teaching without attacking his character or questioning his christianity. But most here in this thread are not simply disagreeing with a teaching or with many teachings of his but are outright attacking him plain and simple. It's as if Christ, upon encountering the woman at the well had, instead of what He did do said "away from me you dirty rotten filthy sinner." It's wrong and it saddens me that people who call themself Christian are doing it.

 

[hijklmnop]

And to comment on the book...I couldn't finish it. When they were discussing their marriage issues his whole tone seems to imply that even though he wasn't treating Grace right it was her fault for being frigid and cheating etc. I really didn't like the way he shamed her for having cheated on him in High School, when they were both aware before they got married that they weren't virgins. And then at the end of chapter 1 he says "Then, after more than a decade of marriage, a root issue was finally revealed. Grace’s problem was that she was an assault victim who had never told me or anyone else of the physical, spiritual, emotional, and sexual abuse she had suffered". So it turned out it was all her fault they were having marriage issues...
He lists sexual abuse third in his list of sexual sins to confess. Sexual abuse is NOT a sin to be confessed, it is something to be disclosed. The fact that he thinks it was sin on his wife's part is ick.

And the part where she comes home with a "mommish" kind of hair cut and he reduces her to tears because he tells her she is putting "a mom's need for convenience before being a wife."

And that's all I have to say about Mark Driscoll

Disturbing stuff.

 

[chaz345]

He lists sexual abuse third in his list of sexual sins to confess. Sexual abuse is NOT a sin to be confessed, it is something to be disclosed. The fact that he thinks it was sin on his wife's part is ick.

Does he actually say that the abuse itself is the sin or was he saying that not disclosing it was a sin? Can you provide an actual quote from the book?

 

[chaz345]

Yeah, last time I ever went was a sermon in which he and Grace said if a man cheats on his wife, it is her and I quote (I kid you not), "sin" for not providing for his needs. I honestly expected him to give his usual diatribe about "Christian boys" needing to "man up" and blah blah blah, but no. If you're a husband and not getting enough sex at home and you have an affair with some girl at work, not only is your wife in the wrong, but she's sinning!

Anyways.

Do you see any difference between that and what they teach at God Save My Marriage - Joel and Kathy Davisson - Christian Marriage Help where a woman's affair or for that matter pretty much any wrong she does is the fault of the husband for not loving her as Christ loves the church?

 

[Chaplain David]

But this, and actually worse, calling him non-Christian, is what many have done to Driscoll in this thread. Not you, your post actually does quite well and sticking to what you object to in his teaching without attacking his character or questioning his christianity. But most here in this thread are not simply disagreeing with a teaching or with many teachings of his but are outright attacking him plain and simple. It's as if Christ, upon encountering the woman at the well had, instead of what He did do said "away from me you dirty rotten filthy sinner." It's wrong and it saddens me that people who call themself Christian are doing it.

Yeah, this stuff about calling people (folks that have accepted Christ as their Lord & Savior) nonChristians or not having the "right" Spirit because you (not you but others) disagree with them doctrinally are IMO forms of spiritual prejudice and self righteousness.

Good to see ya Chaz. God bless.

 

[Luther073082]

But this, and actually worse, calling him non-Christian, is what many have done to Driscoll in this thread. Not you, your post actually does quite well and sticking to what you object to in his teaching without attacking his character or questioning his christianity. But most here in this thread are not simply disagreeing with a teaching or with many teachings of his but are outright attacking him plain and simple. It's as if Christ, upon encountering the woman at the well had, instead of what He did do said "away from me you dirty rotten filthy sinner." It's wrong and it saddens me that people who call themself Christian are doing it.

His lifestyle is counter to the Christian faith, his teachings are counter to the Christian faith. We have proven both.

So therefore you are saying "It barks like a dog, it looks like a dog. . . with this I agree. . . but I think it's really a camel."

Yeah, this stuff about calling people (folks that have accepted Christ as their Lord & Savior) nonChristians or not having the "right" Spirit because you (not you but others) disagree with them doctrinally are IMO forms of spiritual prejudice and self righteousness.

Again if it looks like a dog and barks like a dog. . . its not a camel. His lifestyle is counter to the Christian faith. His preaching. . . also counter to the Christian faith. Therefore what I see is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[McScribe]

Let's have a moment of perspective. Christianity is tainted. Humanity is tainted. We're not going to ever find some perfect source except through Christ. Men aren't innocent and women aren't innocent.

Peter denied Christ. Yet here we are.

Paul persecuted and murdered Christians. Yet here we are.

Rahab was a prostitute. Yet here we are.

You all know what I'm getting at. Heck, the line of descent of Jesus' earthly family is made up of sinners. Yet we have Jesus Christ anyway. It's wrong to find things that you don't like about Mark Driscoll and ignore things that he has said that are biblical. No one is saying "Go to his church, he's a great man." All that is being brought up is the sermon itself, and it's like people can't bring themselves to see that a man who is flawed might have even one genuinely good sermon. How sinless is everyone else here? Have none of you ever spent a long time in unforgiveness, have none of you lied, stolen, cheated, been neglectful, lacking in generosity, lacking in mercy, walked in unbelief?

We're not talking about the guy himself, but about the sermon. Is what he is saying true or not?

If someone makes an amazing medical discovery and is also stealing from the company he works for--does that make the discovery a false one? No. Any one of us who does something good is also probably sinning in other ways.

 

[Sailor_A]

Hang on a minute--so he's committed sins and said and done some bad things. No matter what the situation is, if someone says biblical truth as biblical truth is it not biblical truth? We're not talking distortion of the Gospel here--as Satan did with Jesus during the temptation--we're talking scripture being scripture and truth being truth. How perfect does someone have to be before they can preach or teach and be received in any way?

Technically to be a pastor there are requirements:

1 Timothy 3:1-7

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

I mean even the devil can quote scripture . My brother in law can give you biblical truth but being an atheist I'm not sure he is up teaching and preaching.

 

[Luther073082]

As early as the second century, Christianity was criticised as the religion of women, slaves and little children. It seems it's always attracted those with subordinate status in society.

The likes of Driscol and this Podles guy would have us believe that the problem is with the church. The church needs to change so that men will come. My question is, why does the church need to change? Maybe the problem is this uber masculinist society which sneers and scorns men for not living up to the macho macho man stereotype, and that treats women and 'weak' men with utter contempt. Maybe it's society that needs to be changed. Now that is a radical thought.

The church needs to change, but it needs to change back to the way it was before. And Driscoll totally does not understand in what way it needs to change. He completly misses the mark on it.

 

[McScribe]

Technically to be a pastor there are requirements:

1 Timothy 3:1-7


I mean even the devil can quote scripture . My brother in law can give you biblical truth but being an atheist I'm not sure he is up teaching and preaching.

I am...not talking about his qualification to be a pastor.

 

[chaz345]

His lifestyle is counter to the Christian faith, his teachings are counter to the Christian faith. We have proven both.

Actually I've seen little to nothing that proves any such thing. I've seen a lot of discussion about what people say he's said that's supposedly unBiblical, but I've seen almost nothing in his own words that does that. Besides, in your case, since he's not Lutheran, isn't pretty much anything he does teach immediately highly suspect anyway, regardless of whether is comes straight from the Bible or not?

Don't misundertand, I'm not exactly a huge fan of his overall teaching. My issue is with how people have taken what someone says about one thing he teaches, not even his own words and made the judgement that the guy isn't even a Christian. It's like it's not enough for them to state their disagreement with his teaching and show why they believe it to be unBiblical, they have to attack his character too to make sure that no one dares to agree with him on anything.

 

[Tamara224]

In my experience, the only times Driscoll gets anything right theologically, he's merely parroting someone else's work. When he's reciting John Piper's exegesis he has a good chance of regurgitating some meat for his audience. But whenever he's doing his own 'work' he fails utterly.

Also, to those who say there's no evidence of Driscoll's false teachings.... give me a break.

How about the times Driscoll has said that he "couldn't worship a god he could beat up?" How about the time Driscoll was having a disagreement with elders in his church and his response to them was to threaten to punch them in the face? How about the time he posted a message on Facebook inviting people to mock and ridicule "effeminate male worship leaders?" How about the time he blamed Ted Haggard's wife for Ted's alleged affair with a male prostitute? The list of Driscoll's unloving and unChristlike behavior goes on and on and on.

Jesus told us to beware of men such as Mark Driscoll.

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. (Matthew 7)
​

 

[Sailor_A]

I am...not talking about his qualification to be a pastor.

Forgive me but I thought you were talking about his ability to preach and I correlated that with his position of pastor. If you continually miss the requirements to be a pastor then it is not wrong for someone to point that out. After all anyone can give gospel truth that doesn't mean anyone can preach. Hope that makes sense.

 

[McScribe]

Forgive me but I thought you were talking about his ability to preach and I correlated that with his position of pastor. If you continually miss the requirements to be a pastor then it is not wrong for someone to point that out. After all anyone can give gospel truth that doesn't mean anyone can preach. Hope that makes sense.

Okay, I get what you're saying. I find his overall approach dubious for a number of reasons, so I wouldn't want to attend his church, personally. However I think that sometimes he can be right in a particular sermon, that was my main point.

 

[chaz345]

Also, to those who say there's no evidence of Driscoll's false teachings.... give me a break.

I never said no such evidence existed, I said that all we had in this thread was a bunch of stuff that people had said he's said, like the examples in your post, and little to nothing in his own words.

Again, for clarity, I'm not exactly a huge fan either, but I'm even less a fan of the sort of character assasination that's gone on here in this thread. Specific evidence of his false teachings in his own words has been requested several times, it's continued absence is quite telling. I strongly suspect that most of his "false teachings" are misrepresentations or misunderstandings of what he's actually said that get parroted around rather than people actually taking the time to look at what's really said/meant in his own words. That happens a lot to people who sometimes use a bit of hyperbole to make their point, especically when the point there are making is offensive or scary to some people.

 

[Luther073082]

I never said no such evidence existed, I said that all we had in this thread was a bunch of stuff that people had said he's said, like the examples in your post, and little to nothing in his own words.

Again, for clarity, I'm not exactly a huge fan either, but I'm even less a fan of the sort of character assasination that's gone on here in this thread. Specific evidence of his false teachings in his own words has been requested several times, it's continued absence is quite telling. I strongly suspect that most of his "false teachings" are misrepresentations or misunderstandings of what he's actually said that get parroted around rather than people actually taking the time to look at what's really said/meant in his own words. That happens a lot to people who sometimes use a bit of hyperbole to make their point, especically when the point there are making is offensive or scary to some people.

Do you want me to go look up the pictures of his facebook post about the effeminate preachers?

Do you want me to find you the New York Time's article in which he specifically excommunciated those people who disagreed with him on the direction he was taking the church?

Shall I find the quote by Driscoll about wives who don't have enough sex with their husband specifically comming out right after the Ted Haggard thing broke?

If you acknoweldge these quotes are real. . . then what more do you ask?

And in terms of his behavior that is counter to the Christian faith. . . Excommunicating people who don't agree with the direction he's taking the church (not on the basis of doctrine) is one big one.

The other one of course would be apparently in his book he said that he made his wife appologize for being sexually assaulted or something like that. Thats also been pointed out.

Besides, in your case, since he's not Lutheran, isn't pretty much anything he does teach immediately highly suspect anyway, regardless of whether is comes straight from the Bible or not?

In my view the Book of Concord is the definitive and complete explaination of the scriptures. Anything he states which is not in agreement with the Book of Concord is a misunderstanding of the scriptures.

However his reformed views are not the reason I dislike him. Thats the reason I wouldn't ever go to his church. But the reason I dislike him is because of his hyper masculine teachings and views, his mistreatment of people in his own church, his poor attempts at using the scriptures to demand oral sex out of women regardless of their own personal desires in that matter, his ridiculous criticism of any hobby that he doesn't participate in, his over-reliance on "man up" sermons, and his continued and quite false attempts at repainting Jesus from a savior who stoicly took the cross without striking back into some ultimate fighter who's out to show men how to be "real men". Which apparently either involves ultimate fighting or at the very least watching it.