Man is god in embryo

[St_Worm2]

Hi David! I acknowledge that. And then it always baffles me why traditional Christians act like the idea of the Father having one is so offensive.

Official LDS theology doesn't touch on this. As you stated: from the NT, we observe resurrected Jesus did eat, so eating certainly seems possible. Beyond that, we don't know (lack of evidence one way or another).

Hi again Jane , Jews and Christians try to stop short of calling God the Father something He isn't Biblically, or adding something to His nature that doesn't seem to be true of it, Biblically, such as a human body/nature. IOW, we try to stick with what the Bible teaches us He is and/or possesses (as well what He isn't and/or does not possess). I hope that makes sense

Yours and His,
David

 

[smaneck]

Hi again Jane , Jews and Christians try to stop short of calling God the Father something He isn't Biblically, or adding something to His nature that doesn't seem to be true of it, Biblically, such as a human body/nature. IOW, we try to stick with what the Bible teaches us He is and/or possesses (as well what He isn't and/or does not possess).

Yet, as I suggested the Biblical conceptions of God evolved. Granted, however, by that measure the Mormon concept strikes me as regressive.

 

[Albion]

It has been said of the critics of the LDS faith that it is blasphemy to think that man could be god. They claim that to do so would some how take away from the glory of God. If man were able to reach perfection over eons of time wouldn't that add to the glory of God as this person continues to worship God through the eternities?

Sounds a lot like the sin that got Adam, doesn't it?

 

[fatboys]

Sounds a lot like the sin that got Adam, doesn't it?

To become like the Father wasn't the lie. The apple represents the choice of knowledge. Knowing the the opposites of all things. If we do not know the opposites we cannot gain knowledge. If all we knew was good we wouldn't know evil. But because we only knew good we wouldn't know it was good. The same is true of evil. If all we knew was evil we wouldn't know good but we wouldn't know that what we were doing was evil either.

 

[Albion]

To become like the Father wasn't the lie. The apple represents the choice of knowledge. Knowing the the opposites of all things. If we do not know the opposites we cannot gain knowledge. If all we knew was good we wouldn't know evil. But because we only knew good we wouldn't know it was good. The same is true of evil. If all we knew was evil we wouldn't know good but we wouldn't know that what we were doing was evil either.

Let's consult the Bible in order to settle this one.

"And the serpent said to the woman, ye shall not surely die; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as God (note: or gods), knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

 

[Jane_Doe]

Let's consult the Bible in order to settle this one.

"And the serpent said to the woman, ye shall not surely die; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as God (note: or gods), knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

I highlighted the lie in the snake's words. Eating of the Tree did bring death: death of the physical body (pretty self-explainitory) and death of the spiritual (our separation from God). Without the Savior, eating of the tree doomed us all.

 

[ViaCrucis]

To become like the Father wasn't the lie. The apple represents the choice of knowledge. Knowing the the opposites of all things. If we do not know the opposites we cannot gain knowledge. If all we knew was good we wouldn't know evil. But because we only knew good we wouldn't know it was good. The same is true of evil. If all we knew was evil we wouldn't know good but we wouldn't know that what we were doing was evil either.

This presumes that the "knowledge of good and evil" is really just a matter of intellect, like knowing the difference between an apple and an orange, or up from down.

But we should be able to ascertain from the story that Adam and Eve knew what they should do and what they shouldn't do. So they knew the difference between should and shouldn't, between right and wrong.

I'd offer instead that the knowledge of good and evil was not intended to speak of discerning right and wrong; but instead to have a more intimate knowledge of good and evil--that is, they were no longer innocent, they then were able to perceive their nakedness, they felt shame, and guilt, sin and evil were now part of the human condition wherein before it had not been. Man had now what he had not before--the inclination for evil, or what (as I understand it) in Judaism is known as the yetzer hara.

In orthodox Christianity this story is the origin of the ideas of Original and/or Ancestral Sin. And has been discussed in many ways throughout Christian history.

What we have here is not a moral enlightenment, but the introduction of a malformity to the human condition. The creature made to be God's image-bearer within creation is, in some sense, failing to be that in the way that it was supposed to be. The human creature now sins--misses the mark, fails to do what it ought to do--and suffers now as consequence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoAmmi]

I highlighted the lie in the snake's words. Eating of the Tree did bring death: death of the physical body (pretty self-explainitory) and death of the spiritual (our separation from God). Without the Savior, eating of the tree doomed us all.

What I find amazing, as someone who practices Judaism, is that this concept which is central to Christianity, cannot really be found in the Tanakh. I can't imagine why it was kept a big secret from us.

 

[LoAmmi]

Man had now what he had not before--the inclination for evil, or what (as I understand it) in Judaism is known as the yetzer hara.

Difficult concept really. It isn't so much the inclination to do evil, but an inclination which could become evil. For example, it's the part of us that has ambition, which is a good thing, but that ambition can turn into greed or an ability to step on others to get to the top, which is an evil.

There's a story that one day the rabbis found a way to seal the evil inclination away in a box. The next day they went out and found that nobody went to work, nobody desired to have children, nobody was trying to find a wife or husband. They realized that we needed the evil inclination in order to do these things.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Difficult concept really. It isn't so much the inclination to do evil, but an inclination which could become evil. For example, it's the part of us that has ambition, which is a good thing, but that ambition can turn into greed or an ability to step on others to get to the top, which is an evil.

There's a story that one day the rabbis found a way to seal the evil inclination away in a box. The next day they went out and found that nobody went to work, nobody desired to have children, nobody was trying to find a wife or husband. They realized that we needed the evil inclination in order to do these things.

Yes, I was reading a bit (Wikipedia, not the best I know), and the idea seemed to involve the naturally good things which can become used for ill.

In Christianity, at least as we go back to the ancient Church fathers, there is an insistence that evil doesn't have a real, objective existence. Evil is described, by analogy, as darkness to light; darkness being the absence of light rather than a thing itself. Evil therefore doesn't exist in the technical sense, but rather evil is what happens when the ordinarily good things are malformed, twisted, or deprived. When the natural appetites are perverted to do wrong and commit injustice against our neighbor. There is no cosmic evil.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[St_Worm2]

There's a story that one day the rabbis found a way to seal the evil inclination away in a box. The next day they went out and found that nobody went to work, nobody desired to have children, nobody was trying to find a wife or husband. They realized that we needed the evil inclination in order to do these things.

Hi LoAmmi, if that's true, that anytime anything is done in this world it's the result of evil under control, or evil out of control, then what does that tell us about the Almighty (and what drives Him to do all that He does/has done)?

Thanks!

--David

 

[LoAmmi]

Hi LoAmmi, if that's true, that anytime anything is done in this world it's the result of evil under control, or evil out of control, then what does that tell us about the Almighty (and what drives Him to do all that He does/has done)?

Thanks!

--David

Ignore the word evil there. It's technically considered a bad (but currently the best to English) translation. The basic idea is that the same motivations that drive us to do things like work, strive to do better, and the like, are different than the motivations that cause us to keep the Torah or the Noahide laws for gentiles or do the right thing. If you follow that, it means that the motivations for keeping the Torah shouldn't be those things that can become bad like ambition.

 

[Robban]

I highlighted the lie in the snake's words. Eating of the Tree did bring death: death of the physical body (pretty self-explainitory) and death of the spiritual (our separation from God). Without the Savior, eating of the tree doomed us all.

It was said to Cain,
"Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you?
if you do not improve,
however, at the entrance sin is lying.and to you is it,s longing,

but you can rule over it." (Changed a Word, from overcome to rule)

(the evil inclination)

 

[smaneck]

Difficult concept really. It isn't so much the inclination to do evil, but an inclination which could become evil. For example, it's the part of us that has ambition, which is a good thing, but that ambition can turn into greed or an ability to step on others to get to the top, which is an evil.

There's a story that one day the rabbis found a way to seal the evil inclination away in a box. The next day they went out and found that nobody went to work, nobody desired to have children, nobody was trying to find a wife or husband. They realized that we needed the evil inclination in order to do these things.

Connected with this I think is the role of the imagination appears to play in evil according to the Tanakh. As Genesis 8:21 puts it "For the imagination of a man is evil from his youth." Martin Buber wrote an interesting essay on the topic of the problematic nature of imagination in his book Good and Evil. He says: "Imagery, 'the depictions of the heart' (Psalm 73:7), is play with possibility, play as self- temptation, from whichever and again violence springs. It too, like the deed of the first humans, does not proceed from a decision; but the place of the real perceived fruit has been taken by a possible, devised, fabricated one which, however, can be made, could be made--is made into the real one.

This imagery of the possible, and in this its nature, is called evil. Good is not devised; the former is evil because it distracts from divine reality. . . . imagination is not entirely evil, it is evil and good, for in the midst of it and from out of it decision can arouse the heart's willing direction toward Him, master the vortex of possibility and realize the human figure purposed in the creation. . ." (p.91) In other words the imagination, insofar as it can imagine that which is other than God's will, is the root of all evil. Yet from it alone arises the free will which is able to submit to God.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi smaneck, while I agree that the imagination is clearly involved, I think mankind's "imagination" suffers greatly from the effects of the Fall. Our imaginations are driven by the desires of our hearts which, in our fallen state, are no longer inclined towards God (i.e. - Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3). As a result, we often find ourselves focused on things that are evil (Genesis 8:21), rather than on things that are good.

These effects are, in fact, still so pervasive, that even those of us who are born again of God (and have been given the power by God needed to overcome our sinful desires) still need to be reminded where our focus, and thereby, our imagination, needs to be (like St. Paul's admonition in Philippians 4:8). It is our "nature" and our heat's inclinations that so often drive our imaginations toward that which is evil.

Yours and His,
David

"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right,
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute,
if there is any excellence and anything worthy of praise,
let your mind dwell on these things"
Phil 4:8​