Man that was iritating...

[FranJ]

OK, here seeking, not messing about, I've just been reading around some of the threads including the full time ministries threads to get a general feel for the people on here ... read a bit on should women be ministers and was thoroughly disappointed to read a diatribe on how women are only fit to teach children and other women.

Maybe, if the bible is taken literally (and there wouldnt be so many denominations if that was always the case) then you either accept christianity with those limitations or not at all. I have children, I also run my own business, am the bread winner in my household, play in a rock band etc. etc. If this really is the case then I'm failing the whole seeking thing at the first hurdle becasue I just cant accept that.

Should change my emoticon from fine to irritated

 

[BobW188]

My current pastor is a woman, as is the pastor of another church in this small town.
Before we moved down here from a Twin Cities suburb, we attended a church pastored by a woman, whose district superintendent was a woman, whose bishop was a woman.
If you are in fact "exploring christianity" as the forum topic says, one thing you're going to learn is that "Christianity" no longer has any meaningful consensus decision and that we get along with each other about as well as Grant & Lee, George Washington & George III, Adolf Hitler & Winston Churchill. This is one of the better reasons so many people consider us silly.
Suggestion: read the four Gospels at your own pace. What do youy think of this guy called Jesus? Could he be who He says He is? Could he have done what these books say He did? Judge Christianity by Christians and you're likely to have mixed feelings at best. Better to judge Christianity by Christ.

 

[LJSGM]

I spend a lot of time debating those indoctrinations that are not in the bible.

 

[LJSGM]

Here is just a sampling.


It seems to me that head means that a man should "love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church"

Now, I don't see anything that says that man's role is to rule over his wife. Nor do I see anything that says that a woman is to be treated like a child, or that she can not work outside the home, ect.

If society treated women like dogs and saw this verse and translated that head ment to treat women like dogs, that would be defining the verse based on one's culture.

Now I did present to you a verse that shows what a "head" does mean and you ignored it.

Col 2:19
And 2532 not 3756 holding 2902 the Head 2776, from 1537 which 3739 all 3956 the body 4983 by 1223 joints 860 and 2532 bands 4886 having nourishment ministered 2023 , and 2532 knit together 4822 , increaseth 837 with the increase 838 of God 2316.

And this goes very well with Ephesians "he feeds and cares for it"

You are adding rulership to these verses and trying to use the curse to prove it, which is just really off the wall in my opinion.

So far, the only thing that you have used scriptures to try and prove is that a man's role is to rule over his wife, and then go on to deny that a man is suppose to rule over his wife.

 

[FranJ]

Thank you for taking time to consider and reply. I relate to not judging religeon based on what christians say, good advice ... I have a lot of christian friends, some are wonderful people, others, well, not a good advert. The piece I read quoted a lot of bible passages. Unless you go to theology college are you going to just trust what any random person says? I think not. On the other hand, if people quote the bible how can you ignore that (again unless you understand the context you're at the mercy of how that person has interpreted what they've read), if you can't trust Christians then you have to trust the bible. It disturbs me that there is so much disagreement, and really makes it hard trying to understand firstly whether I believe it and secondly whether Im capable of living by it. On one hand you read testimonies from ex gang members who've had miraculous conversions, on the other hand in a lot of churches if you're divorced wont marry you, there is division over whether women can be priests, actively gay priests are practicing in Scotland ... how the **** do you make sense of that? There is so much inconsistency, it makes my head hurt just trying to rationalise any of this.

 

[LJSGM]

Salvation is not based on whether you get it all right or not, it is based on Jesus who gives it... But it is love for God that I search for the truth, with the help of the Holy Spirit. That's all that matters.

Luke 10
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]" 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

 

[FranJ]

Yep, I probably am distracted by the church as it is in everyday life. The trouble with faith is it is by definition intangible, and although I used to believe in my teens I cant bring back to mind what made me so sure. I cant help looking to earth based evidence...aka the church/christians around the world. What you quote sounds so simple and Ive heard that passage 100 times, it's a big ask though ... I wouldnt just believe in aliens because I want them to exist. There has to be something more tangible than that.

 

[ebia]

OK, here seeking, not messing about, I've just been reading around some of the threads including the full time ministries threads to get a general feel for the people on here ... read a bit on should women be ministers and was thoroughly disappointed to read a diatribe on how women are only fit to teach children and other women.

Maybe, if the bible is taken literally (and there wouldnt be so many denominations if that was always the case) then you either accept christianity with those limitations or not at all. I have children, I also run my own business, am the bread winner in my household, play in a rock band etc. etc. If this really is the case then I'm failing the whole seeking thing at the first hurdle becasue I just cant accept that.

If we take a meaningful understanding of 'taking the bible literally' the issue is still much more nuanced than one might imagine. There are only two or three texts that appear to say that women cannot teach, and the greek of those is rather more open to other readings than the English translations would suggest. Against those one has an enormous number of places in the narrative (both the explicit narrative of the Gospels and Acts and the implicit narrative of Paul's letters) that are quite revolutionary in the way they subvert assumptions about the roles of women (and others). Most noticably in John 20 and Luke 10.

IMO resistance to women teaching in protestant circles isn't about reading the bible literally, but a result of giving primacy to the (apparently) propositional statements and commands over and above the narrative. Something that is at odds with scripture itself, which is primarily narrative.

 

[ebia]

Thank you for taking time to consider and reply. I relate to not judging religeon based on what christians say, good advice ... I have a lot of christian friends, some are wonderful people, others, well, not a good advert. The piece I read quoted a lot of bible passages. Unless you go to theology college are you going to just trust what any random person says? I think not. On the other hand, if people quote the bible how can you ignore that (again unless you understand the context you're at the mercy of how that person has interpreted what they've read), if you can't trust Christians then you have to trust the bible. It disturbs me that there is so much disagreement, and really makes it hard trying to understand firstly whether I believe it and secondly whether Im capable of living by it. On one hand you read testimonies from ex gang members who've had miraculous conversions, on the other hand in a lot of churches if you're divorced wont marry you, there is division over whether women can be priests, actively gay priests are practicing in Scotland ... how the **** do you make sense of that? There is so much inconsistency, it makes my head hurt just trying to rationalise any of this.

If God is committed to working through his people to put the world to rights, and yet those very people are as much part of the problem as anyone else, then it is going to be a messy business with set-backs and mistakes. But the alternative is simply giving up on us.

 

[FranJ]

I'm coming to the conclusion that you need to take the middle ground and ignore the extreme views and that represents basically what the church stands for. If I had time to read the bible I would (probably sounds like a poor excuse but I'm currently establishing a professional practice, preparing for a research degree and have a family too). I think that is why in trying to satisfy my curiosity I was hoping to get some consistency and input without having to trawl through 2000 pages or however long the bible is. Im not a fan of one line quotes, you can make those say just about anything. Trouble is the core message is simple but about as easy to grasp as smoke.

 

[aiki]

OK, here seeking, not messing about, I've just been reading around some of the threads including the full time ministries threads to get a general feel for the people on here ... read a bit on should women be ministers and was thoroughly disappointed to read a diatribe on how women are only fit to teach children and other women.

Maybe, if the bible is taken literally (and there wouldnt be so many denominations if that was always the case) then you either accept christianity with those limitations or not at all. I have children, I also run my own business, am the bread winner in my household, play in a rock band etc. etc. If this really is the case then I'm failing the whole seeking thing at the first hurdle becasue I just cant accept that.

Should change my emoticon from fine to irritated

So, what is it you're seeking? Are you seeking God? If so, it sounds like you're seeking God like you would seek a house or a new car. Is God just a commodity to you? Is He a product you can choose to suit your tastes? I ask because more and more people in and out of the Christian community are approaching God with the view that He is merely an addition to their life, rather than life itself. But Jehovah-God, the God of the Bible, can never be sought and found by people who seek Him this way. God will never enter your life as anything other than what He is: The Heart of Everything, The Center of the Center of the Universe, the Lord God Almighty who is Master and Commander of All. Such a God, of course, takes a back seat to no one and no thing - especially not our preferences. He will have all of you, or you will have none of Him.

Peace to you.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

My personal view is that women are very welcome to minister in churches. It is the Holy Spirit that counts, a woman with the Holy Spirit is equipped for any problem they are likely to face. In the Old Testement there was a woman prophet, or judge who Judged all of Israel, i.e. when people had a problem they went to her. In the new testement we see Agabas having daughters who prophesied, you can't prophecy with your mouth shut. The bible says "there is neither male nor female all are one in Christ"; meaning every one is united by the same Holy Spirit, they all have the same status forgiven and empowered. God wants forgiven people living in unity of faith.

2Th 1:11 With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.

You seem like a very bussy person, you probably need the verse above, that "God may fulfill every good purpose of yours", I pray he helps you in all of your endevours.

 

[talitha]

FranJ, I believe you really are a seeker, and I appreciate seeing that around here, we get a lot of mockers and not many like you. Becoming a Christian is not intellectual, but rather a heart issue - it's deciding to pursue a relationship with God through the avenue He extends - Jesus. It is up to HIM to mold us into what He wants us to be - we do not have to pattern ourselves after other Christians, only stay close enough to hear Him!

God bless you as you seek Him! Just don't try for the middle of the road..... that's not where He is.....

blessings
tal

PS - All that stuff about women not being in ministry - that was not made up by God!

 

[ephraimanesti]

OK, here seeking, not messing about, I've just been reading around some of the threads including the full time ministries threads to get a general feel for the people on here ... read a bit on should women be ministers and was thoroughly disappointed to read a diatribe on how women are only fit to teach children and other women.

MY DEAR SISTER,

IF you are here "seeking, not messing about" i would strongly suggest that job #1 for you is to get to know Jesus--Who He is and what He is about. DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE DISSUADED by those claiming to speak in His Name--LISTEN TO HIM ALONE, and make your decisions based upon that and that alone. Read through the Gospels--Matthew, Mark, Luke, and especially John as many times as it takes for you to get to know Jesus intimately and thus be able to make a fully informed decision regarding the relation you desire WITH HIM.

Maybe, if the bible is taken literally (and there wouldnt be so many denominations if that was always the case) then you either accept christianity with those limitations or not at all. I have children, I also run my own business, am the bread winner in my household, play in a rock band etc. etc. If this really is the case then I'm failing the whole seeking thing at the first hurdle becasue I just cant accept that.

What you are doing is throwing out the baby with the bath water--DON'T FALL INTO THAT TRAP! Your job is to decide in your own heart whether Jesus is, in fact, the Christ of God and whether or not you are willing to accept Him and surrender to Him with that understanding.

The rest will take care of itself in God's time. Whether women should be in the ministery or not is irrelevant to the primary issues and will become clear to you all in God's time. First things first and STAY FOCUSED.

MAY GOD BLESS AND KEEP YOU,
ephraim

P.S.

Should change my emoticon from fine to irritated

Better to change your emoticon from fine to prayerful as you contemplate the most infinitely important question Jesus asks of you, "Who do YOU say that I am?"(Matthew 16:15) May your answer be the same as Peter's!(Matthew 16:16)

 

[[serious]]

My current minister is a woman.

There are as many opinions among the denominations as there are in any other group of people.

 

[Adoniram]

...Trouble is the core message is simple but about as easy to grasp as smoke.

You're correct in your assessment of the core message. It is simply that God loves you, wants to have a relationship with you. The thing is that the sin that each of us has in our lives is a barrier to that relationship. Not only that, but the Bible says that because of sin, we are dead to the understanding of spiritual things. The good news is that God was not content to leave us in that state. He sent his Son, Jesus, to give us spiritual life. Rom. 6:23 talks about that. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." He died on the cross, paying the penalty for our sin. He also rose from the dead, proving that what he promised is true, mainly that he can give us life. If we confess to God that we are sinners and in need of His saving grace, acknowledge to God that this is available to us because of Jesus' sacrifice, and make an effort to turn from sinful practices, life and understanding, i.e. salvation, will be granted to us.

The "grasping at smoke" is the faith it takes to believe this. But Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of God, one must become as a little child. A child doesn't understand all the whys and wherefores of a parent's caring for him, but he naturally trusts that they love him and will take care of him. That is the kind of trust that our Father in heaven wants us to place in him.

That is the simplicity of Christianity. More knowledge comes as one studies the scriptures praying for God to give them understanding of what they read. But, one need not get all hung up on all the facets of the faith that Christians tend to argue about. If you're searching, start with the above and go from there.