Mark 6:5?

[JTM3]

After some of my threads here, I have decided it would probably be wise for me just to stay out of here...but if I am a "heretic," hopefully you guys can find it within yourselves to forgive me, and pray for me to become part of the elect, or however it works...

Anyway, I just have one last question abotu Mark 6:5 (please remember that in my last thread I did state that I was not trying to start a debate, I was just asking why extra-charismatic/WOF groups seem more hostile, and not loving like Christ taught us to be.):

Mark 6:5 makes an astonishing claim and proof (too me at least) that there is at least some truth in the WOF movement.

[SIZE=-0]"He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. [/SIZE]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Jesus Sends Out the Twelve[/FONT]
6[SIZE=-0] And he was amazed at their lack of faith," NIV[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-0]According to Calvinist doctrine, God has no limits and can do whatever wants whenver he wants wherever he wants etc.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-0]Some major tenets of the WOF movement are listed in that verse:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=-0]
• God can do nothing without our approval; not because he is not soverign, but because he has chosen to give and respect our free will, and has given us this planet not merely as stewards but that we own it, therefore we must ask him to intervene.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-0]
• Fear is the opposite of faith; and opens you up to ic "intervention" (attack).[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-0]
• This verse is proof tha miracles are for today because God works by faith, which is why he is impressed by our faith (Jesus and the Roman soldier)[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-0]
• It isOur faith that moves the hand of God; time and time again, Jesus said in the New Testament: "O ye of little faith.," "Why do you lack faith?" "Your faith has made you whole."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-0]It seems to me like religious people (WOF also distinguishes between plain religion and true Christianity; whatever that may be..) have had a bad, bad history of ignoring scripture...
[/SIZE][SIZE=-0]
I just wanted to know what you guys think of this verse; I noticed my other thread got a little...heated...I'm sorry that that happened; I really didn't want that.[/SIZE]

And I'm sorry in advance if this turns out to be another debate, but this IS an honest question, I just want to know what you guys think of this.

[SIZE=-0]Thanks! JTM3
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-0]
[/SIZE]

 

[Elderone]

Here is what Matthew Henry, and others, says concerning Mark 6:5.

Yet he could there do no such mighty works, at least not so many, as in other places, because of the unbelief that prevailed among the people, by reason of the prejudices which their leaders instilled into them against Christ, Mar_6:5. It is a strange expression, as if unbelief tied the hands of omnipotence itself; he would have done as many miracles there as he had done elsewhere, but he could not, because people would not make application to him, nor sue for his favours; he could have wrought them, but they forfeited the honour of having them wrought for them. Note, By unbelief and contempt of Christ men stop the current of his favours to them, and put a bar in their own door.

Here are just a few passages concerning the power of God.

Mt 6:13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.‘

Mt 22:29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.

Mt 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mt 26:64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Mr 5:30 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My garments?"


God is the potter and we the clay, He has the power to do whatever and whenever He wishes.

Isa 29:16 You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made should say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Isa 41:25 "I have aroused one from the north, and he has come; From the rising of the sun he will call on My name; And he will come upon rulers as upon mortar, Even as the potter treads clay."

Isa 45:9 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

Jer 18:4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

Jer 18:6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter‘s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.


Do a Bible search on the word powerful.


The Creator is all-powerful, omnipotent.

om·nip·o·tent (¼m-n¹p“…-t…nt) adj. 1. Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

 

[JTM3]

Here is what Matthew Henry, and others, says concerning Mark 6:5.



Here are just a few passages concerning the power of God.

Mt 6:13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.‘

Mt 22:29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.

Mt 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mt 26:64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Mr 5:30 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My garments?"


God is the potter and we the clay, He has the power to do whatever and whenever He wishes.

Isa 29:16 You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made should say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Isa 41:25 "I have aroused one from the north, and he has come; From the rising of the sun he will call on My name; And he will come upon rulers as upon mortar, Even as the potter treads clay."

Isa 45:9 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

Jer 18:4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

Jer 18:6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter‘s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.


Do a Bible search on the word powerful.


The Creator is all-powerful, omnipotent.

Oh brother. Chill out. Once again the mere theists must weasel word their way through the obvious; totally ignoring what I said, brain washed by their own theology. By "Ask a Calvanist" thread.

 

[Elderone]

The answers we give are what we believe in relation to the question posed, which is what the "Ask a Calvinist" thread is about. Your under no obligation to believe them.

 

[JTM3]

The answers we give are what we believe in relation to the question posed, which is what the "Ask a Calvinist" thread is about. Your under no obligation to believe them.

Why thank you! Sorry for being, well, jerkish. . I guess you were being very matter of fact sounding . It just seems kinda hostile at my school sometimes.

Btw, what do you say for Romans 4:17?

 

[Elderone]

Btw, what do you say for Romans 4:17?

Ro 4:17 ¶ (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Here is how Barnes reveals this passage:

Rom 4:17 -
As it is written - Gen_17:5.

I have made thee - The word used here in the Hebrew Gen_17:5 means literally, to give, to grant; and also, to set, or constitute. This is also the meaning of the Greek word used both by the Septuagint and the apostle. The quotation is taken literally from the Septuagint. The argument of the apostle is founded in part on the fact that the past tense is used - I have made thee - and that God spoke of a thing as already done, which he had promised or purposed to do. The sense is, he had, in his mind or purpose, constituted him the father of many nations; and so certain was the fulfillment of the divine purposes, that he spoke of it as already accomplished.

Of many nations - The apostle evidently understands this promise as referring, not to his natural descendants only, but to the great multitude who should believe as he did.

Before him - In his view, or sight; that is, God regarded him as such a father.

Whom he believed - Whose promise he believed; or in whom he trusted.

Who quickeneth the dead - Who gives life to the dead, Eph_2:1, Eph_2:5. This expresses the power of God to give life. But why it is used here has been a subject of debate. I regard it as having reference to the strong natural improbability of the fulfillment of the prophecy when it was given, arising from the age of Abraham and Sarah, Rom_4:19. Abraham exercised power in the God who gives life, and who gives it as he pleases. It is one of his prerogatives to give life to the dead (íåêñïõò nekrous), to raise up those who are in their graves; and a power similar to that, or strongly reminding of that, was manifested in fulfilling the promise to Abraham. The giving of this promise, and its fulfillment, were such as strongly to remind us that God has power to give life to the dead.

And calleth ... - That is, those things which he foretels and promises are so certain, that he may speak of them as already in existence. Thus, in relation to Abraham, God, instead of simply promising that he would make him the father of many nations, speaks of it as already done, "I have made thee," etc. In his own mind, or purpose, he had so constituted him, and it was so certain that it would take place, that he might speak of it as already done.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to have come across as matter of fact, but I consider the Bible to be God's word and thus the fact. In my opinion the secret, so-to-speak, to understanding what is being said is to consult with men such as Calvin, Henry, Barnes etc. Their commentaries have been time tested and most believe them to be reliable, although not infallible. I certainly am no match for the biblical understanding.

Hope this helps.

 

[heymikey80]

Mark 6:5 makes an astonishing claim and proof (too me at least) that there is at least some truth in the WOF movement.

[SIZE=+0]"He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. [/SIZE]
6[SIZE=+0] And he was amazed at their lack of faith," NIV[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]According to Calvinist doctrine, God has no limits and can do whatever wants whenver he wants wherever he wants etc.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]Some major tenets of the WOF movement are listed in that verse:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=+0]God can do nothing without our approval; not because he is not soverign, but because he has chosen to give and respect our free will, and has given us this planet not merely as stewards but that we own it, therefore we must ask him to intervene.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+0] Fear is the opposite of faith; and opens you up to ic "intervention" (attack).[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+0] This verse is proof that miracles are for today because God works by faith, which is why he is impressed by our faith (Jesus and the Roman soldier)[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
• [SIZE=+0]It isOur faith that moves the hand of God; time and time again, Jesus said in the New Testament: "O ye of little faith.," "Why do you lack faith?" "Your faith has made you whole."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]It seems to me like religious people (WOF also distinguishes between plain religion and true Christianity; whatever that may be..) have had a bad, bad history of ignoring scripture...
[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]
I just wanted to know what you guys think of this verse; I noticed my other thread got a little...heated...I'm sorry that that happened; I really didn't want that.[/SIZE]

And I'm sorry in advance if this turns out to be another debate, but this IS an honest question, I just want to know what you guys think of this.

[SIZE=+0]Thanks! JTM3[/SIZE]

Well, let's take a nice close look at the verse.

Verse 6 points back at the people being healed -- the people being healed didn't have faith, contradicting the tenet of WOF that God works by an individual's faith. These guys had an amazing lack of faith -- or so marvels Jesus.

On the "couldn't do works of power". The Greek for "couldn't" is simply "not empowered". Mark wrote a patently Hebraic reiteration: "He was being empowered there no power to do". You see reiteration throughout Hebrew; it merely emphasizes the fact it doubles.

The word "edunato" can also mean "self-empowerment", too, leaving the "capability" question up to Jesus Himself. It doesn't really conclude much of anything about what's empowering what.

Taking this in WOF terms then, the marvelous lack of faith healed people. Not much else can be concluded, because the grammar doesn't force the WOF interpretation. Is it one possible result? Sure -- if WOF works with a marvelous lack of faith. But Calvinistic grace is certainly another possible result, in which Jesus works grace but is disgusted by how little faith results from His healings.

 

[JTM3]

Well, let's take a nice close look at the verse.

Verse 6 points back at the people being healed -- the people being healed didn't have faith, contradicting the tenet of WOF that God works by an individual's faith. These guys had an amazing lack of faith -- or so marvels Jesus.

On the "couldn't do works of power". The Greek for "couldn't" is simply "not empowered". Mark wrote a patently Hebraic reiteration: "He was being empowered there no power to do". You see reiteration throughout Hebrew; it merely emphasizes the fact it doubles.

The word "edunato" can also mean "self-empowerment", too, leaving the "capability" question up to Jesus Himself. It doesn't really conclude much of anything about what's empowering what.

Taking this in WOF terms then, the marvelous lack of faith healed people. Not much else can be concluded, because the grammar doesn't force the WOF interpretation. Is it one possible result? Sure -- if WOF works with a marvelous lack of faith. But Calvinistic grace is certainly another possible result, in which Jesus works grace but is disgusted by how little faith results from His healings.

Very intereting...thank you.

Perhaps only those few actually had any faith? Thus "allowing" God/Jesus to work on them? Only those few had faith, thus, only those few got healed....but intersting word study

 

[JTM3]

Sorry to have come across as matter of fact, but I consider the Bible to be God's word and thus the fact. In my opinion the secret, so-to-speak, to understanding what is being said is to consult with men such as Calvin, Henry, Barnes etc. Their commentaries have been time tested and most believe them to be reliable, although not infallible. I certainly am no match for the biblical understanding.

No prob

 

[heymikey80]

Very intereting...thank you.

Perhaps only those few actually had any faith? Thus "allowing" God/Jesus to work on them? Only those few had faith, thus, only those few got healed....but intersting word study

Well, to read that way I'd expect the sentences to be reversed: that Jesus marveled at their lack of faith, so he could only heal a few (ie those who had faith). Instead the sentences reverse on us, saying he only healed a few, and he marveled at their unbelief.

Might it be something else? Well yes, if Mark were in a fit of bad grammar, it could be. It does happen, though not terribly often. I'm just looking at it grammatically. I'm not sure how much good theology you can get from bad grammar though, so I wouldn't make a habit of it.

 

[JTM3]

Well, to read that way I'd expect the sentences to be reversed: that Jesus marveled at their lack of faith, so he could only heal a few (ie those who had faith). Instead the sentences reverse on us, saying he only healed a few, and he marveled at their unbelief.

Might it be something else? Well yes, if Mark were in a fit of bad grammar, it could be. It does happen, though not terribly often. I'm just looking at it grammatically. I'm not sure how much good theology you can get from bad grammar though, so I wouldn't make a habit of it.

That's assuming it's bad grammar; I believe I recall seeing many verses that appear to be grammatically incorrect; at least they didn't sound all that good.

But then why would Jesus marvel at their lack of faith? If God/Jesus is not blocked from doing miracles not because he is not omnipotent but because he has chosen to give us free will and work with us through faith, why would Jesus marvel? Why would Jesus marvel at the Centurian's great faith? And criticise those who lack faith?

I think we have stumbled onto a profound philosophical question...("philisophical" for lack of a better term)

 

[heymikey80]

That's assuming it's bad grammar; I believe I recall seeing many verses that appear to be grammatically incorrect; at least they didn't sound all that good.

But then why would Jesus marvel at their lack of faith? If God/Jesus is not blocked from doing miracles not because he is not omnipotent but because he has chosen to give us free will and work with us through faith, why would Jesus marvel? Why would Jesus marvel at the Centurian's great faith? And criticise those who lack faith?

I think we have stumbled onto a profound philosophical question...("philisophical" for lack of a better term)

I'm not quite sure the question, so I may be answering around it.

Jesus points out that some people paradoxically resist the clear & natural conclusions that miracles would lead them to. "If you don't believe me, believe the miracles" in John, for instance. Jesus has natural expectations for people to believe Him. That's seems different to me from spiritual conversion and believing in Him.

In the parable of the Sower some of the cases are of people who "believe for a time". So there are kinds of belief that don't run-through to completion.

Me, I normally look for what kind of preposition follows: "belief in" seems to have the deepest implications for saving faith. But as James says, "You believe that God is One. Even the demons believe that, and tremble." Demons aren't saved by that belief about God, and I think James is saying neither are we.

 

[JTM3]

I guess the only thing we could do is try it the Calvinist way...then the WOF way...and see who gets the most noticeable results.

 

[heymikey80]

I guess the only thing we could do is try it the Calvinist way...then the WOF way...and see who gets the most noticeable results.

Sure if you're looking for noticeable results. If you're looking for lasting, real results the test results might need a little more careful examination.

 

[JTM3]

Sure if you're looking for noticeable results. If you're looking for lasting, real results the test results might need a little more careful examination.

At least your open minded . I'm not sure what you mean; I think the best test would obviously be a healing prayer; Calvinist vs. WOF methods of prayer.

 

[heymikey80]

At least your open minded . I'm not sure what you mean; I think the best test would obviously be a healing prayer; Calvinist vs. WOF methods of prayer.

I've been waiting on my WOF friends for decades for that prayer. It's for a mentor, it would be convincing to me, it'd probably persuade a denomination numbering in hundreds of thousands of members.

Believe and pray for his hands to be functionally healed. You'll know it, it'll explode across the pages of a major denomination.

 

[JTM3]

I've been waiting on my WOF friends for decades for that prayer. It's for a mentor, it would be convincing to me, it'd probably persuade a denomination numbering in hundreds of thousands of members.

Believe and pray for his hands to be functionally healed. You'll know it, it'll explode across the pages of a major denomination.

Wait, what? Could you clarify that for me?

 

[heymikey80]

Wait, what? Could you clarify that for me?

Sure. One of my longest-term mentors in the faith has hands damaged in an accident decades ago. Most of the joints in his hands are fused.

He's fairly well-known within his denomination, and even a little outside it. Were his hands made whole I definitely would have no qualms about spreading the story of the prayers that were directly associated with his healing as effective.

I've mentioned on other forums, I take a position in theology because it represents reality, but in a healing of this kind there is little but God prodding me to change my view.

 

[Rick Otto]

Bad grammar or not, you have to grant Jesus the full meaning of personality and imagine that some of what he said was rhetorical, meaning it wasn't meant to be taken at face value, but was meant to raise issues & start us thinking.

I think Leviticus is one of the books wherein we are specificaly commanded to "choose". Just because we are told to choose doesn't mean the choice isn't predetermined. And that doesn't render God disingenuous.

One of my biggest difficulties with letting go of the concept of free will was in understanding that it doesn't equate with letting go of personal responsibility. Another glitch for some people is discerning the difference between blame or guilt, & responsibility.

But all the rest of Reformed Theology I've found very liberating from the manipulations of taskministers, and easily understandable. I still have problems articulating it, but I'm very "centered" on it and it "works" for me.

So, I think His "marveling" was simply rhetorical ~ intended to stir us up.
On the other hand, it isn't unthinkable that He could marvel at (a part of)His own creation.
(Like,"Wow, did I realy make them THAT stupid? Whew!"

 

[pdudgeon]

ok, wading in here a bit...........

JTM3 has called for assistance so that's why i am here.

first the passage from Mark 6:5,6
we need to look at the context of the two verses in order to understand what is happening. Jesus and his disciples travel to his hometown where he stands up in the home synagog on the sabbath and preaches.

Now you would think that would be an easy gig, right? people knew Him, thought highly of him, and were probably interested in what he would have to say.

but whatever Jesus said (we don't know) and did surprized them. Now when he spoke elsewhere people marveled at how he taught with authority. but these people were familiar with Jesus the carpenter's son, the little kid who probably ran thru their streets when he was just a boy.

So why was it that the people were offended?
simply because they knew Jesus the man, they could not believe in Jesus, the Son of God.

today we know Jesus as the Son of God and so we have the opposite problem. We have a hard time believing that he was also a man and tempted in every way (just as we are), yet he was able to live a life free from sin. Our problem is not how could he heal but how could he resist?

So let's take that idea one step further. if we don't believe that we (like Jesus) can resist sin, does it make it that much harder to do so? I think we would all agree that it does. In fact, it is because of our disbelief of our ability to resist, where we actualy sabotage our chances of succeeding.

So in the same way Jesus was not able to do many miracles in his home town because the people..
1. did not believe that he was the Son of God.
2. did not believe that he had the power to do so
3. did not believe that he had the authority from God to
do so

In fact, they put their belief into the fact that they knew who Jesus was--the son of a carpenter. And so God did in fact reward thatfaith, and they were not healed.
only those who did believe that Jesus could heal were healed.

So why did Jesus marvel at their unbelief? Probably because He thought that if anyone would accept him, it woud be those who knew him best. And it probably broke his heart to see their unbelief.