Many called, few chosen

[Andyman_1970]

But that is exactly how it happened to me in the 20th century. Perhaps Calvin was closer to the truth than you allow. Jesus did go and get some of His disciples.

This is not to say that Jesus had not chosen her before this. He was familiar with the family apparently. Perhaps she had been reluctant to submit before this? Perhaps the "horse" is always God's sovreign choice, and our obedient submission is the "cart"? The cart is after all yoked to the horse.

Asaph

I guess my point (and I'm pretty neutral on the OP), is that to take what Jesus said to His disciples specifically and automatically think it applies to us (it may or it may not) divorced of it's cultural and historical context is IMO a misuse of the Text. [edit: I'm not asserting anyone on this thread did that, I'm just stating my position FWIW]

The whole "which came first, the cart or the horse" is a mystery I truly think we will not understand this side of heaven - the tradition that Jesus came from celebrated mystery (vs. our Western desire to solve things and sometimes "force" them to make some kind of sense), the rabbi's celebrated the fact that this was something (which the rabbi's do discuss, the free will issue) they cannot figure out.

Anyway...........that's my 2 shekels.............

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Wow--this stuff isn't what I expected to hear when I read the title of this post at all.

(I'm glad you're back too, RP, by the way!)

I agree that we don't know who the words 'called' and 'chosen' are intended to represent. But my first thought wasn't about that--it was about how God has so perfectly set us up for success--whether we be called OR chosen...or BOTH?!

In reference to salvation, consider the person who hears the good news without hinderance of any kind. Presented before him is a choice, but a choice that can only be made one way if the one choosing is sane. *If the good news is presented to an individual who doesn't see that choosing Jesus is a winning choice, this has occurred either because:

a.) the person isn't of a right mind, or
b.) because the message was flawed or skewed--and NOT THE good news.

If this is true, God has set us all up for success.

Being chosen sure seems preferable to merely being called. If we have nothing to do with which category we ultimately wind up in (called or chosen) in life, what does this say about God--does He play favorites?

What does God intend us to ultimately glean from Matt 13, The Parable of the Sower? I think that since the system God designed is in place and functioning, destiny is where we ultimately wind up after passing through it. As we go through life we're naturally at different stages of spiritual growth and understanding at different times--we've also got the option to expose ourselves more to the things of God. We are what we eat. *We may not be able to directly change what we believe, but we sure have the option of obeying the Word and dwelling on the good things of God; of having a relationship with our creator. In doing this, when we come upon choices in life, rather than choosing between good an bad, we wind up choosing between good and gooder! Staying close to God by choice (fostered by the desire we have for Him--He has set up for success by giving us this growing desire) changes us from shallow soil to good soil.

I don't know but I think that we are chosen based upon how we have passed through the system here on earth. He chose us--we didn't choose Him--it's His system. He put it in place. Where we wind up at the end of it here--even though we can obey (NOT through Works) Him and cash in (so to speak) on the truth that we become better soil as a result, the end result of where we are then is the result of His choice for us...it's His system.

The whole "which came first, the cart or the horse" is a mystery I truly think we will not understand this side of heaven - the tradition that Jesus came from celebrated mystery (vs. our Western desire to solve things and sometimes "force" them to make some kind of sense), the rabbi's celebrated the fact that this was something (which the rabbi's do discuss, the free will issue) they cannot figure out.

Well put, bro.

 

[Trish1947]

Andyman_1970.... I guess my point (and I'm pretty neutral on the OP), is that to take what Jesus said to His disciples specifically and automatically think it applies to us (it may or it may not) divorced of it's cultural and historical context is IMO a misuse of the Text. [edit: I'm not asserting anyone on this thread did that, I'm just stating my position FWIW]

But doesn't adopting this thinking limit the words of God to a culture and time frame and maybe has no value to those outside of that time frame and culture? If He said that my words are Spirit, they are life, and those same words are revealed to our spirits as they we're back then, how can they not have the same relevence to the one that "hears" them today? Since it's the same Spirit speaking to our hearts, as back then, how can the callings of God be any different to us?

 

[inrsoul]

Here's another point to ponder...

What if one grows up in a totally non-believer, idol-worshipping environment? But strangely has the desire to want to know the one true God. That person goes on a hunt for God, long, winding process but eventually, grace found the person instead. The person gets saved. Would you call that person, a "chosen"?

 

[Andrew]

riverpastor,

Mat20: 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

My Pastor's interpretation is this:

1. this has nothing to do with salvation
2. the chosen are those who can trust in the goodness of God ie not bargain with him.

The 11th hour generation are those who, though they work less, are rewarded the same or more, simply becos they trust in the goodness of God and so did not negotiate with God for their rewards. So such people are the "chosen" ones.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

But doesn't adopting this thinking limit the words of God to a culture and time frame and maybe has no value to those outside of that time frame and culture? If He said that my words are Spirit, they are life, and those same words are revealed to our spirits as they we're back then, how can they not have the same relevence to the one that "hears" them today? Since it's the same Spirit speaking to our hearts, as back then, how can the callings of God be any different to us?

The language of the heart doesn't communicate with some trendy style going on--it isn't wearing bell bottoms or pink poodle skirts. The language of the heart is timeless, apart from mental understanding, and never misunderstood.

 

[Trish1947]

The language of the heart doesn't communicate with some trendy style going on--it isn't wearing bell bottoms or pink poodle skirts. The language of the heart is timeless, apart from mental understanding, and never misunderstood.

AMEN, JBG..

 

[brother daniel]

This also should be considered with "straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it." As Trish 1947 has said "Blessed are those who hear the Word of God and do it".
All are called, the chosen are those that do it.Do what? They put Jesus first in every situation. They forgive their enemies and those who missuse them.
Discipleship is doing what we hear from Jesus. Jesus chooses his disciples.

 

[Andry]

Jesus chooses his disciples.

And interestingly, one of them was a thief and a devil, and another one was a betrayer. In fact, Jesus made the thief the treasurer.

 

[Andyman_1970]

But doesn't adopting this thinking limit the words of God to a culture and time frame and maybe has no value to those outside of that time frame and culture? If He said that my words are Spirit, they are life, and those same words are revealed to our spirits as they we're back then, how can they not have the same relevence to the one that "hears" them today? Since it's the same Spirit speaking to our hearts, as back then, how can the callings of God be any different to us?

I think the problem becomes, for example, when the passage from John 15 is used to explain salvation, which it totally has nothing to do with. I have the same problem with the use of the verses in 1 Tim, where Paul tells Timothy (who is in Ephesus) not to let women be elders or leaders, to say that women today (not in Ephesus) should not be elders or leaders.

To take the Text and separate it from it's cultural and historical context in order (and sometimes with seemingly good intentions) "force" it to say what we think it should say (or what we've been told it should say) is, again, IMO a misuse of the Text.

I hope that made some kind of sense............

 

[Andyman_1970]

And interestingly, one of them was a thief and a devil, and another one was a betrayer. In fact, Jesus made the thief the treasurer.

He also chose a tax collector and a zealot, two polar opposites of the day.

 

[puriteen18]

It is about salvation!

All men are called. Nature shows that there is a God, no man has an excuse to say that he didn't know there was a God.

Few are chosen. Out of the whole of sinful, depraved men, only a few are chosen for salvation.

On what basis does God choose. By our works? our attitude?

No. Our best righteousness is just as used menstrual clothes in the eyes of Jehovah.

He chose us based only on His mere pleasure!

And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.


It not by works. It's by GRACE, by GRACE!!!!

Dear friends, read the Bible for what it says, and do not try to manipulate its words!
All said here has been out of complete sincerity and hope that you would hear the truth.

 

[brother daniel]

Well Andyman, Since the subject is, Who are the Called and Chosen? It would seem that because this is a spirit filled meeting we should invite the Holy Spirit into this discussion to remind us what Jesus has said. After all, Jesus is the same yesterday,today and forever. We can plainly see from the four gospels that Jesus is calling everyone to be his disciples. We can also see that not everyone who is called will do what he says. WE can be sure we are called but until we have endured unto the end we cannot be sure we are chosen.We have all seen some who were sure of their salvation and witnesed them fall away.Why because of unbelief they could not do what Jesus was calling them to do. We are in fact taught by the Holy Spirit to let everyman work out his own salvation. In the Revelation of Jesus Christ he warns those of us who are called to repent and do our first works. WE know that though he was sending a message to 7 ekklasia's in Asia minor he ment the message to be heeded by all who are blessed by reading it. What did he call us to do? He called us to act on his words. His calling is only vague to those who are not doing it.

 

[Trish1947]

I think the problem becomes, for example, when the passage from John 15 is used to explain salvation, which it totally has nothing to do with. I have the same problem with the use of the verses in 1 Tim, where Paul tells Timothy (who is in Ephesus) not to let women be elders or leaders, to say that women today (not in Ephesus) should not be elders or leaders.

To take the Text and separate it from it's cultural and historical context in order (and sometimes with seemingly good intentions) "force" it to say what we think it should say (or what we've been told it should say) is, again, IMO a misuse of the Text.

I hope that made some kind of sense............

I see what you are saying as far as their interpretations and teachings as far as their culture would accept back then. But it doesn't necessarily mean it was taught by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They were teaching what was acceptable during their time.They knew nothing different. I dont think the Holy Spirit, limited Himself to anybody's culture. They were still a growing, learning church.

 

[NewSong]

RP:

Actually I am very much confused now that the subject as come up! I actually always was taught and haunted by the fact that it meant only a few people would get to heaven and the rest wouldn't but the "Many are called, Only a few are chosen."

The responses I have seen indicate that it could be God only selects a few because otherwise we could get into works?

Interesting that it could be something other than what I always believed.

Thanks for your comments.

NewSong

 

[Blade]

Hay RP just wanted to say you were missed.

 

[Andrew]

It is about salvation!

All men are called. Nature shows that there is a God, no man has an excuse to say that he didn't know there was a God.

Few are chosen. Out of the whole of sinful, depraved men, only a few are chosen for salvation.

It's not about salvation becos the Bible declares that many will be saved.
NOT "A FEW".

Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Re 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And this great multitude is just those ppl who have come out of the great tribulation, it does not even include those millions of saints who lived and died before the tribulation.

SO PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW "a few chosen" = "a great multitude, which no man could number".

Dont let this false doctrine that only a few elite ones will be saved rob you of your joy and scare you! Think for a moment: Did the Father and Son go thru all that suffering and sacrifice, plan the whole thing from the foundation of the earth, and only manage to bring "a few" souls into the kingdom?!

 

[Christian Dude]

I really don't agree with the Calvinist teaching of God only choosing certain ones to be saved. God wants everyone to be saved, but only few *not meaning just a couple, but many but not all* will accept the salvation and go forth.

 

[BBAS 64]

I really don't agree with the Calvinist teaching of God only choosing certain ones to be saved. God wants everyone to be saved, but only few *not meaning just a couple, but many but not all* will accept the salvation and go forth.

.
Good Day, Christian Dude

I would like to jump in here and address some of the Scripture in th op and hope to do so shortly. "God wants every one to be saved", If that is what God wants what ablity does he lack to forfill His desire?

I will sumit that Jesus saves His people and only his people. You call it Calvinism, but that is the Gospel and Calvin would be quite humble in refering you back to what the Scripture say.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.



Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, riverpastor

Just thought it would be nice to address some of the verses you pointed out in the OP with in the context.

Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The historical and traditional propocal for the wedding of the prince "son of the king" #2. is as follows the decree went out to the whole of the king's kingdom requesting attendance to the wedding of the Prince.

As part of the king's duties he was to provide the clothing to the people who were chossen by the king to accually attend. This clothing was provided by the king to give glory and adoration to the prince.

The fellow in verse #11, was not given clothes by the king and tried to invade the wedding and was spotted by the king the overseer of the fuction.

All are called few are choosen by the hand of the king and given the kingly garments by the hand of the king, to glorify the prince.

Peace to u,

Bill