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Many questions

James_Lai

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I see His hand in NATURE. I live in the Country and work outside alot. Everywhere I look, I see how much He loves us. He could have given us a BLACK & WHITE world...but instead, He made it BEAUTIFUL with COLOR.

I see His hand in PROVIDENCE. He brought my husband and I together from different parts of the Country and complete opposite backgrounds, and has blessed our marriage tremendously.

I see His hand in the WONDERS of the human body. If evolution were true, there wouldn't be anymore monkeys, they would have all become humans by now. But thankfully, evolution is not true...and the Biblical account of Creation explains how we all came into existence. We can choose to believe the Creation story or cling to the evolution story (which actually takes more faith to believe because there is so much evidence for Creation.)

I see His hand in all the Bible stories...leading us to apply the lessons in these stories to our everyday lives, causing us to grow closer to Jesus everyday.

Thank you. You listed mostly philosophical, worldview postulates. They are not necessarily Christian God postulates. You can say it’s nature, or physical laws, or any other deity or even multiple deities responsible behind the scenes.

About evolution, it’s not that apes must disappear for humans to evolve from them. The idea is that species branch out, so both humans and modern apes share a common ancestor. Apes evolve as well, but in a different way.
 
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James_Lai

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These are standard views of Evangelicals. For the rest of Christians, the NT is mostly literal (except Jude and Revelation) but the OT is to be understood figuratively, explained according to the NT, and taking into consideration the views of surrounding cultures and progressive development in philosophy and revelation.


If God chooses to speak with an audible voice, this is his privilege. Evangelical preachers frequently claim on TV that He speaks to them. Almost all my friends are Evangelicals. They are really sincere people but I don't know anyone in real life who experienced this. Perhaps other participants in this thread can shed light on the issue.


I hope that my thoughts conform to his thoughts.

In a previous message, I suggested certain authors. The other think that may be useful is Catholic retreats, they can be wonderful. Meanwhile, please do not get discouraged.

No matter what churches, their leaders or parishioners teach, if we look in the Bible, there’s different methods Gad can directly ir indirectly speak to people. Even through a donkey. The NT encourages to seek His active force in your life, and it’s manifested strongly and openly, not in a very subtle way. God can transport a person to a different locality, make them speak another human language, save from deadly venom or cause an earthquake to release from jail. I see nothing like this in my life or lives of other believers of any faith.

And yes, my contact has been mostly with evangelical Christians , but also with Catholic and Orthodox.

Even if non-Evangelical have a different claims about the Bible, they do regard it as a divinely inspired book with truth in it and base their faith at least partially on the Bible. So my inability to accept it goes against their teaching as well
 
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James_Lai

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That's as mistaken as it can be! Even if one rejects the principle of "walk by faith and not by sight", logic still disagrees with you, and I'm not even referring here to the cosmological argument, but to the notion that relevance is only according to manifest miracles/'scientific proofs'-i.e.-empirical-evidences. Or do you have some other measure I haven't understood you to go by?

What passages and what church doctrines are you referring to, drawn on "obsolete" passages of the Bible? Give me an example, please.

You say, "If God withdrew Himself from the world in this age, as compared to the past..." yet you have no measure for such an assessment except as demonstrated by [apparently] more miracles et al in the past than the present. He is no more withdrawn now than then —in fact, if anything, he is more 'with us' now than then, to whatever degree hidden or unproven to temporal sight he might be.

How do you assess the OT and NT as irrelevant to today? The notion that God doesn't show himself in the same simple or obvious terms nowadays as he used to (for which notion I still haven't seen proof, since the accounts are few compared to 4000 years, and 2000 years respectively, compared to a short lifetime today and the accounts of (at least) miracles nowadays, discarded for "lack of evidence") has no bearing on whether the accounts, prophecy, progressions, doctrine, wisdom and poetry are obsolete or irrelevant.



Hardly. Cosmology and life can not be used to prove we don't need him in explaining the origin. Neither science nor philosophy can do so. Show me how they prove such a thing!

I learned about the claims about the Bible, but after studying the book, in my view it fails those claims.

I learned about God, and that supposedly He’s active today, but I don’t see any sign of that in my life or in the lives if other people I know.

About Cosmology, I’m not a philosopher, but I read the argument of Occam’s rasor that simplest explanation is best. Absence of God is definitely the simplest and best. What if there are multiple Gods? What if God existed but then disappeared? If we introduce God, then we create infinite possibilities.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I learned about the claims about the Bible, but after studying it, in my view it fails those claims.

I learned about God, and that supposedly he’s active today, but I don’t see any sign of that in my life or in lives if other people I know.

About Cosmology, I’m not a philosopher, but I read the argument of Occam’s rasor that simplest explanation is best. Absence of God is definitely is the simplest and best. What if there are multiple Gods? What if God existed but then disappeared? If we introduce God, then we create infinite possibilities.
Occam's Razor does in fact apply to the notion of 'first cause'. It is by far the simplest answer to existence itself, requiring only the already proven to be pervasive (and trusted by science) principle of cause-and-effect, and answering to the definition, "Omnipotent" (that is to say, that if not omnipotent, then not first cause). While there are many logical implications that result to the notion of "GOD", none of those you suggest in your post here are logical hypotheticals, for or against, the notion of God as First Cause, Omnipotent. They do nothing to promote the notion of absence of God —they are not among your 'infinite possibilities' that First Cause supposedly introduces:

No other 'gods' can also be first cause. (No other uncaused fact or principle can exist, by definition of the one First Cause.)

By "disappeared", I suppose you mean the Deistic, "ceased to exist in any relevant way". Also impossible, as existence itself is the work of First Cause, quite independent of any time sequence. But, good for you, for seeing the notion of deism to be logically incomplete.

But, referring back to Occam's Razor, the notion of 'no God', introduces myriad questions as to how existence IS, to which the most satisfying answer to date seems to be, "I don't care. I don't want to think about that."
 
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James_Lai

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Occam's Razor does in fact apply to the notion of 'first cause'. It is by far the simplest answer to existence itself, requiring only the already proven to be pervasive (and trusted by science) principle of cause-and-effect, and answering to the definition, "Omnipotent" (that is to say, that if not omnipotent, then not first cause). While there are many logical implications that result to the notion of "GOD", none of those you suggest in your post here are logical hypotheticals, for or against, the notion of God as First Cause, Omnipotent. They do nothing to promote the notion of absence of God —they are not among your 'infinite possibilities' that First Cause supposedly introduces:

No other 'gods' can also be first cause. (No other uncaused fact or principle can exist, by definition of the one First Cause.)

By "disappeared", I suppose you mean the Deistic, "ceased to exist in any relevant way". Also impossible, as existence itself is the work of First Cause, quite independent on any time sequence. But, good for you, for seeing the notion of deism to be logically incomplete.

But, referring back to Occam's Razor, the notion of 'no God', introduces myriad questions as to how existence IS, to which the most satisfying answer to date seems to be, "I don't care. I don't want to think about that."

Is our logic unfailing? Is the universe we observe, both macro and micro, true picture of reality? How good are our sensors? What if it’s a simulated illusion? Etc. I look at things from my little world, I don’t try to look at the bigger world. In concrete terms, not in abstract. If God is detectable and wants to be discovered, why does He evade me and many others? From investigation, those who say the’ve discovered Him, seems to me, are in the same darkness, but do a good job of wishful thinking. Then I look at facts of Christianity and I find humans at work, in the Bible, in the church, in lives of believers. No sign of God
 
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The Narrow Way

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Is our logic unfailing? Is the universe we observe, both macro and micro, true picture of reality? How good are our sensors? What if it’s a simulated illusion? Etc. I look at things from my little world, I don’t try to look at the bigger world. In concrete terms, not in generalizations. If God is detectable and wants to be discovered, why does He evade me and many others? From investigation, those who say the’ve discovered Him, seems to me, are in the same darkness, but do a good job of wishful thinking. Then I look at facts of Christianity and I find humans at work, in the Bible, in the church, in lives of believers. No sign of God
James, I'm curious... Something you said made me think you grew up as a Communist. Is that right?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Is our logic unfailing? Is the universe we observe, both macro and micro, true picture of reality? How good are our sensors? What if it’s a simulated illusion? Etc. I look at things from my little world, I don’t try to look at the bigger world. In concrete terms, not in abstract. If God is detectable and wants to be discovered, why does He evade me and many others? From investigation, those who say the’ve discovered Him, seems to me, are in the same darkness, but do a good job of wishful thinking. Then I look at facts of Christianity and I find humans at work, in the Bible, in the church, in lives of believers. No sign of God

You seem to me to be mixing up concrete (objective) with subjective. But, ok.

Logic is unfailing. Our logic, not so much.

Our "sensors" (senses?) are only good for what they do —give us a sense of the reality around us. Our perception is no doubt not conclusive, but good enough to get along for the most part, and good enough for science, which most atheists seem to exalt as the purest form of assessment.

The supposedly 'proven' notion that it is all a simulation is surprisingly promoted by some as a suggestion that God is not real. Yet it necessarily implies a simulator. But, neverminding who the simulator might be, the notion does nothing to undo the logical need for First Cause —it is a bit like suggesting that there may be other universes with other gods, because if so, there is a First Cause over them all, and this universe's god is not him —not God, not First Cause, not Omnipotent.

Your dedication to the concrete, not abstract, while commendable in some sense, doesn't recommend itself to Occam, I think. While it may seem so as regards your success in the small things, it does nothing to answer the notion of First Cause, (unless you go micro —but that's a discussion for another day).

"If God is detectable...", you say. Detectable to whom and what fulfilled parameters would be acceptable as 'detected'? Science certainly depends on cause and effect in all their calculations, so why abandon it now? That in itself should be enough to show first cause. But more to the point, what do YOU demand he do to show you his existence? But, anyhow, on to the last part of your statement: WHY would you assume he wants to be discovered by you? (If we are all as pig-headed as I think we are, I see no reason he would do so except by/for his own purposes —not ours. And that too, is in perfect logical keeping with the notion of first cause.)

I admit to the point that you see no difference between those who "claim to have discovered him" and those who have not. I see little real difference myself, even within myself, except for my reason for continued living, and my confidence and in life, my satisfaction over very little, a drive for other reasons, and a certain joy that holds me securely, resultant of the fact that if First Cause exists, this life is about him. In other words, in spite of the fact that I still have my old problems and failings, my home is no longer here, but I have a higher expectation, and an overwhelming desire for this First Cause I have come to believe in.

It makes more sense to me that there be a First Cause, than that even I should exist —yet, here I am. The apparent fact that I am, besides existing as a mere creature, a moral agent, able to turn one way or the other according to my own will and by an apparent conscience, compared to the larger-than-universe purity of force and will of First Cause, implies GRACE on his part towards me.

Again, what did you expect to see?
 
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Sketcher

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Your examples are great. It would be interesting to see one of them in greater detail, that would show more convincingly or conclusively that it is a spiritual agent in work, and not psychological or any other known physical laws.
My understanding of the spiritual is that it influences the psyche and the physical realm, so it's not really a question of, "is it spiritual or a force of nature?" It's more like, "is the spiritual moving nature at this time?" Science can tell us how something happens, as a chain of events. But it can't give a deep explanation of why certain things happen. Back to the plague of darkness, it could explain the geological processes behind a volcanic explosion and how far the wind could carry the debris, but not why it covered Egypt after Pharaoh had refused to let Moses' people go. So even in the case of a rational and scientific explanation of any event that the Bible credits God with, there was still more behind it than science can explain. And so I keep an open mind to that when evaluating reports of contemporary miracles and providence.

Now, it's possible to over-spiritualize too, and that's not healthy. I'm not about that either.
 
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Prophecy is another proof of the bible. Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies found within the Old Testament.
Granted, the prophecies don't deal with date and time in the sense of specifics, but do establish a signpost in the time stream.

Isaiah was penned approximately 700 years before Jesus and has many prophecies about Jesus. Chapter 53 cannot be misconstrued.
Some of the Psalms were written perhaps 1000 years before Christ and contain quotes from Jesus' mouth.

Psalm 22:1
1My God, my God,

why have You forsaken me?

365 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ & Printable Gospel Tract - Eternal Evangelism
 
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EpicScore

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My understanding of the spiritual is that it influences the psyche and the physical realm, so it's not really a question of, "is it spiritual or a force of nature?" It's more like, "is the spiritual moving nature at this time?" Science can tell us how something happens, as a chain of events. But it can't give a deep explanation of why certain things happen. Back to the plague of darkness, it could explain the geological processes behind a volcanic explosion and how far the wind could carry the debris, but not why it covered Egypt after Pharaoh had refused to let Moses' people go. So even in the case of a rational and scientific explanation of any event that the Bible credits God with, there was still more behind it than science can explain. And so I keep an open mind to that when evaluating reports of contemporary miracles and providence.

Now, it's possible to over-spiritualize too, and that's not healthy. I'm not about that either.

Adding to this post, regarding miracles and supernatural experiences in the Bible, it is important to note that: 1) they are not as common as you might think (many characters in the Bible are more likely to react with skepticism than knowing anticipation when they are given a divine promise, even when it is spoken by God Himself), 2) it's almost never done independently of a human agent (God's appointed servant(s) must say or do something before any supernatural phenomenon happens), and 3) they serve a specific purpose to advance the kingdom of God, and never "just because".

Whether in Moses's story of the Exodus, the wonders worked by the prophets (mostly just Elijah and Elisha, really) and later Jesus and the Apostles, the ability to perform miracles were given to establish their authority as people truly sent by God -- as opposed to the false prophets and teachers -- and that, in light of these gifts, what these people taught and preached are to be given a greater weight than those taught and practiced by their contemporaries. Remember that the people don't have the written Word of God at this point, and the only way people are going to accept a "new" teaching or interpretation of the law is by endowing its teachers with divine abilities to command nature to their will, so to speak, as a sign of God's approval. It is the teachings, not the miracles itself, that is at the heart of these divine interferences.

But, as we read in the Bible, miracles alone don't make faithful disciples of God. The Israelites continually rebel against God even after witnessing what is perhaps the greatest acts of miracles in the Bible; the crowds who were impressed by Jesus's miracles mostly left him when he calls them to a lifetime of obedience, and the Pharisees are more determined to kill him rather than believe when they saw his wondrous works. Herod and many others wanted to see miracles to be impressed/entertained rather than to seek God's will.

God's desire is for His people, who are made in His image, to be shaped to His likeness ("Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" - Matthew 5:38), as we were first created to be. So for anyone holding out to God to perform a miracle, it is good to examine our motives for doing so, and ask ourselves if a witnessing a miracle would draw us closer to God, and make us desire His presence more and more.
 
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Why I asked what is God or who is God, is because it seems in reality if He exists then He’s more like an energy, not a person. I don’t hear His voice and no matter how long or how much I try and initiate communication with Him at my end, it always remains one way transmit only, not a bi-directional duplex communication… Nothing at my receive end… And not for the lack of trying either

The Church is to be God's hands on earth. If you are having trouble feeling the presence of God, seek out a strong body of Christ, ideally a church that will take your cultural differences into account.

That explains alot as to the questions you have regarding the Bible. Communism HATES Christianity. You have been indoctrinated as a child to HATE Christianity, God and the Bible. You are going to have alot of UNLEARNING to do, in order to accept the TRUTH.

Please, James Lai, do not take statements like this to heart, as the exclusive way of Jesus. Worldly governance, communist and capitalist are antithetical to the love of Christianity. Seems like you are very much aware of the communal aspects of Christianity. Hold fast to that. Many western Christians have a difficult time with this due to the extensive individualism that runs rampant through the "faith." Be very careful with advice from American Christians. The church in our country has sadly been polluted with worldly politics.
 
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James_Lai

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You seem to me to be mixing up concrete (objective) with subjective. But, ok.

Logic is unfailing. Our logic, not so much.

Our "sensors" (senses?) are only good for what they do —give us a sense of the reality around us. Our perception is no doubt not conclusive, but good enough to get along for the most part, and good enough for science, which most atheists seem to exalt as the purest form of assessment.

The supposedly 'proven' notion that it is all a simulation is surprisingly promoted by some as a suggestion that God is not real. Yet it necessarily implies a simulator. But, neverminding who the simulator might be, the notion does nothing to undo the logical need for First Cause —it is a bit like suggesting that there may be other universes with other gods, because if so, there is a First Cause over them all, and this universe's god is not him —not God, not First Cause, not Omnipotent.

Your dedication to the concrete, not abstract, while commendable in some sense, doesn't recommend itself to Occam, I think. While it may seem so as regards your success in the small things, it does nothing to answer the notion of First Cause, (unless you go micro —but that's a discussion for another day).

"If God is detectable...", you say. Detectable to whom and what fulfilled parameters would be acceptable as 'detected'? Science certainly depends on cause and effect in all their calculations, so why abandon it now? That in itself should be enough to show first cause. But more to the point, what do YOU demand he do to show you his existence? But, anyhow, on to the last part of your statement: WHY would you assume he wants to be discovered by you? (If we are all as pig-headed as I think we are, I see no reason he would do so except by/for his own purposes —not ours. And that too, is in perfect logical keeping with the notion of first cause.)

I admit to the point that you see no difference between those who "claim to have discovered him" and those who have not. I see little real difference myself, even within myself, except for my reason for continued living, and my confidence and in life, my satisfaction over very little, a drive for other reasons, and a certain joy that holds me securely, resultant of the fact that if First Cause exists, this life is about him. In other words, in spite of the fact that I still have my old problems and failings, my home is no longer here, but I have a higher expectation, and an overwhelming desire for this First Cause I have come to believe in.

It makes more sense to me that there be a First Cause, than that even I should exist —yet, here I am. The apparent fact that I am, besides existing as a mere creature, a moral agent, able to turn one way or the other according to my own will and by an apparent conscience, compared to the larger-than-universe purity of force and will of First Cause, implies GRACE on his part towards me.

Again, what did you expect to see?

As I said, I’m not a philosopher and though I appreciate the philosophical exercises, I’m more about hard facts of life.

I described what I expect to see in my original post and in other posts. The Bible doesn’t seem like a book from God to me for the reasons I described. Also I don’t see evidence of God working in my life or in lives of Christians in the way He does in the Bible
 
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Mark Quayle

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As I said, I’m not a philosopher and though I appreciate the philosophical exercises, I’m more about hard facts of life.

I described what I expect to see in my original post and in other posts. The Bible doesn’t seem like a book from God to me for the reasons I described. Also I don’t see evidence of God working in my life or in lives of Christians in the way He does in the Bible
For whatever it is worth to you, there is considerable reason to think the Spiritual is a harder reality than this life is. But I get your point —you need to see something that 'works for you', something that fits this current 'reality' as you perceive it. No doubt, you, like most others, would refer to that as "empirical".

One of the intellectual reasons I have to believe in God (and in the Bible as the Word of God) is the very fact of the mundaneness of this life, the ordinary, the weak and stupid, even vile and corrupt 'representatives' we Christians are, that he uses anyway, and the very fact that his acts (including the Bible) don't measure up to human conceptions of what God should be like. God's strength is shown in weakness.

But notice the Bible says, "An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign..." (Matthew 16:4)
 
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James_Lai

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My understanding of the spiritual is that it influences the psyche and the physical realm, so it's not really a question of, "is it spiritual or a force of nature?" It's more like, "is the spiritual moving nature at this time?" Science can tell us how something happens, as a chain of events. But it can't give a deep explanation of why certain things happen. Back to the plague of darkness, it could explain the geological processes behind a volcanic explosion and how far the wind could carry the debris, but not why it covered Egypt after Pharaoh had refused to let Moses' people go. So even in the case of a rational and scientific explanation of any event that the Bible credits God with, there was still more behind it than science can explain. And so I keep an open mind to that when evaluating reports of contemporary miracles and providence.

Now, it's possible to over-spiritualize too, and that's not healthy. I'm not about that either.

I understand this. So in those cases God’s intervention would be virtually undetectable. God does very direct and obvious things in the Bible, and the NT encourages to seek and obtain God’s active involvement. Any time I ask a believer to tell me how God works in their life, they say, ‘I prayed and found a job’. ‘I was sick and the hospital’s treatment worked’. Similar things claimed by Muslims or Hindus or same thing happen to unbelievers who say ‘I was lucky’ or ‘science did it’… I’m not saying that God and Jesus in particular didn’t influence those events, but there can be a rational explanation as well without God
 
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James_Lai

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For whatever it is worth to you, there is considerable reason to think the Spiritual is a harder reality than this life is. But I get your point —you need to see something that 'works for you', something that fits this current 'reality' as you perceive it. No doubt, you, like most others, would refer to that as "empirical".

One of the intellectual reasons I have to believe in God (and in the Bible as the Word of God) is the very fact of the mundaneness of this life, the ordinary, the weak and stupid, even vile and corrupt 'representatives' we Christians are, that he uses anyway, and the very fact that his acts (including the Bible) don't measure up to human conceptions of what God should be like. God's strength is shown in weakness.

But notice the Bible says, "An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign..." (Matthew 16:4)

Suppose we establish through observation and logic that there is God, then there still remains a question of His attributes and actions. Is He the Christian God? It is a related, but separate problem.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I understand this. So in those cases God’s intervention would be virtually undetectable. God does very direct and obvious things in the Bible, and the NT encourages to seek and obtain God’s active involvement. Any time I ask a believer to tell me how God works in their life, they say, ‘I prayed and found a job’. ‘I was sick and the hospital’s treatment worked’. Similar things claimed by Muslims or Hindus or same thing happen to unbelievers who say ‘I was lucky’ or ‘science did it’… I’m not saying that God and Jesus in particular didn’t influence those events, but there can be a rational explanation as well without God
You say, "God does very direct and obvious things in the Bible". Well he does nowadays too, though nobody seems to want to believe it, so they don't repeat the accounts except in a mocking way. In fact, it may well be possible he does it more now than back then, as a general rule. How many accounts do we have over a mere lifetime now, as compared to however many over the 4000 years or so of the Old Testament?

It is true, however, that we don't have prophets or apostles nowadays in the same way they did in the OT and NT, and so we don't now have the same mindset concerning accepting prophesy or moral authority of others over ourselves, as they did back then.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Suppose we establish through observation and logic that there is God, then there still remains a question of His attributes and actions. Is He the Christian God? It is a related, but separate problem.
I can show what (to me) is logical reason, by way of logical implications, the majority of the attributes claimed by Scriptures, as necessary to First Cause. In fact, as far as I know, everything from Aseity to Goodness —ALL the agreed attributes of theoretical GOD by philosophy, including my own— are spoken of directly in Scripture in one way or another.

But yes, there are things, (not just attributes but apparent results of his declared attributes such as Love and Truth), said about him in the Bible, that, so far as I know, have not been developed logically by philosophy. Among them are the Trinity, and in particular, the Godhood and Humanity of the Son of God, redemption by Jesus Christ and his resurrection, and the Bride of Christ as the Dwelling Place of God, though I find these to be more than reasonable, and even intuitively understandable as necessary.

But see, this is part of why I marvel at Scripture and at God himself —I think he DID show us plain reason why one should believe in Christ intellectually —at least logically, perhaps even by empirical evidence. I rather imagine that when we see him as he is, we will (figuratively) smack our foreheads and say, "Of course! —why didn't I see that all along!" But intellectual is not his requirement right now, (nor can it of itself save anyone), but faith, and that, generated by the Spirit of God, not by the will of man. Yet some become aware of the faith, through the intellect, and the understanding. Such seemed to happen to CS Lewis, for example.
 
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James_Lai

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The Church is to be God's hands on earth. If you are having trouble feeling the presence of God, seek out a strong body of Christ, ideally a church that will take your cultural differences into account.



Please, James Lai, do not take statements like this to heart, as the exclusive way of Jesus. Worldly governance, communist and capitalist are antithetical to the love of Christianity. Seems like you are very much aware of the communal aspects of Christianity. Hold fast to that. Many western Christians have a difficult time with this due to the extensive individualism that runs rampant through the "faith." Be very careful with advice from American Christians. The church in our country has sadly been polluted with worldly politics.

Yes I did go to a Chinese Alliance church. My impression is that there is no real faith there. I say it with love, not to criticize for the sake of criticizing. People were very nice there.

Don’t worry, it’s not the first time I meet someone who misunderstands the ideals of communism. They have wrong information from many years of anti-communist propaganda. Some people who during their whole life have been told one thing about communism, it’s impossible to convince them to change their mind
 
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You say, "God does very direct and obvious things in the Bible". Well he does nowadays too, though nobody seems to want to believe it, so they don't repeat the accounts except in a mocking way. In fact, it may well be possible he does it more now than back then, as a general rule. How many accounts do we have over a mere lifetime now, as compared to however many over the 4000 years or so of the Old Testament?

It is true, however, that we don't have prophets or apostles nowadays in the same way they did in the OT and NT, and so we don't now have the same mindset concerning accepting prophesy or moral authority of others over ourselves, as they did back then.
wha are examples of those acts?
 
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