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She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever
Only God knows the difference why Saul was a worthwhile investment, as opposed to others.
God said,
“...I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and
I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Exodus 33:19 NKJV
and,
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9 NKJV
That means God is either flippant on whom He receives, or He has good reasons that are beyond our understanding.
It's because God is perfectly good that there is a hell.
To protect his sheep from unrepentant wolves.
No, but you lack an object in the equation. Humanbeings who are willful, often wrong and stubborn. Some are ignorant of scripture, some have no faith, some are evil. Since you called hell for H, then this is M for man. Not sure, but circuimstances and reaction should perhaps be there too. People get a choice, and if my choices are empirical evidence for me, it is like 95% wrong choices made.So, do you reject that premise that says if God were all powerful, God would be able to avoid sending people to hell forever. Perhaps God is not more powerful than human hate?
If it was ever true, that was the only time it could be.Or, are you just saying the argument holds pre-angelic fall?
I think God is good, all powerful, and all knowing, but that we just can't see it. So we think God is a lesser being with limits. I'm not talking about the silly limits like whether God can make a rock He cannot lift. I'm thinking a free God made us free in His image, and that has real consequences for God permitting what he does not enjoy.We all do, in some way or another, I think. We are brought into a situation where we can not do all the good we want, and certainly not all we should, which is why Xns embrace grace. It makes sense given our condition.
So, perhaps God is not perfectly good, and will only extend grace to those whom God chooses. Maybe God is more free than we assume, i.e. free in regards to goodness, free to destroy or torment those who could have been saved by grace. Or, perhaps God is limited in having the power to save, saving only those who freely want to be saved? No matter where we place the freedom, it seems God could avoid sending people to hell unless we limit one of the divine attributes, which may actually be the case. I don't know.
No, but you lack an object in the equation. Humanbeings who are willful, often wrong and stubborn. Some are ignorant of scripture, some have no faith, some are evil. Since you called hell for H, then this is M for man. Not sure, but circuimstances and reaction should perhaps be there too. People get a choice, and if my choices are empirical evidence for me, it is like 95% wrong choices made.
I'm thinking a free God made us free in His image, and that has real consequences for God permitting what he does not enjoy.
Is capable, but as I understand it, not willing, if we do not free our hearts of hate, and pray to join heaven. We must cleanse our hearts to get it. How can we get the choice, not do what is required, and get in? If there is not something I am unawere of. I think I should revisit the Adam and Eve story and some other stuff. If I remember correct, they were sent out of the Garden, never to return till they sought the kingdom with pure hearts, and the return is to heavens gates. So kind of where Eden is. Paraphrased and interpreted by myself. So our job is to rid us of those emotions that Adam and Eve got first, shame, fear, despair, etc. And we should get a childlike and innocent mind and heart again, which means reborn to me. I have never thought it was open to all in my life, even when I was an atheist.Good point, humanity isn't really part of the argument, except in H. Isn't God capable of overcoming willful, sinful, stubborn, humans? Maybe not? If God is capable, why doesn't God do whatever is necessary to ensure that all come around? Perhaps what the argument needs is a proper account of human freedom and the constraints that puts on God to save? That is how Plantinga defeated Mackie's argument, which is similar to this one. I think you're on the most promising path, at any rate.
Is capable, but as I understand it, not willing, if we do not free our hearts of hate, and pray to join heaven. We must cleanse our hearts to get it. How can we get the choice, not do what is required, and get in? If there is not something I am unawere of. I think I should revisit the Adam and Eve story and some other stuff. If I remember correct, they were sent out of the Garden, never to return till they sought the kingdom with pure hearts, and the return is to heavens gates. So kind of where Eden is. Paraphrased and interpreted by myself. So our job is to rid us of those emotions that Adam and Eve got first, shame, fear, despair, etc. And we should get a childlike and innocent mind and heart again, which means reborn to me. I have never thought it was open to all in my life, even when I was an atheist.
If you have a contrite spirit and a humble attitude, like a little child, He will show you compassion. God is love and desires a relationship with his created servants.
We are admonished to choose between life and death in scriptures. Being on the outside looking in, is our own choosing.
We cannot choose our time of birth, nor the time of our natural death, but between these two events we must make many choices.
The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.
Jesus said,I'm not going to pretend to know how to delineate the relationship between God's grace and our effort, though there must be one.
Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.
She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever
The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)
This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.
https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf
Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia
Jesus said,
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me,
for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30 NKJV
The "rest" and "ease" are grace, but His "yoke" is still an effort within that grace.
Not in every case. Not while leaving the "will" component of love intact.Do you think it is possible for God to bring about the appropriate contrite spirit and humble attitude needed for divine compassion?
e argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)
This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.
No. I am saying that it is easier to surrender (and re-surrender, as needed) to Him, than it is to meet the "legal" standard necessary to get into Heaven.Are you telling me that living according to God's will is easy?
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