Mariology

[Benedicta00]

Hate to burst your bubble, but the churches i've been to do not mention the RCC,

Consider yourself lucky that you never endured anti Catholic Sunday worship or bible study. Not everyone is that lucky.

I know for a fact that Jesus is who the Bible says He is, God is our hope, our salvation, who we run to.

and I know for a fact that the Catholic Church teaches the same thing.

 

[Iollain]

sure........along with.

 

[repentant]

Hate to burst your bubble, but the churches i've been to do not mention the RCC, they are stuck on Scripture and really do not know what you teach. Just like when i first came here, everything just rang bells as in Scripture verses, then i was told to go look into the RCC, so i did. And i still hear those bells going off .....i read this........i know for a fact that there is Scripture that disagrees. I know for a fact that Jesus is who the Bible says He is, God is our hope, our salvation, who we run to.

Yeah, Protestants really don't care, when we have an entire sub topic created because Protestants love to talk about how we "worship" Mary...

and really do not know what you teach

Exactly..

 

[Tonks]

Folks...let's try and address the OP and avoid some of the other stuff. Likewise, I believe that the post #16 by the OP is a good jumping off point where theology is concerned.

Thanks.

 

[Iollain]

Yeah, Protestants really don't care, when we have an entire sub topic created because Protestants love to talk about how we "worship" Mary...



Exactly..

Nope, if i went over to the Baptist church this Sunday and said what i've found out they would do this:

Yes it is true a lot of them come here and want to know what is going on, if i did not come here and see i'd still wonder who that strange bunch of long-haired dudes were carrying around icons on the news and would not have a clue that they are brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Benedicta00]

Long haired dudes? Who had long hair?

 

[repentant]

Nope, if i went over to the Baptist church this Sunday and said what i've found out they would do this:

Yes it is true a lot of them come here and want to know what is going on, if i did not come here and see i'd still wonder who that strange bunch of long-haired dudes were carrying around icons on the news and would not have a clue that they are brothers and sisters in Christ.

And that is how we react to you..

And I'm lost on the long haired dudes on the news thing..

 

[Benedicta00]

I was thinking maybe she saw some Orthodox dudes on the news because I can't recall any pope or bishop having long hair that carried an icon around.

 

[simonthezealot]

I think fundamentalist have problems with Marian Dogma because of how close the all Christian traditions are very close to each other, so the focus is on the differences instead of the commonalities. Could also be the masculine nature of fundamentalism is just kind of turned off by the femininity of Mary. Could just be a way of distinguishing yourselves from the Catholic Church, but this only explains how it started because a lot of fundamentalist churches are not in Catholic areas (but then again a lot of them are).
Also the role of Tradition would really be unattractive to fundamentalists (right?)
Simon you mention that you do not like seeing the Blessed Mother receive adoration, that makes sense because you see it as creature worship, so I guess socialization plays a big part in this whole thing. I was always taught that there was a big difference between the prayers to Mary and prayers to God. As a fundamentalist you just have prayer right? So creatures getting prayer would seem evil.
I dunno these are my thoughts, take them for what they are. Oh and Simon, it was very nice to see you make this thread, I think this could be a good place to talk some stuff out.

Thank you Rhamiel, this thread is for a better understanding... My post #16 was an effort to explain why we feel the way we do and I prreciate your understanding that as opposed to taking it personal...
And BTW i think you summarized things quite accurately.
I am going to make an effort on this thread to only post to questions directed toward me seeing as every time I make a POV comment people get defensive.
Rhamiel, thanks for being levelheaded my brother.
Simon

 

[Benedicta00]

Simon, I just told you what I think based on my experiences. You asked us to weigh in and I did.

You present for us many misconceptions and ideas of Catholics and I just want to know, just where did you come up with all these false notions that you think Catholics do if it wasn't because you were told these things by others?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

how is everything that is out plain as day is false, or this that or the other site/book etc is false. ALL I hear in any of these threads any more is EVERYTHING is false. OR whatever...sheesh.

 

[simonthezealot]

You present for us many misconceptions and ideas of Catholics and I just want to know, just where did you come up with all these false notions that you think Catholics do if it wasn't because you were told these things by others?

……….
Thanks for asking….Or should I say thanks for judging me!

I present things that anyone having read what I read, would ask the same questions.

That being said…

I have a 14 year old son who’s Mother and I divorced a number of years back, after she remarried we decided to send my son to Catholic school having been raised LCMS, it didn’t seem to be to different from that and I originally didn’t object.
Then my son came for my parenting time, as I perused his backpack I came across a flier promoting the Miraculous Medal


The first paragraph started out with this….

The Medal of the Immaculate Conception — popularly known as the Miraculous Medal — was designed by the Blessed Virgin herself! No wonder, then that it wins such extraordinary graces for those who wear it and pray for Mary's intercession and help.

Needless to say, this caught my attention in a very disturbing way. A creature having an affect as such, and a medal being a good luck charm so to speak?
I went out and bought the CCC and started reading and comparing to scripture, then I started reading other things the Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum, the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, the more I compared the more shocked I became.
I don’t believe it should take a rocket scientist to understand God’s written instructions, and the more I looked into the more I saw of it.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

……….
Thanks for asking….Or should I say thanks for judging me!

I present things that anyone having read what I read, would ask the same questions.

That being said…

I have a 14 year old son who’s Mother and I divorced a number of years back, after she remarried we decided to send my son to Catholic school having been raised LCMS, it didn’t seem to be to different from that and I originally didn’t object.
Then my son came for my parenting time, as I perused his backpack I came across a flier promoting the Miraculous Medal


The first paragraph started out with this….

The Medal of the Immaculate Conception — popularly known as the Miraculous Medal — was designed by the Blessed Virgin herself! No wonder, then that it wins such extraordinary graces for those who wear itand pray for Mary's intercession and help.

Needless to say, this caught my attention in a very disturbing way. A creature having an affect as such, and a medal being a good luck charm so to speak?
I went out and bought the CCC and started reading and comparing to scripture, then I started reading other things the Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum, the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, the more I compared the more shocked I became.
I don’t believe it should take a rocket scientist to understand God’s written instructions, and the more I looked into the more I saw of it.

I remember quite vividly when Oral Roberts claimed that God would kill him if the people didn't come up with millions of dollars in donations.

I also note the views of those who are the subject of the film "Jesus Camp."

In neither of these cases do I make the suggestion that these are mainstream Protestanism or Evangelicalism.

Yet some Protestants- some- are quite comfortable using fringe Catholic ideas as representative of Catholicism.

 

[Benedicta00]

……….
Thanks for asking….Or should I say thanks for judging me!

I present things that anyone having read what I read, would ask the same questions.

That being said…

I have a 14 year old son who’s Mother and I divorced a number of years back, after she remarried we decided to send my son to Catholic school having been raised LCMS, it didn’t seem to be to different from that and I originally didn’t object.
Then my son came for my parenting time, as I perused his backpack I came across a flier promoting the Miraculous Medal


The first paragraph started out with this….

The Medal of the Immaculate Conception — popularly known as the Miraculous Medal — was designed by the Blessed Virgin herself! No wonder, then that it wins such extraordinary graces for those who wear it and pray for Mary's intercession and help.

Needless to say, this caught my attention in a very disturbing way. A creature having an affect as such, and a medal being a good luck charm so to speak?
I went out and bought the CCC and started reading and comparing to scripture, then I started reading other things the Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum, the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, the more I compared the more shocked I became.
I don’t believe it should take a rocket scientist to understand God’s written instructions, and the more I looked into the more I saw of it.

and when we try to explain to you what it is, and how it is to be taken and in what context.. you do not listen to any of what we say, you just debate us.

And in what way have I judged you? I don't judge your soul, I just tell you what i think is the reason and you did ask me a catholic to weigh in.

You see here's the deal from where I sit, you do come from a back ground where Catholicism is foreign to you so when you do come across bits and pieces of DEVOTIONAL material, not even doctrinal, since you don't know what Catholicism is about, you draw your own conclusions and pretty much have made up your mind that we are Mary worshippers.

And somehow you've personalized this to mean that this false notion effects your devotion to God (I haven't yet figured out just how??)

So when yo do finally come to a Catholic questioning him, you really aren't questioning, you are just trying to show him how wrong he is and how he worships a creature of God and not God.

When he tries to explain everything to you- you just can not hear him, I mean you listen but you aren't hearing him.

Catholics and Orthodx's worship is the Mass and the Divine Liturgy.

We offer to God the sacrifice of Jesus that has transcended time and space and from God's alter in heaven, He sends down to us the Real Presence of our Lord in Holy Communion where we then are joined to him as he binds himself to us and he is closer to us then we are to ourselves.

Then we spend time on the knees thanking our Lord for his sacrifice and coming to us and bonding with us. This is what we believe is the heavenly worship that John saw in his vision and we believe this heavenly worship comes down to us and we are one with heaven in the mystic realm of things.

This is how we worship God and what it is to worship in the fullest sense. We worship spirit and in truth.

Now if we e-v-e-r offered up Christ's sacrifice to Mary then we would be worshipping her.

Prayer to us is not worship. Loving her and honoring her for who and what she is, is not worshipping her.

It all devotional and one is never told they have to wear her medal, pray to her or have any kind of devotion to her.

Now I have told you the truth, it's up to you now. Do what ever you want with the information, just do not misrepresent any of what I said.

 

[simonthezealot]

I remember quite vividly when Oral Roberts claimed that God would kill him if the people didn't come up with millions of dollars in donations.

I also note the views of those who are the subject of the film "Jesus Camp."

In neither of these cases do I make the suggestion that these are mainstream Protestanism or Evangelicalism.

Yet some Protestants- some- are quite comfortable using fringe Catholic ideas as representative of Catholicism.

Dei verbum the CCC and Miraculous medal are fringe???

 

[simonthezealot]

and when we try to explain to you what it is, and how it is to be taken and in what context.. you do not listen to any of what we say, you just debate us.

I listen and further challenge you to defend your stance, if this is something in which you struggle, you should consider your stance.
I ask that you do the same for me as I am ready at any point to defend my faith.

You see here's the deal from where I sit, you do come from a back ground where Catholicism is foreign to you so when you do come across bits and pieces of DEVOTIONAL material, not even doctrinal, since you don't know what Catholicism is about, you draw your own conclusions and pretty much have made up your mind that we are Mary worshippers..

I've never once called you a Mary worshipper...

If you look into my past posts (I don't block them like you do) you'll find a thread where I asked Catholics to question whether or not I understood Catholicism... out of about 70-80 questions I was stumped once, I am probably better read on catholicism than most average Catholic

So when you do finally come to a Catholic questioning him, you really aren't questioning, you are just trying to show him how wrong he is and how he worships a creature of God and not God...

Wrong? nope, I've a 2 point goal! 1.) Have them consider their position 2.) Get any protestants considering conversion to rethink it.

My arguement is never with you. It's for the lurking readers whose opinions may be in limbo.

 

[Rhamiel]

Simon, why does it bother you that Mary designed a medal? The medal is ment to be used as a reminder of how we are ment to live our lives, it does nothing if you just wear it and lead a sinful life

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon, why does it bother you that Mary designed a medal? The medal is ment to be used as a reminder of how we are ment to live our lives, it does nothing if you just wear it and lead a sinful life

It doesn't bother me but that note was given to my then 12 year old son. How was he to decifer what was really meant?
It sounds like a rabbits foot.
The note....
The Medal of the Immaculate Conception — popularly known as the Miraculous Medal — was designed by the Blessed Virgin herself! No wonder, then that it wins such extraordinary graces .

This isn't what the OP is about only why I started studying Catholicism.

 

[Hentenza]

and when we try to explain to you what it is, and how it is to be taken and in what context.. you do not listen to any of what we say, you just debate us.

And in what way have I judged you? I don't judge your soul, I just tell you what i think is the reason and you did ask me a catholic to weigh in.

You see here's the deal from where I sit, you do come from a back ground where Catholicism is foreign to you so when you do come across bits and pieces of DEVOTIONAL material, not even doctrinal, since you don't know what Catholicism is about, you draw your own conclusions and pretty much have made up your mind that we are Mary worshippers.

And somehow you've personalized this to mean that this false notion effects your devotion to God (I haven't yet figured out just how??)

So when yo do finally come to a Catholic questioning him, you really aren't questioning, you are just trying to show him how wrong he is and how he worships a creature of God and not God.

When he tries to explain everything to you- you just can not hear him, I mean you listen but you aren't hearing him.

Catholics and Orthodx's worship is the Mass and the Divine Liturgy.

We offer to God the sacrifice of Jesus that has transcended time and space and from God's alter in heaven, He sends down to us the Real Presence of our Lord in Holy Communion where we then are joined to him as he binds himself to us and he is closer to us then we are to ourselves.

Then we spend time on the knees thanking our Lord for his sacrifice and coming to us and bonding with us. This is what we believe is the heavenly worship that John saw in his vision and we believe this heavenly worship comes down to us and we are one with heaven in the mystic realm of things.

This is how we worship God and what it is to worship in the fullest sense. We worship spirit and in truth.

Now if we e-v-e-r offered up Christ's sacrifice to Mary then we would be worshipping her.

Prayer to us is not worship. Loving her and honoring her for who and what she is, is not worshipping her.

It all devotional and one is never told they have to wear her medal, pray to her or have any kind of devotion to her.

Now I have told you the truth, it's up to you now. Do what ever you want with the information, just do not misrepresent any of what I said.

Hi Bene,

I agree completely with your summation. I know that to be true from my years as a Catholic.
The confusion comes from the amount of veneration given to Mary by the Catholic church. The Mary listed in scripture seems like a different person in Cathic church tradition.
I have nothing but admiration for the mother of Christ, and so did the apostles. However, other than in the gospels there is virtually no mention of her after that. If her role was supposed to be that important, why is it not recorded beyond the gospels?
I ask this question honestly, not argumentaly.

You brother in Christ

 

[Benedicta00]

Dei verbum the CCC and Miraculous medal are fringe???

No, but I doubt that is what he meant.