Mar 22: they are at it again

eclipsenow said:

Maybe, but claiming 'the Holy Spirit makes it true to me' is not an excuse for poor biblical scholarship.

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No one claimed that, eclipsenow.

Jesus said:

Jhn 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Everything can be tested by Scripture.

Bethwhite said:

The point is that believers are reaching the same conclusion even though we're coming at it from different angles/points of view.

We'll know in a few days if this is the year or not.

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So you have some correlation with Easter/Passover?
Sorry, but there simply are no verses of Scripture that indicate when the Lord might return. We are even discouraged from trying.

1. WE ARE TOLD WE WILL NOT KNOW WHEN THE LORD WILL RETURN, SO WE SHOULD PATIENTLY STAY TRUSTING IN THE LORD FOR OUR DAY OF SALVATION.

Matthew 24 says:
"36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not trust in the Lord then:
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This is salvation or damnation stuff, not a bit of knowledge about a timetable).

Luke 12:40
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
It does NOT say "You must know in advance so that you can be ready." It says "Be ready BECAUSE you will not know!"


Revelation 3:3
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
(Remember the gospel and hold it fast and repent!!! Stay Christian, or you might get caught off guard! Becoming lazy and slack is 'falling asleep' right here. The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message):
Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
(It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian. How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in this very book that Jesus will come like a thief!)

2. BIBLE SHOWS PEOPLE 'GUESSING' WRONGLY
Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up!
2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned. They messed it up!

3. 'FUTURE KNOWLEDGE' VERSES DO NOT STACK UP!
Some futurists argue that certain verses mean we must know. They point to verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
This verse is *not* saying Christians should know ahead of the event: that would clearly contradict all the verses we saw above. Instead it says we should not be *unprepared*, not caught in sin and out of faith.

4. WHAT GOOD IS KNOWING A DATE?
Why is knowing the date of the Lord's return even important? What are we meant to DO? How does knowing a date off in the future some time help us? How is trying to calculate that date not a distraction from our core gospel purpose? It doesn't actually help. We live busy lives, and I think our devotional reading could be far better spent in Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology and Apologetics and prayer than wasting endless hours trying to pin down some obscure date. A date many have guessed and published and failed and make a mockery of themselves and their Lord.

Knowing the date might even make some *relax* until then. Would knowing the date off in the future help some to flirt with a worldly lifestyle? To take it easy? In contrast, I can only see warnings against guessing the time of the Lord's return in the bible!

On the other hand, 'predicting' an early date to make your 'ministry' more urgent is the tactic of the JW's. It's ungodly and dishonest.


5. WHAT DOES 1 THESS 5:4 ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE US TO DO?
If one reads this in the context of Thessalonians 5:4 it's all about remaining Christian and staying true to the gospel, not having a vague stab at a date! What futurists have done is pluck the verse out of context to make it sound like a justification for all their pointless prognosticating. The sad irony is that from the context of this verse, Paul would have them concentrate on many other things instead! Like being loving, godly witnesses and staying true to the gospel. Let's read it in context.

1 Thess 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

I wish the futurists would read the whole chapter and not just isolate the one line that, at a superficial level, appears to itch their ears. It doesn't. If this were all about knowing a date it's a very strange way of talking about it. For example, how does someone "belong to" not knowing a date? "We do not belong to the night or to the darkness". Hang on... futurists want to say the fact that we "are not in darkness" is all about knowing a date. But the text seems to imply something more fundamental about who we are. We are not in darkness because we are ignorant of a date, but because we 'belong to it'. That's about our very salvation.

Instead, Paul urges the Thessalonians to live as faithful Christians, and have more faith, hope, and love. We are to remember that we are not going to suffer wrath whenever Christ returns like a thief. We are to live 'in the day' as Christians, not 'in the dark'.

There is also the matter of dead Christians in this passage! How can dead Christians stay awake and prepare themselves for the Lord's return? "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him." Tell me, how much work can the dead put into preparing timetables to be ready for the Lord? The point is obvious. Thessalonians 5 is not saying knowing a date saves us, but knowing a *person*, the Lord Jesus Christ. Do we know when the Lord will return? That's irrelevant! Are we people who trust in the Lord Jesus? There's no more important question! It's all about the gospel!

Let us compare it to bus timetables. This passage is not telling us we have to know exactly when the bus will arrive, but rather that we need to carry our ticket on us all at all times precisely because we will NOT know with this trip! It's about living as faithful, hopeful, loving Christians, rather than argumentative Current Affairs experts busy pushing their own little theory about End Times timetables. I know which I'd rather be, and which will ultimately be more useful for the gospel!

6. HOW DO OTHER PARTS OF THE BIBLE USE NIGHT AND DAY, LIGHT AND DARK?
To finish our look at 1 Thess 5 we can see that the Apostle John also used 'light' and 'dark' to discuss those who knew the Lord and those who didn't.
John 1:
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it"

"9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

1 John:
"5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

1 John 2
"9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them."

Belonging to the light or darkness, night or day is *not* some awkward code-word for knowing a secret date! It's a matter of salvation itself, or character. It's about belonging to God or not belonging to Him, being in the Kingdom of God or being cursed. It's about character, and how we live and what we value. Jesus was clear that even HE did not know when he would return, let alone any of us!!! Which brings me to point 3.

eclipsenow said:

So you have some correlation with Easter/Passover?
Sorry, but there simply are no verses of Scripture that indicate when the Lord might return. We are even discouraged from trying.

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No one knows the timing of Passover because it is based on the sighting of the new moon on Nisan 1. It was either going to be March 11 or 12th this year. This year, Nisan 1 was supposedly March 12. Passover is Nisan 14.

This occurred 5 days before Passover:

John 12:12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
“Hosanna!”

“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”

“Blessed is the king of Israel!”


Here is the newly raptured church, doing the exact same thing:

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

Coincidence? NOPE!

By the way, I just noticed that about John 12 and Rev 7 two days ago.

I know of no one else on planet earth who made that connection.

I asked (seek/knock), God showed me what is written, reminded me of what Jesus said. - just as Jesus said the Holy Spirit would do.

I am not looking for acclaim, for a platform for followers, or to write a book and make a profit.

I made that point to show that the Holy Spirit does indeed teach us, exactly as Jesus said He would.

Just a statement of fact. I want no glory - it's HIS Word, He just showed me what it says and I shared it with you.

All Glory to GOD!!!!!!!

Depending on whether it takes 7 days or 40 days for the first four trumpets of the 7th seal to occur, including the head wound and it's healing is whether or not it will occur this year. A year like this one only comes around once every 11 years.

So, what do you think? After the devil is cast down to the earth, he sends an army against Israel at the time of the 6th seal that is destroyed (head wound - along with an actual man, apparently) and there are all kinds of celestial events before the beast is assigned a "mouth" for 42 months.

There's stars falling, earthquake, sun and moon turned dark so that people hide in caves.
There's hail, fire and blood cast upon the earth so that 1/3 of the trees and all the grass is burned up.
There's a blazing mountain into the sea so that 1/3 of water creatures and ships are destroyed.
There's a torch-like star into the rivers so that the waters turn bitter.
There's something happened to the sun, moon and stars so that 1/3 of the light is gone.

So, does all of that take a week or 40 days?

If all of that only takes a week, it won't happen this year. If it takes 40 days, it could definitely happen this year.

Bethwhite said:

No one knows the timing of Passover because it is based on the sighting of the new moon on Nisan 1. It was either going to be March 11 or 12th this year. This year, Nisan 1 was supposedly March 12. Passover is Nisan 14.

This occurred 5 days before Passover:

John 12:12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
“Hosanna!”

“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”

“Blessed is the king of Israel!”


Here is the newly raptured church, doing the exact same thing:

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

Coincidence? NOPE!

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What on earth do you think you have proved? There is no 'rapture' in Revelation 7. Sorry, but it ain't there. Yes, this is the church in eternity, safely before our God. Yet it's answering a different question: not when we're going to be before God, but how. In Rev 6:17 we are asked who can stand before the day of Judgement? There's all manner of awful language and images describing the Judgement Day of the Lord.

This bit describes something about the Judgement Day of God. As the sixth seal opens, we see Isa 34:4; Joel 2:30-31; Hag 2:6-7, Mark 13:24-27, Matthew 24:27-31. This is Judgement Day. But so is Rev 17, 19, and 20. So what is Revelation? A timeline of the future? No! It's a sermon waltzing around and around the same themes of the Judgement Day of God, the salvation and safety of His Kingdom, the glory of the Lord and what he achieved in his gospel triumph, and the inevitability and certainty of his victory over evil.

Indeed 7:3 says "Do not harm the earth or the sea of the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads." But, as John Richardson writes in his excellent short commentary Revelation Unwrapped,

"But we would expect that the events of 6:12-14 would have already done considerable damage to the land, sea, and trees! This is a fundamental indication that the events which follow one another in the NARRATIVE of Revelation do not always follow one another in TIME. In fact, the sealing of the servants of God must have taken place BEFORE the sequence beginning in 6:1. It is what we would call a "flash-back". The verb for "sealing" is from the same root as the noun for the "seals" in 5:1 etc. The action being referred to is the setting aside of God's elect to keep them secure in the Day of Judgement. These people have been sealed in Christ, not merely before the world was destroyed, but before it began. (cf 17:8; Eph 1:4,13; Matt 25:31 - noting the parallel reference to the "four winds").


(Get 'Revelation Unwrapped' for $6 at Book Depository with free worldwide delivery.
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429 )

Chapter 7 then follows with a description of the numerical completeness of God's people (144 thousand means the vast and complete number of God's people, the 12 tribes times the 12 Apostles times 1000). That's the *theologically symbolic* number of God's people, but to human observers the number is too many to count.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

One number was symbolic: the other perspective on the same group of people gives us the fulfilment of God's promises in Gen 15:5.

"5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

This passage is telling us that God always keeps his promises, God always acts to seal and saves his people, his actions mean judgement on his enemies, and then it tells us that the final account in heaven will be the *complete* number of God's people from both the Old and New Covenants (144 thousand), and that the actual number will be so vast that it fulfils God's over-abundant promises to Abram. This passage is overflowing with the goodness and graciousness of our God.

To reduce it to a timetable of the Last Days is not just missing the point, it's robbing the church of a beautiful vision of God's goodness and faithfulness to us today as we go through various trials and troubles.

eclipsenow said:

What on earth do you think you have proved? There is no 'rapture' in Revelation 7. Sorry, but it ain't there. Yes, this is the church in eternity, safely before our God. Yet it's answering a different question: not when we're going to be before God, but how.

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I could show you but you appear to trust the doctrines of men over Scripture based on your quoting of various commentaries.

No, Rev 7 is definitely describing "when" and it's definitely describing the newly raptured church.

Just look at the description of the multitude.

1. Innumerable
2. From all nations, languages, etc.
3. Standing before God and Jesus in heaven
4. Wearing white robes (given in the 5th seal)
5. Palm branches in hand (John 12:12)
6. Praising God for salvation - that one thing alone identifies them as immortal/raptured.
7. Come out of great tribulation (that Jesus said began with the desolation of Israel and is cut short for the ELECT prior to wrath at the 6th seal)
8. Washed in the blood of the Lamb - how long have we been washing in the blood of the Lamb? (Exodus 19:10-20)
9. Dwelling in heaven with God.

Revelation 7 describes the "elect" for whom the great tribulation is cut short prior to wrath that we are not appointed to suffer (but receive salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thess 5). 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth, the church is gathered to heaven.

Ask God about it. He'll tell you.

Bethwhite said:

I could show you but you appear to trust the doctrines of men over Scripture based on your quoting of various commentaries.

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That is the single most false and trite statement on this forum, I can't think of anything that's ever been said that is misused more often than that.

Bethwhite said:

The only thing I'm unsure about is the year because it is based on when the world said it occurred: 486-487BC. There are disagreements among historians on the timing of it so I don't know which one is accurate.

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And supposing you're wrong about that too? Suppsing we're still here in 5 years time, having this same debate?

Bethwhite said:

But, Daniel 12 is correct.

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Yes, but your interpretation, and application, of it may not be.

Bethwhite said:

I could show you but you appear to trust the doctrines of men over Scripture based on your quoting of various commentaries.

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Guess where their ideas come from? Reading the bible.
Guess where your ideas come from? Reading the bible.
It's just they do it understanding the languages and cultures and histories involved. You, apparently, do not. So I will trust in the 'doctrines of men' when they come from an educated view of the bible over the simplistic, 'read what you want' ideas of one woman any day.

I've NEVER encountered the idea that Rev 7 gives us a timetable that overturns all the 'don't guess' verses I listed above. By the way, thanks for dealing with each and every one of those 'don't guess' verses so thoroughly. I took about 40 minutes reading and praying and thinking through my reply to YOUR verses, you just IGNORED my verses.

This is not a conversation, it's a patronising lecture. If you wish me to reply to the verses you constantly throw at me to chase around, why don't you reply to these for once? Actually engage in the conversation for once? It would be a refreshing change. Here's your homework!

Analyse each of the following verses and explain why they do NOT say what they clearly DO say: we will not know when he's coming back.

1. WE ARE TOLD WE WILL NOT KNOW WHEN THE LORD WILL RETURN, SO WE SHOULD PATIENTLY STAY TRUSTING IN THE LORD FOR OUR DAY OF SALVATION.

Matthew 24 says:
"36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not trust in the Lord then:
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This is salvation or damnation stuff, not a bit of knowledge about a timetable).

Luke 12:40
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
It does NOT say "You must know in advance so that you can be ready." It says "Be ready BECAUSE you will not know!"


Revelation 3:3
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
(Remember the gospel and hold it fast and repent!!! Stay Christian, or you might get caught off guard! Becoming lazy and slack is 'falling asleep' right here. The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message):
Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
(It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian. How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in this very book that Jesus will come like a thief!)

2. BIBLE SHOWS PEOPLE 'GUESSING' WRONGLY
Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up!
2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned. They messed it up!

3. 'FUTURE KNOWLEDGE' VERSES DO NOT STACK UP!
Some futurists argue that certain verses mean we must know. They point to verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
This verse is *not* saying Christians should know ahead of the event: that would clearly contradict all the verses we saw above. Instead it says we should not be *unprepared*, not caught in sin and out of faith.

4. WHAT GOOD IS KNOWING A DATE?
Why is knowing the date of the Lord's return even important? What are we meant to DO? How does knowing a date off in the future some time help us? How is trying to calculate that date not a distraction from our core gospel purpose? It doesn't actually help. We live busy lives, and I think our devotional reading could be far better spent in Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology and Apologetics and prayer than wasting endless hours trying to pin down some obscure date. A date many have guessed and published and failed and make a mockery of themselves and their Lord.

Knowing the date might even make some *relax* until then. Would knowing the date off in the future help some to flirt with a worldly lifestyle? To take it easy? In contrast, I can only see warnings against guessing the time of the Lord's return in the bible!

On the other hand, 'predicting' an early date to make your 'ministry' more urgent is the tactic of the JW's. It's ungodly and dishonest.


5. WHAT DOES 1 THESS 5:4 ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE US TO DO?
If one reads this in the context of Thessalonians 5:4 it's all about remaining Christian and staying true to the gospel, not having a vague stab at a date! What futurists have done is pluck the verse out of context to make it sound like a justification for all their pointless prognosticating. The sad irony is that from the context of this verse, Paul would have them concentrate on many other things instead! Like being loving, godly witnesses and staying true to the gospel. Let's read it in context.

1 Thess 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

I wish the futurists would read the whole chapter and not just isolate the one line that, at a superficial level, appears to itch their ears. It doesn't. If this were all about knowing a date it's a very strange way of talking about it. For example, how does someone "belong to" not knowing a date? "We do not belong to the night or to the darkness". Hang on... futurists want to say the fact that we "are not in darkness" is all about knowing a date. But the text seems to imply something more fundamental about who we are. We are not in darkness because we are ignorant of a date, but because we 'belong to it'. That's about our very salvation.

Instead, Paul urges the Thessalonians to live as faithful Christians, and have more faith, hope, and love. We are to remember that we are not going to suffer wrath whenever Christ returns like a thief. We are to live 'in the day' as Christians, not 'in the dark'.

There is also the matter of dead Christians in this passage! How can dead Christians stay awake and prepare themselves for the Lord's return? "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him." Tell me, how much work can the dead put into preparing timetables to be ready for the Lord? The point is obvious. Thessalonians 5 is not saying knowing a date saves us, but knowing a *person*, the Lord Jesus Christ. Do we know when the Lord will return? That's irrelevant! Are we people who trust in the Lord Jesus? There's no more important question! It's all about the gospel!

Let us compare it to bus timetables. This passage is not telling us we have to know exactly when the bus will arrive, but rather that we need to carry our ticket on us all at all times precisely because we will NOT know with this trip! It's about living as faithful, hopeful, loving Christians, rather than argumentative Current Affairs experts busy pushing their own little theory about End Times timetables. I know which I'd rather be, and which will ultimately be more useful for the gospel!

6. HOW DO OTHER PARTS OF THE BIBLE USE NIGHT AND DAY, LIGHT AND DARK?
To finish our look at 1 Thess 5 we can see that the Apostle John also used 'light' and 'dark' to discuss those who knew the Lord and those who didn't.
John 1:
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it"

"9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

1 John:
"5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

1 John 2
"9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them."

Belonging to the light or darkness, night or day is *not* some awkward code-word for knowing a secret date! It's a matter of salvation itself, or character. It's about belonging to God or not belonging to Him, being in the Kingdom of God or being cursed. It's about character, and how we live and what we value. Jesus was clear that even HE did not know when he would return, let alone any of us!!! Which brings me to point 3.

Bethwhite said:

I could show you but you appear to trust the doctrines of men over Scripture based on your quoting of various commentaries.

No, Rev 7 is definitely describing "when" and it's definitely describing the newly raptured church.

Click to expand...

The word raptured is NOT used in the passage.
How they got there is NOT described in the passage.
= You're just reading what you want INTO the passage.

Just look at the description of the multitude.

1. Innumerable
2. From all nations, languages, etc.
3. Standing before God and Jesus in heaven
4. Wearing white robes (given in the 5th seal)
5. Palm branches in hand (John 12:12)
6. Praising God for salvation - that one thing alone identifies them as immortal/raptured.

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The white robes, standing before God, salvation, etc, all apply to me right now. Did you know that? Eph 2: I'm already seated in heaven! The moment we become Christians we get all this, but, admittedly, in 'eschatological tension'. Now and not yet. We're there, already citizens of heaven, but we're still on the quest, still in the desert. Now, but not yet.

7. Come out of great tribulation (that Jesus said began with the desolation of Israel and is cut short for the ELECT prior to wrath at the 6th seal)

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Nice theory, but wrong. As I've already shown in the example above, Revelation is NOT a timetable but a waltz around many different themes.

8. Washed in the blood of the Lamb - how long have we been washing in the blood of the Lamb? (Exodus 19:10-20)

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Irrelevant. Not sure how this supports your argument?

9. Dwelling in heaven with God.

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Yes, they are safe with God, but as I said that we already are the moment we are saved. But yes, I concede that John shows us a glimpse of the safety of the Saints in Heaven, I was just pointing out the implications of "eschatological Tension" so that you wouldn't argue too strongly for the Rapture because there is no Rapture, only Judgement Day as the one event!

Revelation 7 describes the "elect" for whom the great tribulation is cut short prior to wrath that we are not appointed to suffer (but receive salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thess 5). 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth, the church is gathered to heaven.

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That's RIDICULOUS! What, you read the 144,000 LITERALLY!? So only 144,000 Jewish virgin men get to be 'sealed' on earth? Wow, that's just so weird. Good luck with pushing those views.

Your problem appears to be a lack of familiarity with apocalyptic writing. You read these verses LITERALLY! That's like reading Jane Austen to build a 747, or a toaster manual to repair a high-end graphic designer's Macintosh Computer. Or, more to the point, it's like reading Shakespeare as a future timetable. It's just wrong. Go back and read Revelation 1, where John says he is writing to his generation, for the time is near, and it is soon, and he shares in their persecutions and tribulations! The 'great tribulation' had already started. It's called the Last Days, and we've been in them since Acts 2 and Hebrews 1!

Bethwhite said:

By the way, I just noticed that about John 12 and Rev 7 two days ago.

I know of no one else on planet earth who made that connection.

I asked (seek/knock), God showed me what is written, reminded me of what Jesus said. - just as Jesus said the Holy Spirit would do.

I am not looking for acclaim, for a platform for followers, or to write a book and make a profit.

I made that point to show that the Holy Spirit does indeed teach us, exactly as Jesus said He would.

Just a statement of fact. I want no glory - it's HIS Word, He just showed me what it says and I shared it with you.

All Glory to GOD!!!!!!!

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I wouldn't trust your highly subjective, emotively driven state of mind (not the Holy Spirit) given that your existing set of presuppositions about Revelation mean that any question you ask is going to get the wrong answer, just from your starting assumptions! Please don't embarrass yourself by saying this junk is from the Holy Spirit, or that God told you. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells me EVERYTHING I need to know comes from the scriptures, not from BethWhite's 'gut'.

eclipsenow said:

Hi all: only 7 days to go before we can wake up and ask "What Abomination that causes desolation!?"

If they try to explain it as some pathetic little meeting between Obama and someone in the Middle East, but nothing substantive has actually changed for Christian believers, well, I guess they'll just be showing themselves to be Jehovah's Witnesses rewriting the 1914 event all over again, hey?

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According to the 2-hour video that Marantha has been pushing (say, where has she gone anyway?), three things are supposed to happen on 3/23:
1. The AoD (but the video isn't clear about what that is).
2. There will be a great flood in Israel.
3. There will be a great exodus from Israel.

There won't be any guesswork or interpretation of events needed. I'm sure curious to see if any of the proponents of this latest time-setting venture will stick around until the 24th to answer for their obviously misguided misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

eclipsenow said:

What on earth do you think you have proved? There is no 'rapture' in Revelation 7. Sorry, but it ain't there. Yes, this is the church in eternity, safely before our God. Yet it's answering a different question: not when we're going to be before God, but how. In Rev 6:17 we are asked who can stand before the day of Judgement? There's all manner of awful language and images describing the Judgement Day of the Lord.

This bit describes something about the Judgement Day of God. As the sixth seal opens, we see Isa 34:4; Joel 2:30-31; Hag 2:6-7, Mark 13:24-27, Matthew 24:27-31. This is Judgement Day. But so is Rev 17, 19, and 20. So what is Revelation? A timeline of the future? No! It's a sermon waltzing around and around the same themes of the Judgement Day of God, the salvation and safety of His Kingdom, the glory of the Lord and what he achieved in his gospel triumph, and the inevitability and certainty of his victory over evil.

Indeed 7:3 says "Do not harm the earth or the sea of the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads." But, as John Richardson writes in his excellent short commentary Revelation Unwrapped,

"But we would expect that the events of 6:12-14 would have already done considerable damage to the land, sea, and trees! This is a fundamental indication that the events which follow one another in the NARRATIVE of Revelation do not always follow one another in TIME. In fact, the sealing of the servants of God must have taken place BEFORE the sequence beginning in 6:1. It is what we would call a "flash-back". The verb for "sealing" is from the same root as the noun for the "seals" in 5:1 etc. The action being referred to is the setting aside of God's elect to keep them secure in the Day of Judgement. These people have been sealed in Christ, not merely before the world was destroyed, but before it began. (cf 17:8; Eph 1:4,13; Matt 25:31 - noting the parallel reference to the "four winds").


(Get 'Revelation Unwrapped' for $6 at Book Depository with free worldwide delivery.
Revelation Unwrapped: Commentary on Revelation : Paperback : John Richardson : 9780952489429 )

Chapter 7 then follows with a description of the numerical completeness of God's people (144 thousand means the vast and complete number of God's people, the 12 tribes times the 12 Apostles times 1000). That's the *theologically symbolic* number of God's people, but to human observers the number is too many to count.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

One number was symbolic: the other perspective on the same group of people gives us the fulfilment of God's promises in Gen 15:5.

"5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

This passage is telling us that God always keeps his promises, God always acts to seal and saves his people, his actions mean judgement on his enemies, and then it tells us that the final account in heaven will be the *complete* number of God's people from both the Old and New Covenants (144 thousand), and that the actual number will be so vast that it fulfils God's over-abundant promises to Abram. This passage is overflowing with the goodness and graciousness of our God.

To reduce it to a timetable of the Last Days is not just missing the point, it's robbing the church of a beautiful vision of God's goodness and faithfulness to us today as we go through various trials and troubles.

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While I wouldn't recommend "Revelation Unwrapped", it's not any more wrong than the 3/22-3/23 craze that's getting so much air time in the forum right now. But that's obviously a different topic.

dysert said:

There won't be any guesswork or interpretation of events needed. I'm sure curious to see if any of the proponents of this latest time-setting venture will stick around until the 24th to answer for their obviously misguided misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

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We should take bets, my money's on: no, they won't.

dysert said:

According to the 2-hour video that Marantha has been pushing (say, where has she gone anyway?), three things are supposed to happen on 3/23:
1. The AoD (but the video isn't clear about what that is).
2. There will be a great flood in Israel.
3. There will be a great exodus from Israel.

There won't be any guesswork or interpretation of events needed. I'm sure curious to see if any of the proponents of this latest time-setting venture will stick around until the 24th to answer for their obviously misguided misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

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Marantha is right here. I am excited, preparing myself and those around me for this incredible time. I hope you all would do the same.

Come Lord Jesus
Marantha

Marantha said:

Marantha is right here. I am excited, preparing myself and those around me for this incredible time. I hope you all would do the same.

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I hope that we are all ready for whenever we may meet with God - whether it be tonight, in death, next month, or twenty years time.

I just hope that if nothing happens next week, or the week after, or next month, you won't lose your faith and take your eyes off Jesus.

Strong in Him said:

I just hope that if nothing happens next week, or the week after, or next month, you won't lose your faith and take your eyes off Jesus.

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Thank you for your concern; but God willing that would be quite impossible knowing all he has done for me. My life revolves around that fact.

About the 22nd; it will happen. Keep watching. I will continue to be mocked, but it doesn't matter. I love all my real Brothers and Sisters in Christ. My job is to let others know. There is a buzz here now about the 22nd. Some mock, some agree, some are not sure.... but the time is known. That will spread to many, many more outside this forum so that all the more are alerted. Most of the work I demonstrate here is NOT my own. I am simply a man who is watching with GREAT excitement. The blessing I have is a passion to alert others to the truth.

They can do with that information what they will.

All Glory be to God
Marantha