Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

Henaynei · Jan 24, 2012

yedida said:
Did I say that? I said we pick what is advertised as "clean" and let God deal with the rest. We can't go beyond that which is advertised.

We can go on information given to us.
You asked me what is in wine that could possibly make it not kosher.
I posted 2 sources that clearly document seriously unkosher ingredients used in wine making, including pig feet and bull blood.
Madison Avenue can advertise a muck wagon as "clean."
Advertising is unreliable as to what is clean or not.
However, as MJism finds itself a spectrum of opinions on what clean or observant (among other Torah concepts) is or is not it is not unlikely you and I will disagree on the topic at hand.
b'Shalom achoti

yedida · Jan 24, 2012

Henaynei said:
We can go on information given to us.
You asked me what is in wine that could possibly make it not kosher.
I posted 2 sources that clearly document seriously unkosher ingredients used in wine making, including pig feet and bull blood.
Madison Avenue can advertise a muck wagon as "clean."
Advertising is unreliable as to what is clean or not.
However, as MJism finds itself a spectrum of opinions on what clean or observant (among other Torah concepts) is or is not it is not unlikely you and I will disagree on the topic at hand.
b'Shalom achoti

No, I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I didn't ask that of anyone. I simply placed a scenario for those who were fussing about things offered to idols. Stating that if we got a mislabeled bottle of wine we wouldn't be condemned.

Lulav · Jan 24, 2012

I think the point is if the bottle doesn't have a hecksher it most likely is unkosher in many ways.

yedida · Jan 24, 2012

That's what I was getting at. If we think we're purchasing something that is kosher but somehow the wine isn't due to equipment or such, all we can do is know we've done the best we can to obey and just let God do the rest. The same for if the bottle is mislabeled. That would go for any product we're wanting to purchase.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 24, 2012

yedida said:
Never heard of the store, but know the street it's on well. At this point, with my car on the fritz, doesn't make much difference. It looks like a health food store, so would most health food places, like GNC stores, have many kosher items? or was this store just coincidental?

When I get back to Ohio, there is an Orthodox Jewish community not too far away, and in the other direction there is an Amish community. (Wow!! Good eats in both directions. Can't wait. Getting so excited.) But I can check both areas out for items. (I wasn't as kosher observant when I left Ohio as I am now. That's why I'm getting excited, it's been difficult here in this city.)

Be mindful that Mennonites and Lutherans (like the wife and I) use much lard (pig fat) and butter together in our baked goods. Not Kosher.

pat34lee said:
I can't say for other countries, but few wines in America or Canada contain any ingredients that are not kosher in themselves. And since most modern wineries are made by an automated process, they are fully clean wine, even if not rabbinically supervised.

<snip>

You may be surprised... glycerine is a natural product of aging wine; sometimes this is added by vintners to "hurry" a wine along... aging = capital expenditure, quick sale = cash-flow (maximized profit). Glycerine is made be refining non species specific animal fat. One can buy Kosher glycerine... at a premium. I'm a wine maker BTW. Some use Polypropylene-glycol instead; it's made from Propane.

Henaynei said:
What's really in that wine? - LA Times article

Vegan Wine

hmmm... yes, indeed - that is all kosher?? I think not. I'll stick to kosher, thanks. It may still have some of those ingredents but at least I'm assured that what is in the bottle is kosher.

visionary said:
Dallas Plant Investigated For Dumping Pig Blood Into Trinity River « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

DALLAS (CBSDFW.COM) – Federal, state, and local authorities say a Dallas meat-packing company is under criminal investigation for possibly illegally dumping pig blood into a creek that leads to the Trinity River.

Investigators executed search warrants Thursday at the Columbia Packing Company on East 11th Street in Oak Cliff.

The Texas Environmental Crimes Task Force has been looking into the plant for two months now. Dallas County has been working with federal and state investigators ever since the tip came in.

The task force is now investigating whether the pig blood came from a secondary pipe not connected with the waste water system.

Dallas County health officials say photos investigators took show blood appearing to flow from the Columbia Packing Company into Cedar Creek and then into the Trinity River.

As recent as the 1950's or 60's there was a meat packing plant in Peterborough Ontario which discharged into Rice Lake; one could always count on hooking a good sized muskie or pike if one trolled near the discharge pipe; since the plant is gone, the lake is much cleaner, but the fishing has suffered

.

yedida · Jan 24, 2012

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Be mindful that Mennonites and Lutherans (like the wife and I) use much lard (pig fat) and butter together in our baked goods. Not Kosher.

You may be surprised... glycerine is a natural product of aging wine; sometimes this is added by vintners to "hurry" a wine along... aging = capital expenditure, quick sale = cash-flow (maximized profit). Glycerine is made be refining non species specific animal fat. One can buy Kosher glycerine... at a premium. I'm a wine maker BTW. Some use Polypropylene-glycol instead; it's made from Propane.

As recent as the 1950's or 60's there was a meat packing plant in Peterborough Ontario which discharged into Rice Lake; one could always count on hooking a good sized muskie or pike if one trolled near the discharge pipe; since the plant is gone, the lake is much cleaner, but the fishing has suffered.

Shalom Mark,
There's a nice grocery market near where I'll be moving. I used to shop there for all my foods before, but I didn't stay in the "kosher" section so much because I wasn't as observant then as now. At the time kosher bath soap didn't register, if you know what I mean. I didn't understand the full implications like I do now. I'll be so happy to be able to find most all of my needs in one market place.

pat34lee · Jan 24, 2012

Let's change the scenario. Say "John Doe" wines are made with no unclean ingredients or processes (biblically, not rabinically) but he doesn't want to pay for kosher certification. If you know this as fact, would you pass it by for kosher labelled wine?

yedida · Jan 24, 2012

pat34lee said:
Let's change the scenario. Say "John Doe" wines are made with no unclean ingredients or processes (biblically, not rabinically) but he doesn't want to pay for kosher certification. If you know this as fact, would you pass it by for kosher labelled wine?

What would you do?

Henaynei · Jan 24, 2012

yedida said:
No, I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I didn't ask that of anyone. I simply placed a scenario for those who were fussing about things offered to idols. Stating that if we got a mislabeled bottle of wine we wouldn't be condemned.

My bad, I apologize for my confusion and error. Please forgive me.

You are correct - there is sacrifice for the unintentional sin.

Henaynei · Jan 24, 2012

Lulav said:
I think the point is if the bottle doesn't have a hecksher it most likely is unkosher in many ways.

Yes, so it would seem.

Henaynei · Jan 24, 2012

pat34lee said:
Let's change the scenario. Say "John Doe" wines are made with no unclean ingredients or processes (biblically, not rabinically) but he doesn't want to pay for kosher certification. If you know this as fact, would you pass it by for kosher labelled wine?

That would seem to just transfer the responsibility for ensuring the additives were truly clean back one "generation" in the product chain. Dear John Doe would be depending on the word of others, who likely have no idea what kosher/clean is, that their products meet standards they don't understand.

True kashrut for manufactured products is a body of knowledge with many pitfalls and requiring deep study. The ingredients, processes, equipment, containers all along the way from where the raw materials started to when the product is shipped out to the consumer has to be known and clean.

Early on in this thread I pointed out just one example of this. It would seem that sticking with a health food store or sticking with Natural products would solve the issue to some. However, something as simple as Natural red food coloring will gum up the works. It IS Natural, but it is made from a crustacean, a clear Leviticus 11 no-no. Natural cheese is made with rennet, a natural product. But the rennet comes from the lining of infant animal stomachs, some of which are porcine and all of which are certainly not kosher, unless so specified. The beat, and the issue, goes on...

yedida · Jan 24, 2012

Henaynei said:
My bad, I apologize for my confusion and error. Please forgive me.

You are correct - there is sacrifice for the unintentional sin.

No problem.

pat34lee · Jan 24, 2012

Henaynei said:
That would seem to just transfer the responsibility for ensuring the additives were truly clean back one "generation" in the product chain. Dear John Doe would be depending on the word of others, who likely have no idea what kosher/clean is, that their products meet standards they don't understand.

True kashrut for manufactured products is a body of knowledge with many pitfalls and requiring deep study. The ingredients, processes, equipment, containers all along the way from where the raw materials started to when the product is shipped out to the consumer has to be known and clean.

Early on in this thread I pointed out just one example of this. It would seem that sticking with a health food store or sticking with Natural products would solve the issue to some. However, something as simple as Natural red food coloring will gum up the works. It IS Natural, but it is made from a crustacean, a clear Leviticus 11 no-no. Natural cheese is made with rennet, a natural product. But the rennet comes from the lining of infant animal stomachs, some of which are porcine and all of which are certainly not kosher, unless so specified. The beat, and the issue, goes on...

Take for granted that if you can find information, someone else can also. Especially one who is making the product. The scenario is that the wine is bilically clean. Totally, from grape to bottle.

Lulav · Jan 24, 2012

yedida said:
That's what I was getting at. If we think we're purchasing something that is kosher but somehow the wine isn't due to equipment or such, all we can do is know we've done the best we can to obey and just let God do the rest. The same for if the bottle is mislabeled. That would go for any product we're wanting to purchase.

I think Henaynei was listing all the things that the kosher supervision looks for before certifiying any product as 'kosher', meaning fit for Torah observant to consume.

This may help

Gelatin, casein, and bull blood are inadmissible in the kosher wine-making process. Only the bacteria or kosher enzymes from the bowl may be used for fermentation. All devices and utensils used for the harvest or the processing of the grapes must be cleansed under supervision. Bottles may not be filled multiple times.
In addition, all processing steps must be implemented in agreement with the requirements of Halacha (Jewish Religious Law). For example, in the vineyard no other plants may be cross-bred with the grapes (because of the prohibition of hybridization).

The supervision does not just apply to wine, but also to grape juice and any product of the vine.

For concerns about mislabeling (which does happen) you can be alerted when they become aware of someone using the hecksher without proper certification.

You can sign up here. Kashrut.com - Kosher Food Alerts and Mislabeled Products

They also generously give health alerts such as the newest one you all in the south may want to heed.

Winn-Dixie Stores, Inc., today announced an immediate Class I voluntary recall of all LEASA Living Alfalfa Sprouts sold in the 6 oz. package with a UPC code of 7546555912. According to the Federal Drug Administration (FDA), the product is potentially contaminated with Salmonella.
Out of an abundance of caution for guests, Winn-Dixie is also immediately recalling the following LEASA-branded sprouts from shelves in all stores, including Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana: Mul>
LEASA Broccoli Sprouts 7546555636 4 oz
LEASA Gourmet Sprouts 7546555633 6 oz
LEASA Spicy Sprouts 7546555635 6 oz
LEASA Onion Sprouts 7546555634 6 oz All LEASA sprouts being recalled were sold between Jan. 7, 2012, and Jan. 18, 2012, and have expirations dates between Feb. 1, 2012, and March 15, 2012.
People who have purchased the product may visit their neighborhood Winn-Dixie to request a full refund, no questions asked. To receive the refund, customers may present proof of purchase through a receipt or the product packaging label. Consumers with questions about the recalled products may contact the Winn-Dixie Guest Service Center toll free at 1.866.WINN-DIXIE (866.946.6349)

Lulav · Jan 24, 2012

pat34lee said:
Take for granted that if you can find information, someone else can also. Especially one who is making the product. The scenario is that the wine is bilically clean. Totally, from grape to bottle.

What do you deem to be Biblically clean? Are you arguing that the Rabbinic standards are not?

yedida · Jan 24, 2012

Lulav said:
I think Henaynei was listing all the things that the kosher supervision looks for before certifiying any product as 'kosher', meaning fit for Torah observant to consume.

This may help

The supervision does not just apply to wine, but also to grape juice and any product of the vine.

For concerns about mislabeling (which does happen) you can be alerted when they become aware of someone using the hecksher without proper certification.

You can sign up here. Kashrut.com - Kosher Food Alerts and Mislabeled Products

They also generously give health alerts such as the newest one you all in the south may want to heed.

I actually didn't realize that Winn Dixie was still a viable business till someone mentioned it in this thread (I think). The only one I remember used to be in the city that I left 12 years ago, and it had gone out of business about 2-3 before then. Live and learn.
Thanks for the information about the sprouts. I know many people will make great use of it. For myself, I've never ventured into sprouts, except for Brussels (but I don't think they're the same kind, right?)

Actually, to be honest, I never knew there were more than alfalfa. Do the broccoli sprouts taste similar to broccoli? If so, I'll need to give them a try. And some of the others that you mentioned. Do the others taste similar to their namesakes? (I'm not very brave anymore, don't try too many "new" things, lol.)

Henaynei · Jan 24, 2012

pat34lee said:
Take for granted that if you can find information, someone else can also. Especially one who is making the product. The scenario is that the wine is biblically clean. Totally, from grape to bottle.

They may be able to find some information, as I found some. But not all that is necessary to unequivocally state that it is kosher from grape to bottle.

You keep trying to say that producer is able to say if his product is kosher, and I keep trying to say - No. "What we have here is a failure to communicate."
The nuances of even what is "biblically" kosher takes years of study, it is a vast body of information when if comes to manufactured products.

I'm not about to trust a non-trained or non-supervised individual to determine what is or is not clean.

This may go back to my training as a nurse. When it comes to clean, in the Operating Room I mean sterile, it is or it is not - it is NOT open to interpretation and yet it takes a lot of study to know the difference and the qualifications.

So, if they have the study or training, they'll have the heksher. Thus the issue is solved, the certificate would be posted at the facility and the product would proudly bear the certification mark.

On the other hand, if you have decided that you will take their word for it; that they know enough to meet G-ds standard, that is between you and G-d. Just please dont bring those items to a gathering where the people are expecting kosher foods. That would be injurious and disingenuous as well as dishonest.

pat34lee · Jan 24, 2012

Lulav said:
What do you deem to be Biblically clean? Are you arguing that the Rabbinic standards are not?

Biblically clean is using foods that are clean according to the Torah. No more, no less. Rabbinic kosher add many layers of vain tradition on top of the biblical standards.

Henaynei · Jan 24, 2012

Rabbis, who have for centuries earnestly and honestly sought their entire lives to know, serve and honor HaShem and to understand His word and commandments so that they and their people could obey G-d.

pat34lee · Jan 24, 2012

Henaynei said:
They may be able to find some information, as I found some. But not all that is necessary to unequivocally state that it is kosher from grape to bottle.

You keep trying to say that producer is able to say if his product is kosher, and I keep trying to say - No. "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Exactly. I say clean, you say kosher. One is biblically sound, the other is a vast set of traditions, only some of which are based on the biblical commands.

Henaynei said:
The nuances of even what is "biblically" kosher takes years of study, it is a vast body of information when if comes to manufactured products.

I'm not about to trust a non-trained or non-supervised individual to determine what is or is not clean.

Yet you would trust a rabbi you have never met and know nothing of his qualifications either. Modern wineries are not run by people who have no idea what they are doing. If they did, they would be out of business rather quickly.

Henaynei said:
So, if they have the study or training, they'll have the heksher. Thus the issue is solved, the certificate would be posted at the facility and the product would proudly bear the certification mark.

Why would they, unless they planned on marketing mainly to Jews?

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