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Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

justinangel

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I don’t believe that Marian devotion opposes the Gospel message any more than prayer and devotion to the saints do. I never said that it did. I said that that devotion is associated with the Roman Catholic church and that God would not likely sanction “apparitions” which lend credence to an organization which masked and distorted the gospel message.


So if it's the credibility of the Catholic Church that puts the authenticity of Marian apparitions into question, how is it you are confident that the books and letters in your Bible are genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit? How is it that God could sanction the canon of Scripture which lends credence to the Catholic Church whose magisterium "distorts the gospel message and masks the truth"? :confused:

PAX
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Marvin Knox

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So if it's the credibility of the Catholic Church that put's the authenticity of Marian apparitions into question, how is that you are confident that the books and letters in your Bible are genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit? How is it that God could sanction the canon of Scripture which lends credence to the Catholic Church whose magisterium "distorts the gospel message and masks the truth"? :confused:

PAX
:angel:
I do not believe that the canon of Scripture, whatever method God used to assure it’s continuance, lends credence to the Catholic Church. God often uses the base things of this world to establish the holy. He used the sins of men to provide salvation and He can use an unholy institution to establish and protect His word.


I do not believe that the Scriptures lend credence to all of the doctrines Catholic church. To the contrary -as in the Reformation - it is the pure milk of the Word that brings to light the egregious nature of some of the doctrines of the Catholic church. That is why the Catholic church tried so hard to suppress it. If they had had their way - you wouldn't be able to study the Scriptures in your own language in order to make an argument one way or the other.


And, yes, I believe by faith that the canon of Scripture is the Word of God.
 
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Albion

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justinangel;66531547How is it that God could sanction the canon of Scripture which lends credence to the Catholic Church whose magisterium "distorts the gospel message and masks the truth[/QUOTE said:
Probably because the canon of Scripture does NOT lend credence to the Roman Catholic Church and its theory about its magisterium being infallible. Simple. :)
 
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Marvin Knox

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We could all argue particulars until the Lord returns and not agree. To me the bottom line argument has to come down to something like the question I always pose to the Mormons who come to my door.

You believe that the traditions of your church are to be considered along with the original Scriptures. Fine – we can agree to disagree.

But the question it seems to me is whether the additional layers of belief and practice change the original revelation we have in Scripture in any appreciable way. If one believes that it takes a certain thing and only that thing to be saved- after reading only the Scriptures – is that message distorted or changed appreciably after adding traditions? If the message is changed – it seems wise to return to the original and stay with it. Our life depends on the message once delivered to the saints. There is too much at stake to let anyone tinker with it after it was delivered.

The Mormon way of salvation ends up distorted and added to. The J.W. way of salvation ends up distorted and added to. The Roman Catholic way of salvation ends up distorted and added to.

We all believe that God delivered the original message through His prophets and apostles. We do not all agree as to the other layers of tradition and interpretations by special people.

Wisdom dictates that we stay with the original. I have cast my lot with the prophet’s, Apostle’s, and disciple’s writings as brought to light through my relationship with the Holy Spirit. If you pick some additional material that distorts and changes the simple message of the original – good luck with that.

The reformer staked their lives on trying to see exactly what the core of the salvation message was without tradition added. It seems to me that they were remarkably uniform in their rejection of Roman Catholic traditions that had been added.

Marian appearances seem to only add credence to those things rejected by the reformers.

Add the Mary stuff if you want to. Add priests and Popes if you want to. I’m going to stake my future on a personal communication with God that I rest in the finished work of Jesus on the cross for my salvation – once for all.

I hope and pray that I will see you all on the other side. But some of your choices just don’t seem to be wise to me.
:wave:
 
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justinangel

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I do not believe that the canon of Scripture, whatever method God used to assure it’s continuance, lends credence to the Catholic Church. God often uses the base things of this world to establish the holy. He used the sins of men to provide salvation and He can use an unholy institution to establish and protect His word.

I suppose Jesus wasn't telling the truth when he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church (cf. Mt 16:18) or that he would send the Holy Spirit to be with his Church "forever" and guide her "in all truth" (cf. Jn 14:16, 26; 16:12-13). How can the Church be an unholy institution if the Holy Spirit is with her? There was but one visible church and unified body when Paul described her as "the unblemished bride of Christ". This is the same visible and hierarchical church in which the Church Fathers belonged.

"We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the 'pillar and ground of truth'; in which, as a whole, is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe, 'Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.'"
Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Tract 30 (A.D. 244)


I do not believe that the Scriptures lend credence to all of the doctrines Catholic church. To the contrary -as in the Reformation - it is the pure milk of the Word that brings to light the egregious nature of some of the doctrines of the Catholic church. That is why the Catholic church tried so hard to suppress it. If they had had their way - you wouldn't be able to study the Scriptures in your own language in order to make an argument one way or the other.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110)

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110)

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."
Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 165)

"The bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200)


The Bishop of Antioch was a disciple of the apostle John. All Catholic doctrines, including the Real Presence, are rooted in the teachings of the apostles (cf. Jn 6:22-59). So I find it hard to believe that they are conspicuously erroneous as you regard them to be by your understanding of the Scriptures. The Catholic Church has existed since Pentecost in apostolic time. The Holy Spirit descended on the apostles so that the Church, as promised by our Lord, would be guided in all truth in matters of faith and morals. So it does appear that the Blessed Virgin Mary's appearances in the Catholic Church confirm that it is the one holy and apostolic Church founded by Christ. For this reason, I believe, many Protestants dismiss them as demonic. Anyway, the religious academicians of the 16th century didn't reform anything, but rather created a visible division in Christendom with the endless rise of independent and autonomous denominations (cf. Mt 12:30). And I doubt that our Lord waited 16 centuries to correct and enlighten Christendom with the divine truth after being entirely on its own all this time (cf. Jn 14:18).

And, yes, I believe by faith that the canon of Scripture is the Word of God.

If God has been faithful in the transmission of His written word (Scripture), then I'm sure he has been faithful in the transmission of His unwritten word (Tradition) through the Catholic Church. Thus if you faithfully believe that the canon of Scripture is genuine, then you must put your faith in the Catholic Church. You wouldn't have your Bible if it weren't for the magisterium of the Church. Moreover, the Scriptures you read must be read in light of sacred Tradition, from which the meaning of Scripture proceeds. I know you think that God used this wicked institution to deliver the Bible to every doorstep so that each and every one of us should be enlightened by His true word. But when Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock I will build my Church," he didn't mean that he would establish his church for the production of the Bible and then abandon her.

PAX
:angel:
 
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justinangel

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Probably because the canon of Scripture does NOT lend credence to the Roman Catholic Church and its theory about its magisterium being infallible. Simple. :)

If the magisterium is as fallible as you believe it is, then how can you be sure that your Bible has God for its author? Did a little birdie tell you so? :confused:

And don't tell me that the Scriptures speak for themselves. The Didache can just as well attest to itself by its contents.


PAX
:angel:
 
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Defensor Christi

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Mormons claim original authority and that they are the one true church. They can say the same about every other church. Your statement doesn't prove anything other than you believe the Catholic church is the one true church.

And no that's not what EVERYBODY says. Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses and Catholics claim scripture cannot be correctly understood without the church's divinely appointed leadership from which God reveals divine truth through the holy spirit.

You...again, are proving my point...you seem to believe (as to most Protestants) that their personal interpretation is correct because they are led by the Holy Spirit...the fact that you bring up Mormons is exactly what I am talking about!!! So you believe you, Mr Moe, are the keeper of the truth because you were led by the spirit...Psssssttttt...so does every protestant.




mrmoe said:

Yes, man oh man, did you show me...LOL, you showed me that (as you are doing again) reason does not matter to you, proof does not matter to you...you proved that you horang someone until they throw in the towel...the same thing happened to me when talking to JW's, at the point where they continue to repeat the same thing (see below) over and again...my patience wears thin...ala, your link.


mrmoe said:
I'm not a Catholic and there are no Catholic churches where I live but from what I've read from Catholic websites about Mortal sins that it would be a yes.

Must be a pretty remote location to not have a Catholic Church close enough...




mrmoe=Well here's the full text if you ever fell like reading through it. [URL="http://archive.org/stream/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft_djvu.txt" said:
Full text of "The glories of Mary"[/url]

What of it?




mrmoe said:
Okay here's the context.

. The author was the apostle Paul
. It was written around 55-56 A.D.
. Paul wrote to the church he had founded in Corinth and to the house churches in Achaia.
. Paul was in Macedonia when he wrote 2 Corinthians,
.Paul used this letter to explain his delay in returning to them as he had promised in 1Co 16:5-9.
. He didn't want to come to them until all differences were reconciled (2Co 1:23-2:3) and that wasn't complete yet.

Now tell me, does that change anything regarding satan's ability to transform himself into an angel of light and his minister into ministers of righteousness?

How can Satan's ministers transform into ministers of righteousness?



mrmoe said:
In Acts 16:17 a spirit of divination cries out: "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." Paul was preaching that Jesus was the way of salvation.

What do you think the spirit's intention was for saying this?

Why do you think?
 
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Defensor Christi

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marvin knox said:
The official stance of your organization is to pronounce a curse on anyone who professes simple faith in the sufficiency of Christ’s accomplishments at Calvary and who will not subscribe to and participate in the dogma of Rome. That is a fact.


Thousands of believers have died screaming on a burning stake while their family watched and cried and your priests held up wooden crosses and chanted Latin phrases. Their only crime was to translate the Bible into their own language or profess a simple faith in the accomplishments of Christ on their behalf. That is a fact.


Upon considering of these sad facts, your only response is “LOL”. That is a fact.
[FONT=&quot]
May God have mercy on your soul.[/FONT]

Here is a fact...you create argument without substatinated proof, that deserves LOL...That is a fact.

Now, until you provide something for me to discuss, other than your clear bias toward the Catholic Church, I will continue to "LOL" at your feeble comments...that TOO is fact.
 
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MrMoe

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You...again, are proving my point...you seem to believe (as to most Protestants) that their personal interpretation is correct because they are led by the Holy Spirit...the fact that you bring up Mormons is exactly what I am talking about!!!


You did not read what I wrote properly. I said Mormons have church leaders ordained by God from which the holy spirit reveals truth through. Any private interpretation or criticism of the church's interpretation is condemned, same as the Catholic church.

4Witness » Blog Archive » Can we personally interpret Scripture? – 2 Peter 1:20

There is no personal interpretation in Mormonism.

So you believe you, Mr Moe, are the keeper of the truth because you were led by the spirit...
So do your church leaders.

Psssssttttt...so does every protestant.

Not all protestants as I have just shown you.

Yes, man oh man, did you show me...LOL, you showed me that (as you are doing again) reason does not matter to you, proof does not matter to you...you proved that you horang someone until they throw in the towel...the same thing happened to me when talking to JW's, at the point where they continue to repeat the same thing (see below) over and again...my patience wears thin...ala, your link.

There would be no need to "horang" you if you gave a straight answer and stopped dodging the questions as demonstrated below. Also You're constant resorting to sarcasm is evidence of a weak argument. You did not provide evidence for you claim of what Mary said. Instead you've chose to ignore my request for proof. If you have an answers then give it. Ignoring only suggests to me that you haven't got an answer.

Must be a pretty remote location to not have a Catholic Church close enough...

yes

What of it?

You asked for context. There it is.

How can Satan's ministers transform into ministers of righteousness?

That was not my question. I'll try and make it more clear:
In light of the context of the history of 1 Corinthians you asked for and I just gave you, does it change anything about what is said in 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 regarding satan and his ministers?

I don't care how Satan's ministers transform into ministers of righteousness. It already tells us he can, that's all I need to know.

Why do you think?

I'm asking you. please don't dodge the question, I don't enjoy horanging people.
 
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Albion

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If the magisterium is as fallible as you believe it is, then how can you be sure that your Bible has God for its author? Did a little birdie tell you so?
It certainly isn't because some bishop in Burma or South Africa is assumed (but not known) to agree with every other bishop in the world on some doctrinal point. To claim that every one of them does agree is not only unscriptural and a presumption, but demonstrably untrue as well. That there might be infallibility involved is nothing but a claim.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Originally Posted by marvin knox
The official stance of your organization is to pronounce a curse on anyone who professes simple faith in the sufficiency of Christ’s accomplishments at Calvary and who will not subscribe to and participate in the dogma of Rome. That is a fact.

Thousands of believers have died screaming on a burning stake while their family watched and cried and your priests held up wooden crosses and chanted Latin phrases. Their only crime was to translate the Bible into their own language or profess a simple faith in the accomplishments of Christ on their behalf. That is a fact.
Here is a fact...you create argument without substatinated proof, that deserves LOL...That is a fact.

Now, until you provide something for me to discuss, other than your clear bias toward the Catholic Church, I will continue to "LOL" at your feeble comments...that TOO is fact.
Regarding the first paragraph I wrote - The Council of Trent documents are available for anyone to look at.

Every Pope since the time of their determination has sanctioned the findings and curses of Trent.

The determinations of Vatican I and Vatican II are in print. Their official sanction of all the curses pronounce by the Council of Trent is a matter of record.

If you are waiting for me to reproduce these documents here in the forum you are in for a long wait.

Regarding my second statement. These atrocities are a matter of historical record. They were born witness to by thousands in and out of the Catholic church.

The fact of these atrocities has been acknowledged by Pope John Paul among most other modern Catholic leaders as well as the Popes in power at the time of the atrocities. Take it up with them.

Are you also a 911 "truther" and a Holocaust denier?

Regarding my bias toward the Catholic church. You can bet your life on it.
 
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Rhamiel

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this thread is fun :)

it is good to know that if I disagree with the theology of some group, I can just ignore everything they have to say

like how people are saying that Marian apperitions can not be real because God would not encourage Catholics to be better Catholics

so now whenever a Protestant talks about how they felt the grace of Christ working inside them, I can just assume it was fake and Christ was not really doing that....

(note, this is sarcasm, I am just pointing out that if Catholics did speak like that, you all would be hooting a howling with rightous indignation, wailing about how dare we judge you and all that jazz)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Albion
Probably because the canon of Scripture does NOT lend credence to the Roman Catholic Church and its theory about its magisterium being infallible. Simple. :)
If the magisterium is as fallible as you believe it is, then how can you be sure that your Bible has God for its author? Did a little birdie tell you so? :confused:

And don't tell me that the Scriptures speak for themselves. The Didache can just as well attest to itself by its contents.

PAX
:angel:
Sounds like the makings of another thread :angel:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483551/
The Authority of the Church: Word and Magisterium

The Church's authority has two pillars: The Word of God and the Magisterium of the Church. These two pillars are best represented in Jesus Christ, the living Word incarnate, and in the Virgin Mary, a figure of the Church as Jesus' Mother, who stand on either side of the Ark, like the pillars in Saint Bosco's dream.

The Word of God is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. In Scripture and in Tradition, God speaks to us; He tells us in Scripture that Jesus was born of a virgin in Nazareth and He tells us in Tradition that Mary was assumed into Heaven. Scripture and Tradition both speak the same word of God, because, there is but one God and one Word and because Scripture is from Tradition just as Jewish Scripture is from Jewish Tradition. This Word of God is so called because it is the sacred words which proceed from the sacred mouth of God, spoken by the living Word, centered on the same living Word, fulfilled by the same living Word, and is a unified word of instruction for us.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Bishops of the Church, who, by their office, are teachers, as well as sanctifiers and governors, of the Church. The Church serves the Word of God: Her Magisterium serves the Word of God: She does not make doctrine but keeps, guards, gives, and preaches the doctrines of Jesus Christ, which are found in the Word of God. The Bishops, entrusted with the Word, live and preach it according to the episcopal office, and so they, our teachers, teach us the Catholic Faith. The Deposit of the Faith, the Faith, is the doctrines of Jesus found in the Word, so if we nourish ourselves on the Word, we will better know, and thus live by, the Faith, and if we do this we will also be nourished by Christ Himself in the Eucharist, for a Christian receives Him in Holy Communion, and since the Magisterium serves the Word and the Bishops and their co-operators the priests give us the Eucharist we will better know the unity of Magisterium and Word, Church and Christ, for these things are all one.

Because the Church is our teacher, as our mother, she has teaching authority, which I have just described, and because she has teaching authority she has the duty and the right to teach the Catholic Faith by her beliefs, her sacraments, her life, her prayers: Just as Mary teaches us good example, so the Church by her self - beliefs, sacraments, life and prayer -teaches us good example. Ergo, the Church, in virtue of her authority, has the duty and right to live by the Faith, to administer the sacraments, to live a Christian life, to pray and perform those rites which she has, such as exorcism, and in this way the Church discerns spirits, speaks on morals, ordains men: In short, she follows Jesus, she is herself, she enjoys the authority of God as a Divine Institution after the Divine Person, the same Jesus whom she follows, to whom all authority has been given by the Father.

Hence, we say it is by the authority of the Church that we believe the gospels, for apart from the Word and Magisterium, the gospels would not be believed, let alone been written, for they were written by the Church, by her first Bishops the Apostles, and they were believed by the Church as Scripture, and they were included in Scripture, and Scripture is a part of the Word of God, which in turn is a part of the Church's teaching authority. The unity of Church and Christ, Word and Magisterium is made clear in this way: The Church is the Body of Christ. His authority is hers, so whatever is in the Word is from Him and whatever the Bishops teach is from Him. Yet, we know, as the Word attests, that there are false shepherds and wolves who prowl the Church, not as necessary evils but as weeds among wheat, and we know that if they do not teach rightly, they do not teach truthfully, and so they ought to be corrected and prayed for, to the glory of Jesus. The Lord can transform weeds into wheat.

Because we believe the gospels by the Church's authority, some might claim we are fallacious, as if the Church lives by circular logic. Yet we do not believe that the gospels are from the Church, though written by her, for they are from Jesus, just as they are about Jesus, and He is the One from whom the Church receives her authority: So it is not a matter of "We believe this because the Church says this because we believe it" but "We believe this because the Church says this because Jesus says this". If not for God, Jesus would not be the Christ; if not for Jesus, the Church would not be the Divine Institution; if not for the Church, the work of Jesus would not be continued. Yet some only hold Jesus' miracles and Divinity as mere human beliefs, not facts, and so they accuse us of circular reasoning in saying the Church is from Jesus, for to them the Church recreated Jesus to suit and support her power, as if to say, "We believe this and that, so why not believe Jesus is God too for our authority" or "We need a source of authority, so let us make it Jesus". But for us who believe in God and His Messiah, we know that such thinking is fallacious.
 
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Marvin Knox

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this thread is fun :)
it is good to know that if I disagree with the theology of some group, I can just ignore everything they have to say
I'm glad people are having fun. But I also hope we all realize that these discussions are deadly serious as well.

I'm not sure what you meant by ignoring every one with whom we disagree. But I for one am absolutely not doing that. I originally simply threw my opinion into the mix concerning what people thought of the apperitions. But since people have a lot to say about what I said - I am answering every post directed to me very directly and openly.
people are saying that Marian apperitions can not be real because God would not encourage Catholics to be better Catholics
I hope the person you refer to isn't me. I have never said that they cannot be real. What I have said is that it seems highly unlikely to me as a Protestant that God would sanction these appearances.
so now whenever a Protestant talks about how they felt the grace of Christ working inside them, I can just assume it was fake and Christ was not really doing that....
Again - I hope you are not referring to my assumptions. I have never accused anyone of faking anything. I listed what I considered to be 3 main possibilities (among which was people faking them).

We are not talking about Catholic's or Protestant's feelings about grace working through them. We are not talking about personal feelings or interactions with the Holy Spirit.

We are talking about public appearances of an entity who identifies itself as the Virgin Mary. We are talking about appearances by this entity which have been officially recognized in many cases by the Catholic church. We are talking about thousands of Christians who have a devotion to this entity that rivals and in many cases exceeds their zeal for our Lord Himself. We are talking about an entity who establishes itself as an intercessor between our selves and the Lord.

Again, far from ignoring these visions and the differing opinions of others, I am spending a great deal of time interacting with my fellow Christians concerning them. No Spirit led Christian could ignore something this serious.

I have spent much of my life considering the views of others from other religious backgrounds. That includes those from Catholicism as well as many religions including Islam.

Obviously for anyone here to consider my beliefs would require revisiting the Reformation principles. My hope would be that many would see the light as the reformers saw it. I'm not so foolish as to believe that many would. But - if one wants to consider my views on the supposed appearances of Mary (as I have considered others) - a Scripture based Reformation study is definitely in order.

I personally hope that the tent of doctrine is so large that we will all find our way to Heaven whether we be Catholic or Protestant. Time will tell I suppose.

(I, myself, don't plan on spending a couple of thousand years in purgatory before I find out though.):)
 
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DarylFawcett

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MOD HAT ON!!!!!

This is a notice to focus your posts on the thread topic and not just argue over the thread topic and to also stay on topic.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!
 
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concretecamper

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this thread is fun :)

it is good to know that if I disagree with the theology of some group, I can just ignore everything they have to say

like how people are saying that Marian apperitions can not be real because God would not encourage Catholics to be better Catholics

so now whenever a Protestant talks about how they felt the grace of Christ working inside them, I can just assume it was fake and Christ was not really doing that....

(note, this is sarcasm, I am just pointing out that if Catholics did speak like that, you all would be hooting a howling with rightous indignation, wailing about how dare we judge you and all that jazz)

I am reading a book right now on the role of Mary in the life of a priest and came across this quote and it is rather appropriate given the current path this thread has been taken down.

"The great enemy of the virtue of obedience is grumbling. Grumbling is the compensation which self love resorts to in its powerlessness in the face of authority. It is a compensation which is often unworthy"
 
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justinangel

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We are talking about thousands of Christians who have a devotion to this entity that rivals and in many cases exceeds their zeal for our Lord Himself.

How would you know that? Did Jesus appear to you to warn us? :confused:

We are talking about an entity who establishes itself as an intercessor between our selves and the Lord.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
Revelation 1, 6

PAX
:angel:




 
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Albion

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Sounds like the makings of another thread :angel:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483551/
The Authority of the Church: Word and Magisterium

It's true. We can't agree to these spook stories just because some denomination--any denomination--says to. And as for the
"Word and Mageiterium," the Word doesn't say anything about these particular events and the Magesterium is just a concept without any real authority.
 
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justinangel

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It certainly isn't because some bishop in Burma or South Africa is assumed (but not known) to agree with every other bishop in the world on some doctrinal point. To claim that every one of them does agree is not only unscriptural and a presumption, but demonstrably untrue as well. That there might be infallibility involved is nothing but a claim.

Then we'll never know for sure with the certainty of faith whether the quadriform gospels have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, will we?

PAX
 
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Albion

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Then we'll never know for sure with the certainty of faith whether the quadriform gospels have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, will we?
You seem awfully anxious to change the subject. Why not address the problem of knowing what the Magisterium says and doesn't say, how we'd know, and where the idea comes from that if there did happen to be uniformity that this somehow makes their opinion infallible?
 
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