Manner of reception

tampasteve

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The LCMS churches I communed in received in the hand. You had the option of the minister placing it on your tongue, but no one knelt.
 
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JM

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The LCMS churches I communed in received in the hand. You had the option of the minister placing it on your tongue, but no one knelt.
At my LCMS English District congregation we all kneel at the altar rail, some take it in the hand others on the tongue. I took communion on the tongue last Sunday for the first time and it was a different experience. When you look at the history taking it in the hand seems to be the North American practice.
 
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The Liturgist

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Do you kneel at the altar rail while the minister places the host on the tongue? Not touching the base of the chalice as you receive the Blood of Christ?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

It is sad that in Roman Catholic churches, one only finds this commonly in the Traditional Latin Masses that Pope Francis is trying to abolish (aside, obviously, from the reception of the chalice). The reverent reception of the Eucharist using the particular procedure you refer to thus has become something that one most commonly finds in Confessional Lutheran and Anglo Catholic parishes, among the larger Western churches.

Also Lutheran churches, at least LCMS churches, usually do not bother with the innovative practice of celebrating the Eucharist versus populum, which actually wasn’t really a thing until around 1951, when it was lamentably popularized by the Church of South India, which was a result of the merger of most Protestant denominations around the end of the British raj into just three churches, those of South India, North India, and Pakistan (with the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which was a Reformed church among the St. Thomas Christians of India using a highly redacted form of the Syriac Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. James also surviving, and its liturgy in turn influencing the liturgy of the Church of South India in a positive direction, however, celebration of the liturgy versus populum did not come from the Mar Thoma Syrian Church and is unheard of among the Syriac Orthodox, but rather seems to have come a bit out of left field). Historically the Anglicans also celebrated the liturgy facing liturgical North according to the 1552 BCP, but this practice fell out of use, although I recall seeing one United Methodist pastor who was in other respects not influenced by the Book of Common Prayer do it, but they did not celebrate versus populum.

It is for a collection of small resources like these that I regard confessional Lutheran churches which seem dedicated to the preservation of Lutheran Orthodoxy and the standards of Lutheran worship from the 16th and 17th century, and the important doctrinal definitions that form the basis of a liturgical theology accompanying that worship, so delightful and important. I don’t know if Lutheran members are aware of the extent to which I hold Lutheranism in esteem, or the extent to which I value the LCMS parochial school in which I spent the best years of my childhood.
 
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Shane R

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My congregation just recently dropped down to one service. Within a week they were suggesting that maybe I should have some communion assistants. Thus far I have been able to resist. It really doesn't take that much longer for me to serve everyone myself than what it does if they give me a chalicist and I hate having people kind of milling around while I'm trying to go back and forth to the altar and get more bread or wine. We do have a rather long rail and most people kneel. I generally end up getting everyone served in 3 tables.

They had the chancel so cluttered up at Christmas with their enormous tree and dozens of poinsettias that I could barely get around the altar! It would have been nearly impossible to not get in each other's way if I had a chalicist at that time.
 
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The Liturgist

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My congregation just recently dropped down to one service. Within a week they were suggesting that maybe I should have some communion assistants. Thus far I have been able to resist. It really doesn't take that much longer for me to serve everyone myself than what it does if they give me a chalicist and I hate having people kind of milling around while I'm trying to go back and forth to the altar and get more bread or wine. We do have a rather long rail and most people kneel. I generally end up getting everyone served in 3 tables.

They had the chancel so cluttered up at Christmas with their enormous tree and dozens of poinsettias that I could barely get around the altar! It would have been nearly impossible to not get in each other's way if I had a chalicist at that time.

You could negate any weirdness around this issue by suggesting they have a member become a deacon, perhaps? Since deacons are allowed to serve as ministers of the chalice in every liturgical church without restriction, and are not usually controversial.
 
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Shane R

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You could negate any weirdness around this issue by suggesting they have a member become a deacon, perhaps? Since deacons are allowed to serve as ministers of the chalice in every liturgical church without restriction, and are not usually controversial.
They've got a lay worship leader that went through some degree of formal training. I'm not sure exactly what that entailed but he occasionally does a communion from the reserved sacrament. He also often accompanies me when I take home communion to some of the elderly.
 
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JM

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They've got a lay worship leader that went through some degree of formal training. I'm not sure exactly what that entailed but he occasionally does a communion from the reserved sacrament. He also often accompanies me when I take home communion to some of the elderly.
My congregation doesn't reserve the sacrament but re consecrates each time they visit a shut in.
 
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The Liturgist

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The LCMS churches I communed in received in the hand. You had the option of the minister placing it on your tongue, but no one knelt.

Regarding kneeling I have mixed feelings on this myself because of Canon XX of Nicaea, however, I would note that I am not aware of any church which entirely adheres to Canon XX. Virtually everyone has some bows, genuflections or prostrations that occur on Sunday.
 
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The Liturgist

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They've got a lay worship leader that went through some degree of formal training. I'm not sure exactly what that entailed but he occasionally does a communion from the reserved sacrament. He also often accompanies me when I take home communion to some of the elderly.

Do you think it might be possible to have him consecrated as a deacon? Because if you did that it would eliminate any theological concern over the issue and also put to bed any discussion of having LEMs.

Interestingly under the canon law of the early church if I recall only persons of at least the rank of Subdeacon were allowed to touch the altar table, and of course only deacons and higher could serve the Eucharist. But there is still a need for Eucharistic ministers, for example, in an Eastern or Coptic Orthodox church, a cloth is held under the communicant to prevent spilling, whereas in Roman Catholic churches and some LCMS churches I have seen a device which looks like a giant putty knife, which I think has a bit of an advantage in that a single altar server can hold it (but there might be some risk of a mishap in which it is accidentally allowed to bump a parishioner, although I have never heard of this happening).

By the way, at some point soon i will be posting a thread in Traditional Theology about some interesting things I recently learned in terms of a historical connection between Martin Luther and the Oriental Orthodox, which I find a bit thrilling given the frequent connections between Anglicans such as John Wesley and the Eastern Orthodox.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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We kneel as we are able. I think I am the only one who receives on the tongue, but everyone could if they wished. Most, myself included take the bottom of the chalice (helps reduce the risk of spill), we have the option of individual cups as well and just guessing but likely about 60% use them. There is a gradual shift away from them that started almost immediately post covid. May it increase.

As covid was ending, we had no altar guild left, all had gone into isolation, and only a couple was interested in returning to service. I ended up in the position of "Sacristan" by default, doing everything; my wife doing laundry and I was doing the ironing, paraments, set-up and clean-up for two services (due to numerical restrictions, we held one service in the Church and another in the Chapel).

As more and more persons returned to in person worship, the work load increased. After discussion, the Pastor and the rest of the Elders gave the congregation a mandate; either we get enough volunteers for all year altar guild duties, or we ditch the individual cups.

We now have a fully functional Guild. LOL.

BTW, none would do laundry as it was a struggle to remove red wine stains; we switched to white wine (yes, there was some crying, but again I offered to buy red wine, if they would assume the laundry responsibilities. We are still using white wine. LOL.

People. LOL.
 
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We kneel as we are able. I think I am the only one who receives on the tongue, but everyone could if they wished. Most, myself included take the bottom of the chalice (helps reduce the risk of spill), we have the option of individual cups as well and just guessing but likely about 60% use them. There is a gradual shift away from them that started almost immediately post covid. May it increase.

As covid was ending, we had no altar guild left, all had gone into isolation, and only a couple was interested in returning to service. I ended up in the position of "Sacristan" by default, doing everything; my wife doing laundry and I was doing the ironing, paraments, set-up and clean-up for two services (due to numerical restrictions, we held one service in the Church and another in the Chapel).

As more and more persons returned to in person worship, the work load increased. After discussion, the Pastor and the rest of the Elders gave the congregation a mandate; either we get enough volunteers for all year altar guild duties, or we ditch the individual cups.

We now have a fully functional Guild. LOL.

BTW, none would do laundry as it was a struggle to remove red wine stains; we switched to white wine (yes, there was some crying, but again I offered to buy red wine, if they would assume the laundry responsibilities. We are still using white wine. LOL.

People. LOL.

So you know Mark in Orthodoxy we prefer to receive communion on the tongue, but we do not normally kneel to receive it, especially not on Sundays, because our churches lack an altar rail, and also, kneeling on Sundays is prohibited by the least-observed canon from the Council of Nicaea, Canon XX (but one sees Eastern Orthodox Christians kneel all the time on Sundays, but it is for this reason that the Kneeling Vespers service on Pentecost is a Vespers, because by making it a Vespers, that advances the liturgical day from Pentecost or Whitsunday to Pentecost Monday, and one can kneel on any Monday outside of Eastertide, which ends on Pentecost Sunday (and furthermore, in Orthodoxy, the anti-fasting restriction ends after Bright Week if I recall, whereas it used to be the entire period until Whitsunday was devoid of Wednesday and Friday fasts).

Now the Copts on the other hand do kneel during every divine liturgy, but not when receiving the Eucharist; this is done standing, in a few different procedures, which can take significantly longer than the Eastern Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox procedures, because whereas the Eastern Orthodox provide communion in the form of an inticted particle of the leavened Lamb, the bread which becomes the actual Body of Christ our Lord, which is basically floating in the Blood of our Lord mixed with hot water (Xenon), since ancient canons observed by all traditional churches except the Armenians prohibit using an unmixed chalice, that is to say, straight wine undiluted with water, in the Eucharist, and in this manner the ratio of Body to Blood can be varied, which is very useful in communing infants, but there is the shared spoon, although interestingly in those churches which refused to change their procedures during the pandemic, no one became ill. Likewise I have heard of no cases of illness resulting from a shared chalice as used in other churches such as the Assyrian Church of the East. The Syriac Orthodox have a method wherein the body of our Lord, which is also leavened in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, is intincted in the blood of our Lord, and then the priest pops the piece of the body into your open mouth without the use of an implement or touching you, so theoretically their procedure is the most hygeinic, but that is not why I like it. Rather, I particularly like it, and the Eastern Orthodox procedure, because I like the experience of the intincted Eucharist.
Now the Copts do not intinct, but rather, the Eucharist is administered in a manner similiar to how the Eastern Orthodox do it, but one element at a time, and in most parishes, the men, seated on the right, and the women, seated on the left, pass through what would in an Eastern Orthodox parish be the “Deacons’ Doors” to the side of the Holy Doors of the main altar (in Coptic parishes these have the curtains, which all Eastern Orthodox churches are supposed to have but some do not, indeed there are a few “modern” parishes that even lack doors on the iconostasis, but this is more common in Byzantine Rite Eastern Catholic Churches (some of which, before Vatican II, were even built without an iconostasis due to Latinization), indeed, all of the Oriental Orthodox churches and the Assyrian Church of the East use curtains, which in some are opened and closed at different parts of the service, and in others remain open throughout a service (for instance, the Coptic Orthodox Church), whereas during Lent the curtain is closed in Armenian churches and only the priest receives the Eucharist, which is in marked contrast to the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox practice of receiving the Eucharist with greater frequency during Lent. The Copts form a tight line, and if there is only one priest, administer only one element at a time, so the men and then the women receive the body of our Lord, and then the blood, one after another, and afterwards there is a cup of holy water provided to wash it down.

The experience of being in a queue (or line as we call them in the US and presumably Canada (do you guys line up or queue up up there? That could be one of those interesting cultural differences, like how you pronounce the letter Z in the British style) while waiting to receive the Eucharist in a Coptic church, is really special, because one gets crushed together with all of the other laity who are receiving the Eucharist, and there is a strong sensation of brotherly and sisterly love. When I have attended with a female relative who is also Orthodox, the women took very good care of her.

Most Eastern churches, like Roman Catholics, have a method of catching loose particles. So when kneeling at the altar rail of a Traditional Latin Mass, there will be an altar server who will hold what looks like a giant putty knife under your chin when the priest gives you the consecrated Host (which is what Catholics call the unleavened bread which they consecrate in the Mass, derived from the Latin hostiam, which means “victim”, compare “hostage”), which in Orthodoxy is leavened (except in the Armenian church as indicated, which is alone among Oriental Orthodox churches in using unleavened bread; I think some Eastern Catholic churches like the Maronites might also have adopted unleavened bread due to Latinization, but historically most churches in the East have used leavened bread). In Eastern Orthodox churches, since one receives the Eucharist standing, two men hold a cloth underneath the chalice while the priest serves the Eucharist, which will catch any crumbs or droplets.

In all Eastern churches, blessed bread called antidoron is provided to everyone afterwards. The Copts have the best tasting antidoron, because they bake it (and the Eucharistic bread) immediately before the liturgy, and then during the liturgy bake additional antidoron to take home, and the recipe they use is incredibly simple yet incredibly tasty; I have frequently had a relative of mine who likes to bake bake bread for me according to the Coptic recipe (this bread is not antidoron of course, unless it were specifically blessed, but the fact is that the bread the Copts bake is amazing.) In Armenian churches I have heard this is unleavened; Armenians seem to like unleavened bread and eat a form of it called Lavash, which they dip in their delicious soups, stews and in Babaganoush and other delicacies one can find in Armenian restaurants (which occupy a happy middle ground between Greco-Turkish “Mediterranean” food, Persian food, which is also often called “Mediterreanaen”, Lebanese food, and importantly, Russian and Ukrainian food, due to the Soviet connection, with delicacies like Borscht and Pelmeni. This varies depending on where in the Middle East the Armenians are from, so those few still living in Turkey will have more of a Greek style, those in Lebanon more of a Lebanese style, those in Iran more of a Persian style, and those in Republic of Armenia more of a Russian and Ukrainian style (I say Russian and Ukrainian because Borscht, as a soup, originated in Ukraine, whereas Chicken ala Kiev is actually a dish of Soviet origin, I believe it was invented at the luxurious Hotel Ukraina in Moscow, as opposed to being a pre-Soviet Ukrainian dish like Borscht (which also spread throughout the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where frequently an egg is beaten into it, unlike in Russian and Ukrainian and Armenian restaurants where this is uncommon). However, Chicken ala Kiev is similiar to a Russian dish called “Kotlets” which are basically breaded cutlets, the innovation basically being the garlic sauce. But I digress. Speaking of which, there is a retired airline and test pilot on youtube who has a superb aviation channel who digresses more than I do, and is printing a round of “But I Digress” T-shirts; his channel is Ron Rogers, and he was a pilot for United from 1979 until 2015 and before that a test pilot for the USAF, Boeing and Cessna.
 
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The Liturgist

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BTW, none would do laundry as it was a struggle to remove red wine stains; we switched to white wine (yes, there was some crying, but again I offered to buy red wine, if they would assume the laundry responsibilities. We are still using white wine. LOL.

This is actually a huge problem. You’re supposed to burn items where the blood of our Lord has been spilled on it if it is already consecrated, and the use of white wine is frowned upon because its not red, and while the Romans had it, it doesn’t look like blood and it is fantastically unlikely that our Lord and his disciples used it at the last supper.

I would urge you to advocate for the burning of contaminated items, and for people to be more careful handling the body and blood of our Lord, and for the use of red wine, in order to stress the Real Presence of the Sacrament. I believe the norm in Orthodox churches is to use the Thurible, itself a consecrated vessel, or another consecrated vessel, to burn where possible liturgical material that needs to be disposed of, which also includes the sponges used in the Chalice in a manner similar to the purificators used in Western churches, and icons which have deteriorated and become unsalvageable. Interestingly the ash from decomissioned icons is one of the ingredients often found in Chrism (which is predominantly myrhh, but with other materials as well, so that for example, the chrism consecrated by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople has sixty different items, and it is made not during a Chrism mass as in the West, but every few years during Holy Week by specially appointed perfumers who are granted Holy Orders specifically for making the Chrism).

In addition to the burning of consecrated items, the other traditional approach used in the West is a consecrated drain, or piscina, which is not used for the unconsumed Blood of our Lord remaining in the Chalice, which the presbyter must drink, but which is used for other things. Our mutual friend @Shane R might know how these work.

I do of course realize that your church is not entirely high church Evangelical Catholic so you might get some pushback, but I greatly admire your own Eucharistic piety, which is why I urge you to contend for this sort of thing as much as you can without loosing your influence in the parish, since the unfortunate political realities of parish life is that one can only push so hard for something within a parish.

Oh by the way I downloaded your Maundy Thursday service and am looking forward to seeing it, as I really like the services you yourself conduct, and I really do think you should, when you retire from your secular job, consider seeking ordination as a presbyter. It would be an honor to someday concelebrate the liturgy with you.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think I am the only one who receives on the tongue

That’s too bad. But at least you are the leader in Eucharistic piety within your parish. Its just a pity that your brothers and sisters have not been as well-catechized as you.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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This is actually a huge problem. You’re supposed to burn items where the blood of our Lord has been spilled on it if it is already consecrated, and the use of white wine is frowned upon because its not red, and while the Romans had it, it doesn’t look like blood and it is fantastically unlikely that our Lord and his disciples used it at the last supper.

I would urge you to advocate for the burning of contaminated items, and for people to be more careful handling the body and blood of our Lord, and for the use of red wine, in order to stress the Real Presence of the Sacrament. I believe the norm in Orthodox churches is to use the Thurible, itself a consecrated vessel, or another consecrated vessel, to burn where possible liturgical material that needs to be disposed of, which also includes the sponges used in the Chalice in a manner similar to the purificators used in Western churches, and icons which have deteriorated and become unsalvageable. Interestingly the ash from decomissioned icons is one of the ingredients often found in Chrism (which is predominantly myrhh, but with other materials as well, so that for example, the chrism consecrated by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople has sixty different items, and it is made not during a Chrism mass as in the West, but every few years during Holy Week by specially appointed perfumers who are granted Holy Orders specifically for making the Chrism).

In addition to the burning of consecrated items, the other traditional approach used in the West is a consecrated drain, or piscina, which is not used for the unconsumed Blood of our Lord remaining in the Chalice, which the presbyter must drink, but which is used for other things. Our mutual friend @Shane R might know how these work.

I do of course realize that your church is not entirely high church Evangelical Catholic so you might get some pushback, but I greatly admire your own Eucharistic piety, which is why I urge you to contend for this sort of thing as much as you can without loosing your influence in the parish, since the unfortunate political realities of parish life is that one can only push so hard for something within a parish.

Oh by the way I downloaded your Maundy Thursday service and am looking forward to seeing it, as I really like the services you yourself conduct, and I really do think you should, when you retire from your secular job, consider seeking ordination as a presbyter. It would be an honor to someday concelebrate the liturgy with you.
Eastern and Western Churches have different practices regard many things including the Eucharist. There are procedures that are followed for the proper purification of altar linens. Lots of info on line. White wine makes it easier to perform with good results.

Where in Scripture does it state that only "RED" wine is acceptable? That sounds a little legalistic; kind of like a protestants that practice believers baptism stating one can only be baptised but full immersion; sprinkling won't do... yet they deny baptism as a salvaic means of grace.

What about Bread? We do know that our Lord was celebrating the Passover in the upper room; we also know that only unleavened bread would be used at that meal. This is the also, as you know, the practice of most "western" Christians. Yet the orthodox use leavened bread; yet we western Christians not only accept the validity of the Eucharist in Eastern Churches, but don't take issue with the use of leavened bread.

Likewise, like Baptism, the mode of reception is only important regarding themings being done respectfully and in good order.

What really matters most is summed up in Luther's Small Catechism and regarding our discussion here, please see the highlighted portion below:

Part VI

Sacrament of the Altar

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
01 What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
02 Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.
03 Where is this written?
04 Answer: The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.
After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.
05 What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?
06 Answer: That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.
07 How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?
08 Answer: It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins
.
09 Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?
10 Answer: Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.
But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.
 
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