Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

zippy2006 · Aug 7, 2021

Hmm said:
It is more accurate to say by translation rather than definition...

I don't really have time to address all of the mistaken assumptions here. The point is that this OP and Adams' paper argue against an eternal Hell, which is what all English speakers understand by the word Hell when used in the Christian theological context. It is precisely (eternal) Hell that the historical heresies are associated with.

This is just elementary stuff. It is sophistry to claim that the traditional heresy of denying Hell would not apply to the OP or to Adams' position. Adams herself would be the first to admit that she is arguing against established Christian tradition.

(This conversation is drawing quickly to a close...)

Hmm · Aug 7, 2021

zippy2006 said:
which is what all English speakers understand by the word Hell when used in the Christian theological context

Exactly. The point you are not grasping or are avoiding is that the early Greek speaking church did not understand Hell in this way because they were spared the English mistranslations.

zippy2006 said:
This is just elementary stuff

It is indeed.

zippy2006 · Aug 7, 2021

Hmm said:
Exactly. The point you are not grasping or are avoiding is that the early Greek speaking church did not understand Hell in this way because they were spared the English mistranslations.

So now you're making linguistic arguments about Greek words and and the early Christian community... I would invite you to trace your red herring back to rails and get back on the train.

Have a good day.

Hmm · Aug 7, 2021

zippy2006 said:
So now you're making linguistic arguments about Greek words and and the early Christian community... I would invite you to trace your red herring back to rails and get back on the train.

Have a good day.

Red herrings don't run on rails but thanks for this example of how English can confuse and also for the ad hominem.

Sabertooth · Aug 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
But if you prefer to defer to a mistranslation,...

“You will not surely die..."

Der Alte · Aug 7, 2021

Reagan was president when I joined this forum. I realized early on that the same arguments and often out-of-context proof texts were repeated ad nauseum so I started saving all my responses and adding to them as I became aware of additional scriptural proofs.
…..According to three Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
These sources are irrefutable insofar as they document the Jewish belief in hell.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Jay Sea · Aug 7, 2021

public hermit said:
Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

I remember getting taught that G-d is infinitely good, merciful, all powerful etc. So I have no difficulty in saying that Hell is not a concept that is in keeping with such a G-d. Yeshua emphasises forgiveness and compassion and asks us to pray to forgive others as we wish to be forgiven. I surmise that any hell will be self induced when we realise our unforgiveness until we manage to forgive ourselves and our enemies and love all mankind irrespective of gender spectrum or race or religion etc.
In LOve
Jay Sea

Saint Steven · Aug 7, 2021

Sabertooth said:
“You will not surely die..."

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Sabertooth · Aug 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

That is still true in the ECT model of Hell.

Jipsah · Aug 7, 2021

Davy said:
Man's reasoning is not God's. End of that argument.

So it's back to God creating people He knows are going to be roasted for all eternity.

Jipsah · Aug 7, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven.

Kinda like a lifeguard forcing drowning people out of the water. Unconscionable!

even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell.

Sorry, pure sophistry.

We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.

And as we know, according to Scripture Our Choices are all important, and God is powerless to act against them, even for our own good.

Sparagmos · Aug 8, 2021

TedT said:
i refute it in post #39. If you dispute my post, that does not make it a non-refutation but only not convincing to you.

You don’t address any of McCord’s argument in post 39. You don’t refer to it at all. You refer to a bunch of rules that God himself made. He created people who have mostly failed to meet his requirement to escape eternal punishment. Whatever flaws exist in us, he created.

Saint Steven · Aug 8, 2021

Sabertooth said:
That is still true in the ECT model of Hell.

Yes, that model claims God designed a form of torture that would keep people alive while they burn. Thus accusing God of senseless cruelty. (slander)

Maria Billingsley · Aug 8, 2021

public hermit said:
Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

1 Corinthians 6 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
If in fact Christians take part in judgment, then we should consider what we would chose as punishment for the wicked. Blessings.

TedT · Aug 8, 2021

Sparagmos said:
You don’t address any of McCord’s argument in post 39. You don’t refer to it at all. You refer to a bunch of rules that God himself made. He created people who have mostly failed to meet his requirement to escape eternal punishment. Whatever flaws exist in us, he created.

Why refute the argument when it is completely out of my Christian context?

Why refute the argument when it is completely out of my Christian context? HIS divine attributes do not interfere with hIS incarceration the eternally evil ones in the outer darkness that feels like hell and I explain why. Adam’s does not speak to my arguments but only to her own narrow understanding, ignoring the need for and consequences of our free will. Not dealing with our free will is a huge blunder, huge, and so I pass over her arguments as moot.

Hate or worship the God who created our flaws or not but Christians usually don't think HE created us flawed but that all flaws are a result of our free will decision to break accord with HIM and choose to sin.

Sparagmos · Aug 8, 2021

TedT said:
Why refute the argument when it is completely out of my Christian context? Hate or worship the God who created our flaws or not but Christians usually don't think HE created us flawed but that all flaws are a result of our free will decision to break accord with HIM and choose to sin.

TedT said:
i refute it in post #39. If you dispute my post, that does not make it a non-refutation but only not convincing to you.

Looks like you are arguing with yourself, LOL.

Where did the flaws come from, if not from the Creator? Who designed a universe where people could choose horrible things? Why not just make all of the possible choices good things?

TedT · Aug 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Yes, that model claims God designed a form of torture that would keep people alive while they burn. Thus accusing God of senseless cruelty. (slander)

Yes, a slander.

Telling the story badly is proof of bias.

Eternal banishment is not a devised torture but a judgment against the crimes of the reprobate which is an absolute necessity to keep HIS heavenly communion safe from their predation.

Incarceration feels like torture to every prisoner...but they knew the chance they were taking because they would rather take the chance on hell that ever have to bow or ever be married to HIM, having put their faith in his being lir and a false god, alas.

TedT · Aug 8, 2021

Sparagmos said:
Looks like you are arguing with yourself, LOL.

Where did the flaws come from, if not from the Creator? Who designed a universe where people could choose horrible things? Why not just make all of the possible choices good things?

I agreed already that HE could have have made all of the possible choices to be good but then HE could not have the heavenly marriage, the purpose of HIS creating us, because the heavenly marriage depended upon our free will acceptance of that marriage proposal and a free will must be able to reject the proposal. HE did not want to marry a Stepford wife...

Obviously HE felt that the chance everyone would chose to reject HIM was worth it to attempt to increase the love in existence and it actually worked out quite well.

Sparagmos · Aug 8, 2021

TedT said:
I agreed already that HE could have have made all of the possible choices to be good but then HE could not have the heavenly marriage, the purpose of HIS creating us, because the heavenly marriage depended upon our free will acceptance of that marriage proposal and a free will must be able to reject the proposal. HE did not want to marry a Stepford wife...

We’ll who came up with that rule, a rule he knew was destined to cause so many of his creation to suffer in eternal torment?

TedT said:
Obviously HE felt that the chance everyone would chose to reject HIM was worth it to attempt to increase the love in existence and it actually worked out quite well.

Why didn’t he come up with a way to “increase the love in existence" that wouldn’t involve so much suffering?

Der Alte · Aug 8, 2021

Hmm said:
Exactly. The point you are not grasping or are avoiding is that the early Greek speaking church did not understand Hell in this way because they were spared the English mistranslations. ***

Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support this claim?
The Instructions of Commodianus in Favour of Christian Discipline. Against the Gods of the Heathens.XXVI. To Those Who Resist the Law of Christ the Living God.
Thou rejectest, unhappy one, the advantage of heavenly discipline, and rushest into death while wishing to stray without a bridle. Luxury and the shortlived joys of the world are raining thee, whence thou shalt be tormented in hell for all time.
He enjoys delights which thou, O wicked one, hast lost; and when thou hast called back the world, he also has gone before, and will be immortal: for thou shalt wail in hell.
XXIX His own law teaches thee; but since thou seekest to wander, thou disbelievest all things, and thence thou shalt go into hell. By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.

Hippolytus The Refutation of All Heresies. Book X. Chap. XXX.
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell’s55 eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum56 has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall thou avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God.

The Epistles of Cyprian. Epistle XXX.
7. He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell.157 He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.

Lactantius The Divine Institutes. Book II. Chap. XVIII
Whoever shall have worshipped and followed these most wicked spirits, will neither enjoy heaven nor the light, which are God’s; but will fall into those things which we have spoken of as being assigned in the distribution of things to the prince of the evil ones himself, - namely, into darkness, and hell, and everlasting punishment.

Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

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