"Man of the Cloth"

[d0c markus]

NON-CATHOLIC OPINIONS ONLY Thanks guys!

You know the catholic priest get-up? I think it looks pretty sweet myself. Is there anything in scripture that would prevent a minister from wearing it?

 

[cygnusx1]

yeh , don't wear a dress if your a guy.........Leviticus

 

[jenptcfan]

Well, since everyone in biblical times wore robes, I would think that there's nothing inherently sinful about it.

 

[Iollain]

A lot of people in other denominations wear something similar, depends on the person's style. Lots of Goths like to wear that style too.

 

[bleechers]

The NT makes no clergy/laity distinctions. Baptists hold dearly to the priesthood of the believer as taught in the epistles.

There is also some belief that these man-made distinctions are to what Christ is referring in the Revelation.

Revelation 2
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

The Greek compound word would suggest this.

NIKAO "to conquer"
LAOS "the people"

This was sin of the church at Pergomos (meaning: marriage) where the seat of Satan (Zeus's throne -false god) was. The Roman Emperors, as head of the Pagan Roman system, held the title "Ponifex Maximus". Some hold that Pergomos represents that period in church history where the church married the Roman system.

In addition to the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, Christ also says "I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication."

This is the beginning of the state-church (condemned by Baptists) in which a heirarchy was projected on to the church. This system came full circle when the Emperor Constantine merged the church with the Empire and placed the pagan priesthood over the laity.

My 3.4 cents

 

[BT]

Anything in scripture? hrmmmm I'll have to think about that. I think Bleechers makes an excellent point though. I wouldn't do it just because it may confused some people.. they may think that if we look like them that we're pretty much the same as them. Or if we adopted their fashion that we adopted their traditions or something... I'd veer away from it based on these two (guilt by associations) alone..

 

[@@Paul@@]

yeh , don't wear a dress if your a guy.........Leviticus

It's not a dress it's a cassock.

 

[Lynn73]

I agree with bleechers. Excellent point about man-made distinctions being made between people.

 

[d0c markus]

The NT makes no clergy/laity distinctions. Baptists hold dearly to the priesthood of the believer as taught in the epistles.

Interesting. you say there are no distinctions between the clergy and the laity but there are some:

1 Tim 3:1 If anyone desires to be an overseer he desires a noble task.

Can anyone see how this role is different from when an average joe sits in the pew?

1TH 5:12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.

While I agree that no 1 person is better than another, there is a pastoral authority set up by God that a clergyman has that someone who comes every sunday and sits in the pew doesnt.

That doesnt connote that a pastor can be all high and mighty in his respective role, but must serve with humility.

1PE 5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

In any case, I don't see how a "uniform" does anything but identify someone. Are there any other reasons not to wear it? What are your thoughts on the distinctions given to elders, there are indeed a few.

 

[bleechers]

Can anyone see how this role is different from when an average joe sits in the pew?

"role"

While I agree that no 1 person is better than another, there is a pastoral authority set up by God that a clergyman has that someone who comes every sunday and sits in the pew doesnt.

We must make a distinction between church "leadership" which I support, and church "clergy" which I do not.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

I know you know all this, this is just to clarify

The term "clergy" implies an "ordination". Darby put his opposition to clergy this way:

"We should come together in all simplicity as disciples, not waiting on any pulpit or ministry, but trusting that the Lord would edify us together, by ministering as He pleased, and saw good from the midst of ourselves... That ordination of any kind to preach the Gospel is no requirement of Scripture."

The point being that, yes, we do have an office of "elder" (or Pastor if we must), but that person is raised up of God from among the church. The requirements of an elder require the Body to observe him and make judgments concerning his lifestyle and his doctrine. That requirement of the Body never ceases.

So, again, I agree that there is an office for elders... but putting special garb on such a person is not scriptural and suggests that the person has authority that is not laid out in scripture.

I think we're probably close on all this.

 

[J.A.I]

Preachers wear robes... most do in fact.. of all Protestant denominations.. Some just wear suits though. Would you say the robes are wrong ?

 

[d0c markus]

"role"

I say it as a generality.

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Who am i to dispute peter.

We must make a distinction between church "leadership" which I support, and church "clergy" which I do not.

The term "clergy" implies an "ordination". Darby put his opposition to clergy this way:

Clergy/Leadership, its symanitcs if you ask me.

The point being that, yes, we do have an office of "elder" (or Pastor if we must), but that person is raised up of God from among the church. The requirements of an elder require the Body to observe him and make judgments concerning his lifestyle and his doctrine. That requirement of the Body never ceases.

So, again, I agree that there is an office for elders... but putting special garb on such a person is not scriptural and suggests that the person has authority that is not laid out in scripture.

I never said the garb had anything to do with authority. I brought up pastoral authority because you said there are no distinctions between clergy-"leadership"/laity and i wanted to point out that there were which you conceded above.

But anyways since were on authority now can you explain to me this scripture?

1TH 5:12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.

Also and what authority would this garb suggest?

I just want to be clear..

 

[bleechers]

Preachers wear robes... most do in fact.. of all Protestant denominations.. Some just wear suits though. Would you say the robes are wrong ?

"Wrong" is a strong word. I'm speaking for myself, but I just don't feel comfortable singling anyone out in the daily life of a local church. An elder is in that office of the local church, but we're all priests, we're all ministers.

I think a robe or a backward collar tends to send the message that HE does all the ministering, etc. and WE'RE just the laity with no responsibilities, etc.

But then again, I'm the paranoid type...

 

[J.A.I]

I don't see it that way. We are to respect our pastor and hold him in high esteem for he is responsible for leading the church under the authority of Jesus Christ. I see nothing wrong with my pastor donning a robe. Yes we are all ministers in some form or fashion, but we are NOT all elders nor PASTORS.

 

[J.A.I]

Also, so would it be wrong that the choir wears robes ? The ushers wear uniforms ? That the praise dance team wears their outfits ? I mean, don't want to send the wrong message that the choir does all the singing or the ushers do all the seating or the praise dancers do all the dancing...

See what I'm saying. There is a need for distinction and there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[mesue]

NON-CATHOLIC OPINIONS ONLY Thanks guys!

You know the catholic priest get-up? I think it looks pretty sweet myself. Is there anything in scripture that would prevent a minister from wearing it?

I believe it comes from Exodus
[Bible]Exodus 28:4[/Bible]

I don't know of a scripture verse that prevents a Pastor from wearing it.

 

[bleechers]

Just some thoughts:

I Thess 5
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

This passage is addressed to the church. Too often we misconstrue the role of an elder and think that he/they should do all these things. I agreed that elders are "raised up" and are shepherds to the flock, but that is not a role that necessitates that they be dressed in manner that suggests superiority.

Show me a guy in garb, I'll show you someone who is thought of as superior in some way. If you want to follow the scripture and its commnads in regard to this issue, you will not find any admonition for elders to be dressed or marked as being different from the "brethren". The safe way is the Bible way, and the Bible makes no reference to elder-garb.

I realize the following is not directly applicable to the church, but I believe there is a principle involved in regard to garb and position:

Luke 20
46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;

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Part 2

1 Timothy 3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


Who is to judge all these things in an elder? An ordination board? No, the brethren. When Paul appointed elders or admonished local churches to appoint elders, they were to do so from amongst themselves. That makes sense because only the local folks could truly assess if a man met the requirements of an elder.

The point of elders (pastors) is to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. How often does this happen in churches these days? That's just a pet peeve of mine

In any case, I don't see any garb assigned to elders.

 

[bleechers]

I don't see it that way. We are to respect our pastor and hold him in high esteem for he is responsible for leading the church under the authority of Jesus Christ. I see nothing wrong with my pastor donning a robe. Yes we are all ministers in some form or fashion, but we are NOT all elders nor PASTORS.

I don't disagree with the sentiment concerning high esteem, but you'll have to show me from the scriptures where "dressing is a special way" is taught.

Again, my admonitions are precautionary. Since the Bible is silent of the wearing of garb, I think it is best to avoid it. It can easily lead to someone feeling as though he (yes, I said "he" ) is preeminent.

3 John 1
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

If long robes made the scribes and pharisees feel preeminent, why not fall on the side of that principle and avoid the appearnce of the same?

 

[d0c markus]

Just some thoughts:

Luke 20
46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;

Yesterdays robes are today's suits. I like both and desire to wear both. Whats a man to do? I dunno, i dont think it makes me less humble.

I understand the points you make. And Luke 20 should be a great warning to us.

Bleechers, someone quoted a verse from exodus concerning priestly attire. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[bleechers]

Bleechers, someone quoted a verse from exodus concerning priestly attire. What are your thoughts on that?

You can't discect the law. The Law is all or nothing (Jas 2:10, etc.). I believe it has no bearing on the church. We have no earthly temple to serve.

Also, so would it be wrong that the choir wears robes ? The ushers wear uniforms ?

For the record, I'm against this too. Same reasoning as above.