mandatory vaccinations

IHOM said:

You wish to remove my freedoms based on your acceptance of a totally untrustworthy government say so....that is totalitarian and tyrannical.

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It's not the government, it's the medical community.

People who don't get shots put other people's kids at risk.

IHOM said:

You wish to remove my freedoms

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Your freedom to deny your children medical care and to endanger other people in so doing? That's not freedom. That's child neglect and involuntary manslaughter. Children and adults will die of these diseases because of people who refuse to get their children vaccinated. I'm glad California is doing something about this.

If people genuinely can't afford to get their children these vaccines or can't get them to the clinics where they are administered, then let's offer them the vaccines for free and give them free transportation to and from. But if it's just intransigence, I would say that it's time to stop allowing that to be an excuse. My hypothetical kid who is in the group with legitimate medical reasons for not getting vaccinated or on whom vaccines don't work shouldn't die because you don't want to get your hypothetical kid vaccinated and he infects my kid. That's not right. Not to mention that your hypothetical kid could die too in that scenario because of your poor choice, and I'm not sure parental "rights" should extend that far- children have rights, too.

It's unethical and immoral to deny your children vaccinations.

A fully informed choice does not reject proven information for fantasy. Again the information is not from the government. Multiple independent sources verify. It seems many people who argue for not vaccinating get in a circle of confirmation bias and fallacious arguing to justify a position that hurts others. It is not a pro-life stance. In fact it is the closest cousin of Pro-Abortion logic that is not straight up Eugenics.

IHOM said:

indoctrinated choice

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You can believe whatever you want about vaccines. That's not the issue. No one is telling you what to think. People are saying that we are going to potentially make legal requirements that children be vaccinated because children have the right to be protected from these diseases regardless of their parents' views on this subject, and because not vaccinating children who could be vaccinated puts children who can't get vaccines for medical reasons, who are immune to the positive effects of vaccines, who get a vaccine that doesn't work, and so on and so forth at risk. People in the community as a whole will suffer and die from people choosing not to vaccinate their children, and generally we don't let people inflict suffering and death on other people.

Plus, if these diseases come back as we're starting to see isolated cases, and are able to thrive and reproduce in large numbers, they may eventually mutate so that they are immune to the vaccines, and then we could have full scale outbreaks and plagues against which there is no protection. Remember what polio did way back when? We can't risk that happening again.

IHOM said:

I dont want to infect kids that is the most absurd thing i have witnessed on the internet in my entire life... do you seriously believe i want to infect kids....

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I am not saying you intend for anything bad to happen or want anything bad to happen. I am saying that the consequences of your actions might be that your hypothetical kids and members of the larger community get infected, suffer, and die. You not believing that a failure to vaccinate has those consequences doesn't mean that it doesn't actually have those consequences.

Someone can decide that he doesn't believe in AIDS and have unprotected sex with ten AIDS infected women who he knows have that diagnosis, and then go out and have unprotected sex with ten uninfected people. He might not intend to get AIDs. He might not intend to spread AIDs. He may generally believe AIDs is a hoax. But, most likely, if he follows that course of action, he will get AIDs and he will spread it.

Beliefs don't dictate reality in most cases. Reality generally is what it is.

but how can i trust a government wanting force me to vaccinate my kids

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You don't have to get your children vaccinated by the government if legislation like this passes. You can go to the doctor of your choice and have someone you trust administer the shots.

It's ok, IHOM, just take comfort that those like you are responsible for the reintroduction of diseases once thought wiped out in the Western world. Is it a belief that they are harmful that drives you or something else?

IHOM said:

My kids are vaccinated

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Then why are you raising a huge fuss if you recognize just how important it is to do that?

IHOM said:

Because freedom is more important...dont you get that?

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No, because in my mind you are arguing that you should be able to drive on the left hand side of the road because, you know, freedom. You don't have the freedom to endanger other people.

Maybe cars are also given by G-d. Then you should be able to do what you want in your car, right?! Should we also let parents who are abusive keep their kids since, you know, given by G-d?

I was obviously talking about the United States where driving on the right hand side is normal. If you live in the US and drive on the left hand side, please go to the nearest police station and tell them about your cunning plan.

I think there are a lot of children who grow up and one day feel very fortunate that they were not considered property of their parents and were removed from abusive homes and placed in ones where they were safer. I think there are also a lot of children who suffered abuse and even death at hands of abusive parents who, if they are or were alive today and grownup, are or would be very upset at the people who said nothing when they suffered all those years of abuse, the people who knew and stayed quiet, because they thought it was none of their business.

We talk about about the government as if it's their cold faraway inhumane thing. And sometimes people do experience that way. But, in a democracy, a government is in some ways just a group of village elders. There are 300-400 million of us here in the US, and we can't all go to the town hall and vote on every issue, nor would it make sense for all of us to be in law enforcement or to have an office in child protective services. So, we deputize people to do things for us collectively, to make sure that people have what they need and can feel safe and secure, especially with children. And though there is a special bond of love, responsibility, and often genetics between parent and child that allows us to back off at certain points and the parent raise the child as he or she feels fit, there are limits. There's a point at which we say "Look, this child is a person to, and we aren't going to let a parent break his ribs every night or sexually abuse him. This child is a person who has rights, and we have a responsibility to the child.". The child may be the ward of the parents, but the child is not the property of the parents. The child is to some degree his or her own person, and to some degree a member of society.

And, in a case like this, it becomes beyond just our responsibility to the one child, but the responsibility to children of parents who do the right thing, to *all* of the children, and their responsibility to us, and our responsibility to each other. Because there are some things like vaccinations where the cost is too steep to the children and to the society when too many parents refuse to do the right thing. And sometimes we have to, hopefully gently, step in and try to help the parents find it within themselves to do the right thing. And, in this case, the right thing is to let the family doctor vaccinate the child.

I do agree that children need to be taken away from abusive parents

I just do not see this as a form of abuse
it is weighing the risks
there is a risk that goes along with getting a vaccine
and there is a risk to not getting a vaccine
this is not the same as denying a child medical care that is clearly needed, like a blood transfusion when that is needed,
you can NOT get vaccinated and still never get these illnesses, you can get the vaccine and it might not take and you will still get sick, or even worse, you can get the vaccine and the vaccine itself can have serious complications

to me, this is an infringement of personal autonomy
yes, the government does represent the collective, but that does not give them cart blanch rights over my body

to be honest, I think democracy has hurt us in some ways
because the Government is seen as "us" we go along with some really horrible things, like the military draft
yeah, we do not have the draft right now, but democracies do have a history of a draft

Rhamiel said:

I do agree that children need to be taken away from abusive parents

I just do not see this as a form of abuse
it is weighing the risks
there is a risk that goes along with getting a vaccine
and there is a risk to not getting a vaccine
this is not the same as denying a child medical care that is clearly needed, like a blood transfusion when that is needed,
you can NOT get vaccinated and still never get these illnesses, you can get the vaccine and it might not take and you will still get sick, or even worse, you can get the vaccine and the vaccine itself can have serious complications

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You can drive without breaks and still get there in one piece.
You can have good working breaks and still crash.

But the two are not compatibly sensible options.
And no one should be allowed on public roads doing the former.

Refusing vaccines isn't abuse, but it is negligence.