Man of Sin revealed

[InSpiritInTruth]

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 we are told before the coming of the Lord there is to first come a falling away, and that man of sin shall be revealed. This falling away point pertains to the fullness of the Gentiles, but who is the man of sin? If we go back to Genesis 1:27 we see in the beginning God created man in his own image. We know by scripture that God is a spirit, and that he is the invisible God. So we know, and understand by this that God was not talking about an outward image, but rather an inward image.

Jesus told us to be( perfect), just as your Father in heaven is( perfect.) So by this we see, in the beginning man was created in the image of a ( perfect) God. With that let us go to Ezekiel 28:15 where the Lord is speaking to the evil one himself. The Lord said; " Thou wast( perfect) in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee. So who is the Lord talking to in this manner?

If you go back to verse 13 we see( this man) was in the Garden of Eden. Now some might think this is refering to Satan, but if you go back to Ezekiel 28:2 we see the Lord refers to him as( a man). The Lord tells this man, because his heart is lifted up, he has said I am a God, I sit in the seat of God. Meaning because of mans pride he has lifted up his heart against the Word of God, and has put his own ideas in the place of Gods Word. And this is just what the serpent told the man in the beginning; that he would be like God if he ate from the tree of knowledge.

This sitting in the seat of God means he has put himself in the place of God. And if we go back to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 we see this man of sin would exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the ( temple of God), showing himself that he is God. So what is the temple of God? In 1 Corithians 3:16 we see that we are the Temple of God. And we see in 1 Corinthians 6:19 that our body is to be the Temple of the Holy Spirit, which is made for God to dwell in.

Also in 2 Corinthians 6:16 we see the Lord said he would dwell in this temple of our body. But we are also told in 1 Corinthians 3:17 that if any man defiles this Temple,( him shall God destroy). So in the beginning God gave us this Temple, or Body, so that He might dwell in all his children. But the fleshy nature of man decided he knew better than God, and so then the iniquity entered, and man set himself up in the place of God.

We know by Romans 5:12 that by this first man Adam sin entered in, and by this sin came death; and this first sinful nature was passed on to all men. So we see the first state of man is to born to the flesh, that is to say he is carnally minded. It is written; to be carnally minded( is death), but to be (spiritually minded is life) and peace. Jesus said; that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. Showing how the first man is born flesh, but the born again man is made spiritual by way of God's Holy Spirit.

In Genesis 6:3 the Lord said; my Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is ( flesh.) It is this fleshy spirit that rules in the first-born man. For in Galations 5:17 we see the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. So the Lord showed us in the story Noah and the flood, and the story of the Exodus from Egypt, how all the( firstborn,) and all those who are born of (the flesh) must die.

That is also why Jesus said; ( flesh and blood) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And that is also why he said that except a man be born again of the Spirit, he shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Lord showed over and over in scripture how the first-born fleshy state of man would not be accepted of God. Just as with Esau, who sold out his birthright to feed his own fleshy desire. Just as Judas, who was a sign of that son of perdition, would also sell out the( Word of God) made flesh for his own personal gain.

So we see in all these examples the Lord has given us how all those who are still living in the flesh, which is the spirit of this world; shall also perish.

For instead of accepting the knowledge that only comes from God by faith in his Word, they have gone about to set up themselves through their own carnal way of thinking. And the man-made fleshy church is no diffferent. In Mark 7:13 Jesus told those hypocrites of his day; " You have made the Word of God of none effect through your traditions."

Truly man has sold out the Truth over profits, and personal gain, and has even changed the Truth to justify himself in his own eyes. Truly they have turned the Fathers House into a den of thieves.

All those who are not anointed with the ( oil) of the Holy Spirit, and are not washed in the blood, or ( wine) of the Lamb of God, will go into destruction.

Romans 8:13; " For if you live after the ( flesh) you shall ( die): but if through (the Spirit) do put to death the deeds of the body, ( you shall live.)

 

[1whirlwind]

Your post was really well done! It was in Spirit and Truth.


There is one part I question, where you wrote.....

If you go back to verse 13 we see( this man) was in the Garden of Eden. Now some might think this is refering to Satan, but if you go back to Ezekiel 28:2 we see the Lord refers to him as( a man). The Lord tells this man, because his heart is lifted up, he has said I am a God, I sit in the seat of God. Meaning because of mans pride he has lifted up his heart against the Word of God, and has put his own ideas in the place of Gods Word. And this is just what the serpent told the man in the beginning; that he would be like God if he ate from the tree of knowledge.

Satan, the fallen angel, was termed "man" as are others...not all fallen.

Revelation 19:9-10 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

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Angels are us...we are them...just at different stages of being. If we too are angels then they too are man. Satan, never born of woman, was a created being...a man/an angel.



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[InSpiritInTruth]

It is true that those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are truly spiritual, and no more fleshy minded; even though we are still in this fleshy body. Just as the scriptures say, he makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

But that which came first is flesh, and then that which is born after is spirit. Jesus made that point after his resurrection when he told his disciples to touch his flesh, because they thought they had seen a spirit.

The Lord showed this transition in the design of the Temple with a mans face, facing toward an angels face. These 2 different ministers are also represented by the 2 Cherubs that would cover the mercy seat; that is why the Lord called the man a covering Cherub in Ezekiel. This was because he overshadowed, or covered up the Truth.

But you also have to keep in mind that Satan is known as the prince of( the air,) meaning he cannot be seen with the naked eye. The carnal mind always wants to put a face to a name, but spirits are spirits. And just as the Lord's Holy Spirit works in many, so does this spirit of the devil, ( which is the spirit of the flesh) works also in many.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Whirlwind, I wanted to prove this ( many) point to you by scripture.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 we see this mystery of iniquity was already at work in Paul's time; which also shows how those flood waters were already released out of the mouth of the serpent way back then.

But notice in verse 8 we are told ( that) Wicked shall be revealed, not refering to a man. And then in verse 9 we see it says; " Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". We see here that he will be like Satan. But pay close attention how Paul describes " him" in verse 10-12.

" And with all decievableness of unrighteousness ( in them) that perish; because ( they) recieved not the love of the truth, that ( they) might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send ( them) strong delusion, that ( they) should believe a lie. That ( they all) might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Clearly by this description ( that Wicked) is more than just one man, but many.

 

[1whirlwind]

It is true that those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are truly spiritual, and no more fleshy minded; even though we are still in this fleshy body. Just as the scriptures say, he makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

But that which came first is flesh, and then that which is born after is spirit. Jesus made that point after his resurrection when he told his disciples to touch his flesh, because they thought they had seen a spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:40,44-46 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (44-46) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

We are "sown a natural body," so what were we before that? What were we when we were sown? We were spirit...the same spirit that steps out of our flesh body upon death. The spirit that was with Him, that was sown in our flesh body is the same spirit that returns to Him.....
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Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Lord showed this transition in the design of the Temple with a mans face, facing toward an angels face. These 2 different ministers are also represented by the 2 Cherubs that would cover the mercy seat; that is why the Lord called the man a covering Cherub in Ezekiel. This was because he overshadowed, or covered up the Truth.

I understand it in a different way. When he was the "king of Tyrus" he was perfect. Then he was the anointed cherub, the covering cherub...in the first age....before his rebellion.

Ezekiel 28:14-15 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


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He was demoted to the prince of Tyrus (also prince of the world, prince of the air) once "iniquity was found" in him. No longer the covering cherub. So, I don't believe the cherubs were to "cover up the truth" but were to protect it. They are as, or are the same as, the cherubs in the garden:

Genesis 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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They protect the way to the Tree. Their sword of truth clears the path for us.

But you also have to keep in mind that Satan is known as the prince of( the air,) meaning he cannot be seen with the naked eye. The carnal mind always wants to put a face to a name, but spirits are spirits. And just as the Lord's Holy Spirit works in many, so does this spirit of the devil, ( which is the spirit of the flesh) works also in many.

I agree that his spirit works in our flesh...but I don't believe that negates his form. Angelic beings have mass...they eat, sit, walk, talk. They are spiritual but that doesn't mean they are whispy clouds. They're just more than natural beings...they are super-natural.


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I just noticed you have posted another comment...I'll go ahead and post this one and then spend time on your other.

It is a pleasure to discuss things with you.


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[1whirlwind]

Whirlwind, I wanted to prove this ( many) point to you by scripture.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 we see this mystery of iniquity was already at work in Paul's time; which also shows how those flood waters were already released out of the mouth of the serpent way back then.

But notice in verse 8 we are told ( that) Wicked shall be revealed, not refering to a man. And then in verse 9 we see it says; " Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". We see here that he will be like Satan. But pay close attention how Paul describes " him" in verse 10-12.

" And with all decievableness of unrighteousness ( in them) that perish; because ( they) recieved not the love of the truth, that ( they) might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send ( them) strong delusion, that ( they) should believe a lie. That ( they all) might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Clearly by this description ( that Wicked) is more than just one man, but many.

I agree....The Wicked are many. But, who comes after that?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
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My understanding of that passage is that iniquity has been working since the garden. There are those that allow it...that was me before I was called. I letteth until my "old man" was taken out of the way. When the Lord came to me then the wicked was revealed...and that was me. He consumed and destroyed that person with His brightness. He does that to all that stop letting him live in them.

But, that is the "working of Satan" in us. One comes after that time, after the working of Satan. Jesus shall destroy "him" even though he arrives with "all power, signs and lying wonders."


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[InSpiritInTruth]

Whirlwind, going back to which came first; flesh or spirit. I believe you might have looked over the verse you quoted, which I also quoted from in 1 Corinthians 15:46; " Howbiet that ( was not first which is spiritual), but that which is natural; and (afterward) that which is spiritual."

I don't believe it can be stated any clearer than that. But anyway, getting back to the covering Cherubs, which overshadowed the mercy seat. What I want you to do is visualize all these signs in your mind which the Lord gave us throughout scriptures. I am just to going to quote this by memory, but I trust you know the scriptures as well.

The Lord told the children of Israel that he would speak to them from ( between the 2 Cherubs) and above the mercy seat. Now the mercy seat being above the law showed how Gods mercy is also above the law and commandments. But by the Lord saying he would speak to them from (between) the 2 Cherubs I believe also gives us a sign they were in the way.

Remember the Lord had to( part) the Red sea so that the children of Israel could pass over. The Lord also( parted) the Jordan River so they could pass over. Jonathan also went ( between) the 2 sharp rocks on his way to slay the Philistines, And Samson brought the house down by standing ( between) the 2 middle pillars on which the house stood and pushed them apart in order to bring the house down.

Elijah also ( parted) the Jordan before he was ( parted) from Elisha, and the Lord would spiritually part the Mount of Olives when he came, half to the North, and half to the south; which also shows the divided kingdom. Jesus would also( part the way) while on the cross, with a man on his right, and a man on his left. All of these signs showed us a parting of the ( way), to make (a way) for Gods children to pass over.

And just as the waters of the sea made it impassible, or because of that Great Mountain that was in way made it to hard to pass. The Lord would make a way from between the 2, that his children might pass through.

And just like those 2 thieves that were crucified with Jesus, one would mock him, and the other would praise him and be saved. One would be cast out, and the other would be with the Lord in paradise. That is why I believe that one of those Cherubs covered up the Truth, and that is why he is called the covering Cherub. And I have no doubt he is of the first-born.

 

[1whirlwind]

Whirlwind, going back to which came first; flesh or spirit. I believe you might have looked over the verse you quoted, which I also quoted from in 1 Corinthians 15:46; " Howbiet that ( was not first which is spiritual), but that which is natural; and (afterward) that which is spiritual."

I don't believe it can be stated any clearer than that.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.


15:30-41 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

The seed is planted in the ground as the spirit is planted in the body. That is how we begin. Where it is asked, "With what body do they come," the answer is in the body of the seed, the spiritual body, the celestial body is how we come.
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When you read....
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15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

You must ask...what is meant? As we are "sown a natural body" then the beginning, the seed that is sown, is already an entity.
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15:44-45 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The spirit, the "it," is sown into flesh..."sown a natural body." This is what being "born again" means. It was improperly translated and is properly rendered as....born from above. We must first be born from above when the spirit/seed is planted into flesh/natural body and then we must raised a spiritual body.
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I'll have to wait until later to reply to the rest of your post....have to get ready for work now.



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[1whirlwind]

But anyway, getting back to the covering Cherubs, which overshadowed the mercy seat. What I want you to do is visualize all these signs in your mind which the Lord gave us throughout scriptures. I am just to going to quote this by memory, but I trust you know the scriptures as well.

The Lord told the children of Israel that he would speak to them from ( between the 2 Cherubs) and above the mercy seat. Now the mercy seat being above the law showed how Gods mercy is also above the law and commandments. But by the Lord saying he would speak to them from (between) the 2 Cherubs I believe also gives us a sign they were in the way.

"In the way," or facing each other in battle?

Remember the Lord had to( part) the Red sea so that the children of Israel could pass over. The Lord also( parted) the Jordan River so they could pass over. Jonathan also went ( between) the 2 sharp rocks on his way to slay the Philistines, And Samson brought the house down by standing ( between) the 2 middle pillars on which the house stood and pushed them apart in order to bring the house down.

Elijah also ( parted) the Jordan before he was ( parted) from Elisha, and the Lord would spiritually part the Mount of Olives when he came, half to the North, and half to the south; which also shows the divided kingdom. Jesus would also( part the way) while on the cross, with a man on his right, and a man on his left. All of these signs showed us a parting of the ( way), to make (a way) for Gods children to pass over.

And just as the waters of the sea made it impassible, or because of that Great Mountain that was in way made it to hard to pass. The Lord would make a way from between the 2, that his children might pass through.

And just like those 2 thieves that were crucified with Jesus, one would mock him, and the other would praise him and be saved. One would be cast out, and the other would be with the Lord in paradise. That is why I believe that one of those Cherubs covered up the Truth, and that is why he is called the covering Cherub. And I have no doubt he is of the first-born.

I believe you are correct about the meaning of the "covering cherub." In reading the passage again, when speaking to the king of Tyrus, God said....

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.



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From the tense given....he IS NOW the one anointed to cover...God set him in this position. He was perfect before his rebellion but..because of his rebellion...he is now the "waster."

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

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He is anointed, chosen by God, to cover. What does he cover? Truth. The word cover can be used as in protect or to keep from view. Because of his rebellion he was chosen to keep truth from us. And...he does.


So, from the examples you gave, I now see the two covering the mercy seat as good and evil, Truth and Lies...facing each other.


Thank you for showing this to me...and others.


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[InSpiritInTruth]

Going back to your first point. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I believe you are reading to much into what Paul was tring to show concerning the ( outward suit) or the fleshy suit we shall all put off.

Truly the ( flesh profits nothing), but it is the ( Spirit that makes alive).

Many people thought they would be raised up in the same corruptable fleshy body, but Paul was trying to tell them that they shall be given a new ( glorified body). They would be transformed from the corruptable, into the incorruptable. But this (outward suit) has nothing to do with the life force that dwells within, which is the ( Spirit of Life.)

What Paul was saying in a ( nutshell), pardon the humor. If you were an acorn, and you died by separtion from the ( life) of the tree. When your body is dead, your outward shell is then (sown in the ground), and you are not going to be raised back up an acorn again. But you will become more like that Mighty Oak from where you were first given ( Life).

And as long as you have that ( Spirit of Life) working in you, then it does not matter what sort of suit you wear. Peace.

 

[Lookingupnow]

I don't mean to pop your bubble but the man of sin is an actual person, a man, who is the leader of a large coalition government and is empowered by the devil.

How else can the man stand in the temple of God and proclaim himself to be God, eh?

How else can he make war, entering Egypt, command armies, force submission, change the economic system, and have everybody bow down and worship him?

 

[1whirlwind]

Going back to your first point. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I believe you are reading to much into what Paul was tring to show concerning the ( outward suit) or the fleshy suit we shall all put off.

Truly the ( flesh profits nothing), but it is the ( Spirit that makes alive).

Many people thought they would be raised up in the same corruptable fleshy body, but Paul was trying to tell them that they shall be given a new ( glorified body). They would be transformed from the corruptable, into the incorruptable. But this (outward suit) has nothing to do with the life force that dwells within, which is the ( Spirit of Life.)

What Paul was saying in a ( nutshell), pardon the humor. If you were an acorn, and you died by separtion from the ( life) of the tree. When your body is dead, your outward shell is then (sown in the ground), and you are not going to be raised back up an acorn again. But you will become more like that Mighty Oak from where you were first given ( Life).

And as long as you have that ( Spirit of Life) working in you, then it does not matter what sort of suit you wear. Peace.

Paul was stressing that but you are overlooking an important part....the beginning of our flesh life is from a seed. That seed is our spirit, our spirit that was with our Father, (from above), was placed in our flesh bodies and returns to Him when our flesh dies.

This is an important point, I think one of the mysteries we are to know so....I'll repeat the quotes I gave previously. Please read over them again:


1 Corinthians 15:35-38 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what BODY DO THEY COME? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

It isn't "with what body do they go" but "with what body do they come." We come to earth, from above, in our spirit body.
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15:44-45 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The spirit, the "it," is sown into flesh..."sown a natural body." This is what being "born again" means. It was improperly translated and is properly rendered as....born from above. We must first be born from above when the spirit/seed is planted into flesh/natural body and then we must raised a spiritual body.


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Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We can only return to a place if we came from that place. We came from above in a spiritual body, went into a flesh body, return in the same spiritual body leaving dust/flesh behind.
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[InSpiritInTruth]

I understood the point you were making, as I believe you also understood mine. Peace

 

[heweeps]

We are made in the image of God. God is a 3 part being so man must be a 3 part being.
I think our flesh in conjunction with our soul corrupts our spirit. When we are born again we receive a new spirit and basically the old spirit we are born with dies. We start to put on Christ.

I think there is a flesh world in which we will see this man enter into the physical temple in Jerisalem and we will see this spirit enter into the temple of flesh which Gods Holy Spirit dwells in.

Its funny, when I read the old testament I see me in the story of Israel and I also see the story of the church.

keith

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Truly, the natural was just a sign of better things to come in the true spiritual.

 

[dannybias46]

666
Man at his worst sin

The duration of the old Assyrian Empire was 666 years before it was conquered by Babylon.
Jerusalem was trodden down by the Roman Empire exactly 666 years from the battle of Actium BC 31 to the Saracen conquest in AD 636.
Goliath height was 6 cubits
6 pieces of armour
600 shekels of iron on spear head
(1 Samuel 17:4-7)

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Goliath was a sign of time, which his stature was 9.9 feet tall. Just as Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised, and just as the ark of the tabernacle was 5.5 cubits total; or 99 inches. All of these have to do with a fulfilling of time, just as the mark of the beast, or 666.

I wrote a post in the unorthodox theology section called the True Meaning of 666 if you care to read it. But put your spiritual thinking cap on, because many will not be able to recieve it.

 

[Barraco]

Whirlwind, I wanted to prove this ( many) point to you by scripture.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 we see this mystery of iniquity was already at work in Paul's time; which also shows how those flood waters were already released out of the mouth of the serpent way back then.

But notice in verse 8 we are told ( that) Wicked shall be revealed, not refering to a man. And then in verse 9 we see it says; " Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". We see here that he will be like Satan. But pay close attention how Paul describes " him" in verse 10-12.

" And with all decievableness of unrighteousness ( in them) that perish; because ( they) recieved not the love of the truth, that ( they) might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send ( them) strong delusion, that ( they) should believe a lie. That ( they all) might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Clearly by this description ( that Wicked) is more than just one man, but many.

Good eye InSpirit,

Also, you might want to consider what Paul said about those that lived by the flesh in Romans 1:18-32.

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."



Now, consider the days after the Diocletian persecution was ended by Constantine the Great. If you recall, Christianity made a huge compromise that enable the pagans described in Romans 1 to retain their rituals while using Christian names and concepts to make the conversion culturally acceptable to the common people.

When the Roman Empire fell and Barbarians took over the Roman provinces, the common people came in conflict with Christian tenants again, favoring an angry God over a merciful God. The tension was at last settled when Charles the Great (Charlemagne) conquered western Gaul and struck a deal with the bishop of Rome that granted protection of Church practice in exchange for the pope crowning him 'imperator Augustus.' Since the days of the Barbarians, in which the bishop of Rome had protected the city, the Roman See was opt to strike political deals with the powerful rulers in exchange for protection of the church.


This exchange was done several times and was reminiscent of when the Jews declared to Pontius Pilate when they rejected Jesus, "We have one king, Caesar!"

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Well said Barraco, Notice what Jesus said in Matthew 22:20 concerning the image on the money after the Pharisees had tempted him. Jesus said; " Whose is( this image) and inscription."

Revelation 13:15; " And he had power to (give life) unto (the image) of the beast."

Sure is hard( to live) without money these days isn't it?

Revelation 13:15; " that (the image) of the beast should both( speak,)"

What is that old saying they have? Oh yea, ( money talks).

Revelation 13:15; " And as many as would not worship( the image) of the beast should be killed."

Again without that money, which has( the image of a man) on it, a person would not be able to pay his bills, or buy groceries, meaning eventually they would die.

Just as it says in Revelation 13:17: " no man might( buy or sell,) except he have the mark."

Truly, many have worshipped (this image,) but Jesus said in Matthew 22:21; " Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

 

[NightHawkeye]

Well said Barraco, Notice what Jesus said in Matthew 22:20 concerning the image on the money after the Pharisees had tempted him. Jesus said; " Whose is( this image) and inscription."

Revelation 13:15; " And he had power to (give life) unto (the image) of the beast."

Sure is hard( to live) without money these days isn't it?

Revelation 13:15; " that (the image) of the beast should both( speak,)"

What is that old saying they have? Oh yea, ( money talks).

Revelation 13:15; " And as many as would not worship( the image) of the beast should be killed."

Again without that money, which has( the image of a man) on it, a person would not be able to pay his bills, or buy groceries, meaning eventually they would die.

Just as it says in Revelation 13:17: " no man might( buy or sell,) except he have the mark."

Truly, many have worshipped (this image,) but Jesus said in Matthew 22:21; " Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

To further expand on this topic ...

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
​

Worshipping money is certainly a problem, yet money itself appears not to be ... to add context from earlier verses ...

1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
​

Even in parables money was not treated as evil ...

Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
​

Consider that the servant who ignored money is the one who was cast into outer darkness ...


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