Mark 1:8

[seanHayden]

What might have been JBaptist understanding of the Holy Spirit?

With some research I have found that one possibility is that JBaptist might have thought of the Holy Spirit as the Divine power of G_d that could fill a person; at least this idea of Divine power is associated with Judaism.

Also, I have found that baptism in the 1st Century was most likely a self-immersion used to cleanse the body from impurity, and JBaptist acted as a witness to this immersion.

With these two ideas in mind, might the following interpretation of Mark 1:8 be acceptable?

I witness the purification of the body with water.

But He will witness the purification of the body with the Divine power.

 

[Beasley]

What might have been JBaptist understanding of the Holy Spirit?

With some research I have found that one possibility is that JBaptist might have thought of the Holy Spirit as the Divine power of G_d that could fill a person; at least this idea of Divine power is associated with Judaism.

Also, I have found that baptism in the 1st Century was most likely a self-immersion used to cleanse the body from impurity, and JBaptist acted as a witness to this immersion.

With these two ideas in mind, might the following interpretation of Mark 1:8 be acceptable?

I witness the purification of the body with water.

But He will witness the purification of the body with the Divine power.

The Jews were still under the Mosaic Law when John appeared on the scene. They understood the ritual cleansings so it would seem to make sense. Peter, an apostle to the Jews later commented on the difference between cleansing with water and spiritual identification with Christ.

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

This passage makes it very clear that water baptism is not salvation but being placed inside of Christ, just as Noah and his family were preserved in the ark and did not get wet.

 

[Teke]

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

I agree with the previous poster, as baptism relates. Noah is an example, and so is Abraham and Isaac. Baptims relates the confession of faith in Christ. But Him baptizing you, is part of becoming the new creation in Christ, His Church. He "breathes" the new creation. "Breath' being associated with the Spirit.

 

[JohnR7]

What might have been JBaptist understanding of the Holy Spirit?

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

In the OT we read about how the Holy Spirit would come upon people. It was only the artists in the temple that were actually filled with the Holy Spirit.

It was on the day of Pentacost, at the beginning of the church age or the age of Grace that people began to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[seanHayden]

Thanks guys, some more thoughts:

JBaptist points to a qualitative difference between baptism by water and baptism by the Holy Spirit. Still, it is not clear what JBaptist meant by baptism in either case.

I think in order to understand what JBaptist was saying, I need to know what he understood the Holy Spirit to be, what baptism was, and what role he thought the Holy Spirit would play in baptism.

Some Ideas:

If baptism by water purified the body of a person who had sinned and then repented or had become unclean for some other reason, then perhaps JBaptist saw the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a more thorough cleansing.

We know that people who had become unclean could not enter the Temple precincts before they had been baptized.

How much further into the Temple could you go if you had been baptized by the Holy Spirit? (How much closer could your relationship to G_d become?)

It seems difficult though to attribute this last idea to anything JBaptist might have thought. We know he didn’t understand Jesus and he had his doubts as to His being the Christ. It would seem that the idea of being able to come into an intimate relationship with G_d because of baptism by the Holy Spirit – being able to draw nearer to G_d – would be something later Christians understood because of the death, resurrection, ascension and the gift of the Divine power. So, while this last idea may well be the intent of the person reading Mark 1:8 to Christians, I am not convinced it is what JBaptist meant when he said “but He will baptize with the Holy Spirit.”.

 

[Teke]

Only He can baptise you with the Holy Spirit. Meaning put you into the new creation, thereby you become part of the new creation. The Church/new creation has the breath of life.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is the Church He breaths on.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

 

[Teke]

Holy Ghost in this Mark verse is , Gr. pneuma hagion (without article) = power from on high.

Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:


Isa 44:4 And they shall spring up [as] among the grass, as willows by the water courses.

 

[seanHayden]

Holy Ghost in this Mark verse is , Gr. pneuma hagion (without article) = power from on high.

Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:


Isa 44:4 And they shall spring up [as] among the grass, as willows by the water courses.

Thank you for the greek Teke.

Maybe we can interpret what JBaptist said literally as being an exclamation like,

What I witness is good, but what He will witness is great! The cleansing you recieve here is good, but the cleansing He will give is awesome!

 

[Teke]

I agree Sean, and I think your on the right track here as to the point you made on entering the temple. ie. the Church

Now lets look at your other question.

I need to know what he understood the Holy Spirit

Here is a verse from Job, which I believe makes the best sense of THE Holy Spirit Himself (the person, not our spirit made a holy spirit).

All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Job 27:3

But there is a spirit in man: and
the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Job 32:8

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14

All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15

Job showed that God puts His Spirit in us so that we can "blow" that wind or spirit out of our mouth or nostril in holy imitation of Him

All humans have God's Spirit within them or they would be dead. However, those who use this god-given power of understanding to agree with God Who is pure or Holy Spirt are said to have a holy spirit.

When we speak, we exhale breath, wind or spirit. However, our breath which expresses the thoughts of our intellect are not another little person living within. The Holy Spirit is that breath breathed into the purely-human Adam who would be like a beast without that God-Breathed capacity to communicate with God who is PURE or holy Spirit.

 

[seanHayden]

That is profound, I need time to think about this!

 

[Biff]

John was an instrument used by God to baptize them whom God had converted with a physical baptism of water, to show that they had indeed repented of their sins.

Until the time of Jesus and in the OT, John the Baptist baptized with water for the remission of sins.

He said,
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus (in the NT) baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

It is clear that the "water baptism" of John saved no one. It was for them who have made his path straight in their hearts. Therefore John used it as an outward SIGN to express an inward [or spiritual] reality or faith that had already taken place.

That is precisely why the Jews were coming to John (the forerunner of Christ) to be baptized.

It is written -
Matthew 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

proving that -
our fleeing from the wrath to come and the conviction of the Spirit of Truth (John 16:8) is one and the same.

Without repentance through the Holy Spirit there is no salvation.

 

[seanHayden]

I wash you [with] water from rivers, He washes you with [in, by] Divine Power.


I think this probably makes the most sense--I am not an expert of course, but I think this might better convey what JBaptist was saying then does the implication we hear in Holy Spirit e.g. the third person of the triune G_d.


The Salkinson-Ginsburg Hebrew New Testament (1999) uses Ruach HaKodesh in Luke 3:16 (Same as Mark 1:8).


According to Judaism 101, Ruach HaKodesh is the Divine Spirit.
As in "The Book of Psalms was written with the inspiration of the Divine Spirit"


Already I pointed out that Ruach HaKodesh might have meant the Power of G_d to JBaptist e.g. Divine Power.


You think a rushing river can cleanse you, well then friends, what do you say of the cleansing Power of G_d!